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I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 5:40:06 PM

AH4Ever

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I'm playing a solo game USSR vs AI. v1.70Beta

Romania (AI) refused to cede territory and was getting close to joining the Axis. I decided to declare war on Romania which triggered the shock events as if Germany had attacked. I don't know if this can be made not to happen but I feel it should be changed. Any events that state Germany has attacked or conquered shouldn't fire until Germany actually does attack or conquer.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 8:34:21 PM

Flaviusx

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Ironically, this is to the advantage of the Sovs. I'd rather waste the shock penalties on the Romanians than the Germans.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 8:40:39 PM

cpdeyoung

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I would be surprised if you were not at war with the whole of the Axis just now. Romania has probably joined the Axis, and her "big brothers" will be coming to call I think. Welcome to World War Two, Comrade.

Chuck

< Message edited by cpdeyoung -- 12/14/2009 8:41:13 PM >

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 10:00:35 PM

AH4Ever

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I knew going in that declaring against Romania would put me at war with the Axis. My concern is with the historical flavor of the situation. It's August '40, Germany is still

mopping up in France while planning to invade the British Isles and the mere declaration of war has the Soviets Quaking in their boots. There is a new event that has Stalin

hiding in one of those infamous undisclosed locations while putting Zhukov in charge. Then there is the event that has Germany setting policy on how to handle

conquered Russia before they even set foot across the border. I have to say for me this is a bit much.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 10:25:28 PM

gwgardner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AH4Ever

I knew going in that declaring against Romania would put me at war with the Axis. My concern is with the historical flavor of the situation. It's August '40, Germany is still

mopping up in France while planning to invade the British Isles and the mere declaration of war has the Soviets Quaking in their boots. There is a new event that has Stalin

hiding in one of those infamous undisclosed locations while putting Zhukov in charge. Then there is the event that has Germany setting policy on how to handle

conquered Russia before they even set foot across the border. I have to say for me this is a bit much.

You of course have a legitimate concern. The event scripts are not yet well-enough defined or implemented to take into consideration enough variables to make them always sensible.

We have a set of basic event scripts right now. Someone, either a modder or a developer, would have to make the script triggers much more detailed in order to avoid anomolies like the one you're experiencing.

Only if the player base becomes large enough to attract more modders will we see the changes that are needed. I doubt that the developers would have event scripting high on their list of changes.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 10:39:28 PM

vonRocko

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quote:

I doubt that the developers would have event scripting high on their list of changes.

That is too bad.The developers made events an important part of the game, and they can't even get them right. Don't tell me it is too hard to keep a German\Russian event from firing with Russian\Romanian activity. Pitiful!

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 10:51:42 PM

doomtrader

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Do you really think that Russians were ready for war in 1940 with anybody?

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 11:11:52 PM

gwgardner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

That is too bad.The developers made events an important part of the game, and they can't even get them right. Don't tell me it is too hard to keep a German\Russian event from firing with Russian\Romanian activity. Pitiful!

I just think that the developers can only do so much. Take a look at HOI2. The modders made it great. Scripting is time-consuming. The developers have better things to do, fixing bugs, making new content, new games. They have to make a living. In this instance, the wording of the event is what is awkward, not the effect. It would have been more plausible if it had said generically, that the Russkies were taking an effectiveness hit because they were unprepared for proper offensive operations.

If the developers found that the event scripting was THE thing holding ToW back, then they would probably invest in it. Otherwise ... leave it to the modders.

Since I don't want to take the time myself, to do any extensive modding, when I play this game or any other, and come upon something that is rather awkward, such as this event, I have to put it in the category of plausible 'what-if.' It kind of makes sense, for instance, that the Soviet army might find that it is handicapped by doctrine or supply or material, upon attacking Romania - just as happened in real life when they attacked Finland.

< Message edited by gwgardner -- 12/14/2009 11:14:57 PM >

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 11:47:48 PM

Flaviusx

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AH4Ever

I knew going in that declaring against Romania would put me at war with the Axis. My concern is with the historical flavor of the situation. It's August '40, Germany is still

mopping up in France while planning to invade the British Isles and the mere declaration of war has the Soviets Quaking in their boots. There is a new event that has Stalin

hiding in one of those infamous undisclosed locations while putting Zhukov in charge. Then there is the event that has Germany setting policy on how to handle

conquered Russia before they even set foot across the border. I have to say for me this is a bit much.

That script actually fires off anytime Barbarossa starts. You see the same text in summer 1941.

It's a nod at what happened in real life, as a matter of fact: Stalin ducked out of sight for a few days following 22 June 1941, and various accounts claim that he shut himself in his dacha and more or less had a nervous breakdown. At any rate, he reappered a week or so later and gave a radio speech to rally the Soviet people, so if he lost his marbles he got them back quickly enough.

By mid July he was sufficiently cheerful to resume his old habits and started shooting officers left and right, including most of the Western Front command. Nothing like a good purge to stiffen the spine.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/14/2009 11:53:15 PM

vonRocko

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I agree with most of your post. I do have a problem with this line:

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

Scripting is time-consuming. The developers have better things to do, fixing bugs, making new content, new games.

