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Another Devs, Beta Testers and Experianced players - 12/16/2009 9:24:29 PM   
Kingmaker

 

Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		HiHi

Background

T9. Having secured ‘Enforced peace’ with Prussia & Russia as part of the Partition of Poland treaties I declared War on Denmark and invaded Copenhagen.

T10. Danish Army invades Malmo and destroys a Supply depot. I carry on siege of Copenhagen and set up a new Supply Chain from Courland & Kovno to Zeeland using the sea provinces, Gulf of Bothnia & Baltic Sea.

T11. On opening the Turn, I find that Denmark is now a Prussian Protectorate which has triggered a War between Sweden & Prussia and that my Sea province supply depots have been destroyed by a Prussian Diplomat in the Baltic sea and newly acquired Prussian Merchant ship in the Gulf of Bothnia that the previous Turn was Dutch (Holland still neutral; I’m assuming here that the Dutchman hasn’t sailed off and a Danish Merchant sailed in from way out of range).

Now, from other PBEM games and Forum Chat it has always been my understanding that a Minor power will not ask for Protectorate status if its proposed protector cannot freely go to war on its behalf (+ an army of 40,000 or more within 4 provinces); with Prussia & Sweden having an ‘Enforced peace’ between them, that from my experience in other games precludes Prussia forming a protectorate with Denmark.
So the questions are

a) As Denmark did a Belligerent move in T10 (invading Malmo) can it then apply for Protectorate status anyhow, i.e. it’s taken up the challenge?

b) Should it be able to become a protectorate of a Power that technically can’t protect it due to an ‘Enforced peace’?

c) Can Diplomats/Merchantmen destroy Sea Province Supply Depots?

Again a speedy responce would be appreciated as this is a PBEM game in progress.

All the Best
Peter
Post #: 1
RE: Another Devs, Beta Testers and Experianced players - 12/16/2009 10:02:03 PM   
evwalt

 

Posts: 644
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		ANSWERS (as I understand them)

a) I believe a minor without a "protector" can ALWAYS gain one, no matter the location of his forces, as long as the requirements are met (ie. usually the army of 40,000+). I have seen wars wage several turns and when an army of 40,000+ move within the required range, a Protectorate is formed with another Major Power.

b) I THINK 'enforced peace' means you can not issue a DECLARATION OF WAR (ie. by a right click on the country or by treaty). I don't believe supporting a minor is considered declaring war on another country.

One country (in this case Prussia) supports the minor (making it a Protectorate). If Sweden had "be aggressive" with Prussia turned off, I THINK Sweden would have backed down and their would be no war (though Prussia would still control Denmark).

In some more detail: as Sweden (I assume) had "be aggressive" ON, then 1) Denmark turned to Prussia for support, 2) Prussia (having "be aggressive" to Sweden ON) decided to support Denmark, making it a Protectorate, and 3) Sweden failed to back down, thus 4) because Denmark was now a protectorate of Prussia, war exists now between the two countries. (The only actual war "declared" was Sweden on Denmark. I bet if you look at Glory ratings you will find that neither Prussia or Sweden lost points for declaring war on the other).

I have seen this happen in other situations so not specific to Sweden/Denmark/Prussia.

c) On the merchants, I am 99% sure that ANY ship can destroy depots. I don't think merchant ships SHOULD be that way, but that is the rule now. Don't think diplomats can affect depots at all. Are you sure the 2nd depot wasn't lost because the chain was broken by the merchant ship?

_____________________________

Russia in "Going Again II"
France in "Quest for Glory"
Prussia in "Invitational"

(in reply to Kingmaker)
Post #: 2
RE: Another Devs, Beta Testers and Experianced players - 12/19/2009 9:58:33 AM   
Mus

 

Posts: 1759
Joined: 11/13/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: evwalt

I bet if you look at Glory ratings you will find that neither Prussia or Sweden lost points for declaring war on the other.


Right because war was declared by Prussia with cause (Sweden refused your ultimatum) in violation of your enforced peace with Sweden. Also, the enforced peace in the first place should have prevented Prussia forming a protectorate with Denmark. Denmark should have asked somebody else if they were eligible.

Two bugs in one.

The enforced peace clause that you sign with other nations is not working the same way in many respects that "enforced peace" enforced by the game engine after a surrender is working. The manual says that a party with an alliance or enforced peace with the belligerent should not form a protectorate.



< Message edited by Mus -- 12/19/2009 10:00:58 AM >

_____________________________

Mindset, Tactics, Skill, Equipment
Diligentia, Vis, Celeritas

(in reply to evwalt)
Post #: 3
RE: Another Devs, Beta Testers and Experianced players - 12/19/2009 10:45:34 AM   
Kingmaker

 

Posts: 1678
Joined: 12/27/2007
Status: offline 		HiHi

Phew! It’s not just me then that thinks the 'Enforced peace' isn't WaD, I was beginning to think I had it all wrong, I would certainly not have declared against Denmark if I thought there was any Chance of those Danish fleets aligning with a Baltic nation.

Re the Merchant ships bit, I was not aware that they could take down Supply Depots, but, that may just be because I missed it in the Rules, but what concerns me is where the Hell the Danish now Prussian MM came from and what happened to the Dutchman that was in that Sea province before.

What with Sweden loosing the Polish army, and now this Enforced peace thing going all Haywire, it looks like the AI really has a Downer on poor old Sweden in this game; send “Sympathy” folks ... or better still £5 notes.

All the Best
Peter

(in reply to Mus)
Post #: 4
RE: Another Devs, Beta Testers and Experianced players - 12/19/2009 8:49:05 PM   
evwalt

 

Posts: 644
Joined: 11/14/2007
Status: offline 		I don't feel THAT sorry for Sweden. What are you, the size of Russia now? (Damn peasants )

_____________________________

Russia in "Going Again II"
France in "Quest for Glory"
Prussia in "Invitational"

(in reply to Kingmaker)
Post #: 5
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