Shouldn't the scripting be done before releasing a game? If a developer wants to have scripting as an important part of the game,like this game,shouldn't they make sure the events fire in a logical manner and have correct descriptions of such events? Or do they have better things to do?
This "let the costumer(modder) fix it" attitude is for the birds. Maybe when their next game is released I will have "better things to do".

Thanks

(in reply to gwgardner)

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 12:05:21 AM

cpdeyoung

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Perhaps the event might be called "The Soviets realize that their armed forces, nearly leaderless, and coming from a land where initiative was punished harshly, are not ready for the Finns, the Romanians, the Poles, and especially not the Germans."

The decision on policy toward captured lands is called for at the beginning of the war, it takes a while to put together a murder aparatus.

We, the players from the "future" know the Germans are trouble, and we would not choose to kill our experienced military men, nor would we put troop concentrations in the "wrong" place. If the penalty were not there the player led Soviets would indeed be tough guys, as I, and others, have shown in Soviet AARs. The penalty is there to try an simulate the actual problems the poor, scrambling Soviet leaders had at the time. RtV had the driver of the harsh winter of 41-42, this game has a variant on that, and the penalty. If you are playing the Germans the penalty evaporates too soon, for your Soviets, probably, it will seem quite awhile.

Chuck

(in reply to Flaviusx)

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 1:47:21 AM

Razz1

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Russia attacking Romania in 1940 is not historical..

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 4:03:17 AM

Maximeba

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I happen to agree with Chuck, you need the penalty to keep the Russians in check. As a matter of fact the penalty probably is not severe enough. The Germans have no chance at winning the game fighting a two front war. If you are playing against another opponent with no bars hold, you could see the US lending pp's to France in 1939. As a German player try winning that game.

Wes
Allies For Ever

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 5:20:11 AM

gwgardner

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Shouldn't the scripting be done before releasing a game? If a developer wants to have scripting as an important part of the game,like this game,shouldn't they make sure the events fire in a logical manner and have correct descriptions of such events? Or do they have better things to do?
This "let the costumer(modder) fix it" attitude is for the birds. Maybe when their next game is released I will have "better things to do".
Thanks

I hasten to emphasize that I have absolutely no knowledge of the developer's intent or plans, so anything I've said is strictly BS.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 9:08:54 AM

Anraz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vonRocko

Shouldn't the scripting be done before releasing a game?

In ToW there are almost 2 000 deferent scripts....

And in this case, giving the state of Soviet army in 1940, the event is quite logical, Chuck made perfect remark on the subject:

quote:

ORIGINAL: cpdeyoung

Perhaps the event might be called "The Soviets realize that their armed forces, nearly leaderless, and coming from a land where initiative was punished harshly, are not ready for the Finns, the Romanians, the Poles, and especially not the Germans."

< Message edited by Anraz -- 12/15/2009 9:10:30 AM >

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 12:51:33 PM

Harbinger

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quote:

I hasten to emphasize that I have absolutely no knowledge of the developer's intent or plans, so anything I've said is strictly BS.

I too, am a longtime member of this particular club.

< Message edited by Harbinger -- 12/15/2009 12:52:08 PM >

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 2:28:20 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

Ironically, this is to the advantage of the Sovs. I'd rather waste the shock penalties on the Romanians than the Germans.

This is too easy -> the russians wasting the shock penalties on a minor country and I do not think this is in the spirit of the game.

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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 3:40:57 PM

AH4Ever

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quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

You of course have a legitimate concern. The event scripts are not yet well-enough defined or implemented to take into consideration enough variables to make them always sensible.

...Someone, either a modder or a developer, would have to make the script triggers much more detailed in order to avoid anomalies like the one you're experiencing.

We can only hope that at some point the WI team will address this issue, I think it would be a matter of pride to improve the game as much as possible.

quote:

ORIGINAL: doomtrader

Do you really think that Russians were ready for war in 1940 with anybody?

It doesn't matter if they were or not, the event system demonstrates that this game was not meant to be a strictly historical simulation. Your description of how vicious the

Russians were as they occupied the area ceded by Romania, makes one ask what would Stalin have done if they had refused?

You should have a follow up event if Romania refuses to turn over territory.

quote:

ORIGINAL: gwgardner

If the developers found that the event scripting was THE thing holding ToW back, then they would probably invest in it.

quote:

ORIGINAL:Anraz

In ToW there are almost 2 000 scripts....

I feel it is what is holding ToW back and the number of scripts shows just how important they are to the game.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Maximeba

I happen to agree with Chuck, you need the penalty to keep the Russians in check. As a matter of fact the penalty probably is not severe enough.

I'm not asking that these events go away just that they trigger after the Germans actually invade.

As for severity so far in my game the two events have fired a total of three times in two turns and most of the Russian units are displaying zero combat strength.

I purchased this game because of it's old school feel. The "What If" nature is what I most enjoy and I would like to see it improved.

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You weren't there Thursday... You MISSED it!

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/15/2009 6:27:33 PM

Flaviusx

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I'll confirm what AH4 is saying about the zero strength. This is happening to me as well in a more conventional summer 1941 game without the Romanian weirdness. It's being applied somewhat spottily, however, units in Bessarabia and in the various border towns (Lvov, Brest Litovsk, etc.) are retaining some of their combat value. Deeper inside the Soviet Union, all unit strengths are set to zero.

It's not game breaking against the AI, which, if anything, needs all the help it can get, but in a player versus player situation could be a bit much.

That said, I agree completely with Chuck on the need for shock penalties. The 1940 Red Army wasn't ready for prime time against anybody. (Victor Suvorov and his Icebreaker silliness notwithstanding, but that's an entirely different rant.)

The script text doesn't bother me, either.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 3:36:12 AM

Manalishi

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Well... I was gonna say something, then realized it was pointless and contributed little to the discussion. Sorry.

<M>

< Message edited by Manalishi -- 12/16/2009 3:49:36 AM >

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 8:59:10 AM

Tomokatu

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Manalishi posted:

quote:

Well... I was gonna say something, then realized it was pointless and contributed little to the discussion. Sorry

.
Please accept this Order of Common Sense, Second Class with Public Awareness clasp.
Congratulations, citizen, your restraint is a model of decorum.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 10:05:13 AM

cpdeyoung

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Remember that the units strength is now rounded down on the counter face. Check the unit display for the unrounded strength, which may be just below one, and thus displays as zero when rounded.

A unit at fractional strength is usable, not strong, but usable, and often is the best you have. Fractional strength units can survive combat, and the odds calculations are done with the decimals, not the rounded values.

Chuck

(in reply to Tomokatu)

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 1:18:39 PM

AH4Ever

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Just a sample of the majority of units available after 3 turns in which the shock events fired 4 times. The one about Stalin hiding (sorry I've forgotten the title)along with the Initial Shock event, followed by Initial Shock twice more. From what I see the penalties seem to be accumulative.

Attachment (1)

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JJMC

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 2:11:48 PM

Flaviusx

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Chuck, I think it's going to be a bit much in player v player. That for me is the main objection. In fact, in a player versus player game, this little change is probably going to convince me to declare preemptive war on Germany in 1940 while they are still mired in France.

I'd rather eat a 30 point morale hit than 10 turns of fractional strength units against a Wehrmacht throwing everything it's got at me. They'll just overrun everything and march straight east for for that time period.

Edit: my incentive for doing this is even stronger now that WE doesn't grow much from wars on minors, btw. There is very little reason now for the Soviets to wait it out until 1941. The comrades are going to jump into WWII the moment they're sure Hitler's boys are mostly busy in France.

< Message edited by Flaviusx -- 12/16/2009 2:19:43 PM >

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 2:42:03 PM

micheljq

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Flaviusx

That said, I agree completely with Chuck on the need for shock penalties. The 1940 Red Army wasn't ready for prime time against anybody. (Victor Suvorov and his Icebreaker silliness notwithstanding, but that's an entirely different rant.)

I agree with that a good example is how they were against Finland, with 10:1 odds in their favor.

_____________________________

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"Patriotism is a virtue of the vicious" - Oscar Wilde
"History is a set of lies agreed upon" - Napoleon Bonaparte after the battle of Waterloo, june 18th, 1815

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 3:42:24 PM

cpdeyoung

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I do not think the penalties are meant to be accumulative.

Perhaps someone from development could take a look at this.

@FlaviusX : I agree, and would get into a war with the Axis as soon as possible. I would consider it from turn one. Developers please take note of this tendency, as I believe it is taking the game in a direction you might not have anticipated.

Chuck

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 4:14:14 PM

Harbinger

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I'll just continue to read the event files and study the Event engine. And, of course keep playing the game!

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 5:32:40 PM

Flaviusx

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Y'know, a turn 1 declaration of war actually makes sense. Poland by itself could take a half dozen turns for the Germans to chew through, mostly eliminating the shock period for the Sovs. In this situation the brave Polish army more or less acts as the forward defense of the Red Army while it sorts itself out.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 6:25:16 PM

AH4Ever

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Just in case you haven't already noticed, the best way for the USSR to declare war early is to do so against Romania. It will put you at war with the Axis without taking a social unrest hit.

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RE: I'm Shocked By Initial Shock - 12/16/2009 8:13:56 PM

Uxbridge

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Warning!! Don't do the following yourself.

By removing events 370 and 371 in events_03_soviets the problem is gone. If you do this the USSR effectiveness goes down to 33 % for about 10-12 turns, whereafter it raises to 64 % for a period that probable ends close to summer 1942 (asuming that invasion was historical).

The problem must be in these files (or one of them), but I have no clue as regards programing, so I can't see where.

(in reply to AH4Ever)

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