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Attacking atolls. - 12/19/2009 11:21:31 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		Currently it's early June 1942 in my game vs. AI, and Midway proved itself as a cursed place for Japanese. I wanted to take it mostly just because I thought I can, but while air and sea domination were easily achieved by four carriers from KB thanks to earlier victories, the results of amphibious assault vere not pretty. I brought two crack regiments from Korea and a cruiser TF to bombard, later joined by BBs and CAs separated from KB (overall, 2 battleships and 5 cruisers, not counting light cruisers and various small ships from the amphibious TF). KB also made multiple ground attacks, at the cost that unpleasantly surprised me (largely because Vals on Naval Attack and without Rest as a secondary mission decided to participate and were shredded). AI had a coast defence batallion and a Marine batallion.

In the end, my troops were completely shredded over two days. Losses during the landing were too high and following shock attacks came at 99:1 odds, so troops that reached the beach were obliterated almost completely each time. On the third day, my amphib TF decided to pick up survivors and retreat.

So, an operation that I thought will be a cakewalk turned into the stinging, if not very costly, defeat. This leads to my question: besides bringing truly overwhelming bombardment forces, can something be done to improve chances of success when attacking atolls and small islands? My amphib forces consisted mostly of fast transports, not the best troop haulers available for Japanese, but pretty close. Obviously, starving the defenders aren't going to work when attacking such outlying islands.
Post #: 1
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/19/2009 11:31:05 PM   
Andy Mac

 

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline 		If your prep level wasnt at LEAST 50% for an op like that it will kill you

100% is better but 50% is the bare bones minimum

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 2
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/19/2009 11:38:52 PM   
FOW

 

Posts: 499
Joined: 11/6/2008
From: England
Status: offline 		Did you have ships in your Amph TF carrying just supplies?
If you don't land supplies on day one your adjusted AV will be bad - like you experienced.

When attacking an atoll, only load the APs with enough troops that they will all unload in one day (used to be 800-1000 load pts in old WITP). If you fill the transports right up they will take several days to unload, and the obligitory shock attack after each days unloading will kill your units - like you experienced.

Just to start things off better, bring more BBs and schedule them to bombard for at least 3 days before you land. You need to suppress those shore guns. To help you do need to put cruisers in the Amph TF - those old 18knot CLs would be ideal to soak up the shots and give some covering fire.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 3
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 5:51:34 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Currently it's early June 1942 in my game vs. AI, and Midway proved itself as a cursed place for Japanese. I wanted to take it mostly just because I thought I can, but while air and sea domination were easily achieved by four carriers from KB thanks to earlier victories, the results of amphibious assault vere not pretty. I brought two crack regiments from Korea and a cruiser TF to bombard, later joined by BBs and CAs separated from KB (overall, 2 battleships and 5 cruisers, not counting light cruisers and various small ships from the amphibious TF). KB also made multiple ground attacks, at the cost that unpleasantly surprised me (largely because Vals on Naval Attack and without Rest as a secondary mission decided to participate and were shredded). AI had a coast defence batallion and a Marine batallion.

In the end, my troops were completely shredded over two days. Losses during the landing were too high and following shock attacks came at 99:1 odds, so troops that reached the beach were obliterated almost completely each time. On the third day, my amphib TF decided to pick up survivors and retreat.

So, an operation that I thought will be a cakewalk turned into the stinging, if not very costly, defeat. This leads to my question: besides bringing truly overwhelming bombardment forces, can something be done to improve chances of success when attacking atolls and small islands? My amphib forces consisted mostly of fast transports, not the best troop haulers available for Japanese, but pretty close. Obviously, starving the defenders aren't going to work when attacking such outlying islands.



Isn't that precisely the result predicted in SHATTERED SWORD if the Japs had managed to land historically?

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 4
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 6:15:51 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

Currently it's early June 1942 in my game vs. AI, and Midway proved itself as a cursed place for Japanese. I wanted to take it mostly just because I thought I can, but while air and sea domination were easily achieved by four carriers from KB thanks to earlier victories, the results of amphibious assault vere not pretty. I brought two crack regiments from Korea and a cruiser TF to bombard, later joined by BBs and CAs separated from KB (overall, 2 battleships and 5 cruisers, not counting light cruisers and various small ships from the amphibious TF). KB also made multiple ground attacks, at the cost that unpleasantly surprised me (largely because Vals on Naval Attack and without Rest as a secondary mission decided to participate and were shredded). AI had a coast defence batallion and a Marine batallion.

In the end, my troops were completely shredded over two days. Losses during the landing were too high and following shock attacks came at 99:1 odds, so troops that reached the beach were obliterated almost completely each time. On the third day, my amphib TF decided to pick up survivors and retreat.

So, an operation that I thought will be a cakewalk turned into the stinging, if not very costly, defeat. This leads to my question: besides bringing truly overwhelming bombardment forces, can something be done to improve chances of success when attacking atolls and small islands? My amphib forces consisted mostly of fast transports, not the best troop haulers available for Japanese, but pretty close. Obviously, starving the defenders aren't going to work when attacking such outlying islands.



Isn't that precisely the result predicted in SHATTERED SWORD if the Japs had managed to land historically?


Mike, you beat me to it. I just finished reading Shattered Sword earlier today, including the appendix analyzing the prospects for the amphibious invasion had the carrier battle gone the IJN's way.

KB land attacks: ineffective at reducing atolls defenses (as evidenced by 1 actual attack).

Naval bombardment: likely to be totally ineffective based on no doctrine, no training, no coordination, and opposition of 7" shore guns.

Assault: troops must wade over and from coral reef 200 yards offshore in most locations, but always at least 100 yards offshore. Fortifications significant and well prepared. Based on a river-crossing IJ assault later on Guadalcanal against much less well dug in USMC with much less firepower, as well as other IJ amphibious operations prior to Midway, the assault would have been crushed.

In fact, Shattered Sword predicted the result so lopsided that likely no IJ soldier or marine would make it to dry land.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 12/20/2009 6:16:52 AM >

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 5
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 8:00:51 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

If your prep level wasnt at LEAST 50% for an op like that it will kill you

100% is better but 50% is the bare bones minimum


+100 exponent!

Had my head handed to me invading Tarawa unprepared. 1st Marine Division down to 70 squads after two days. Still haven't fully recovered.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to Andy Mac)
Post #: 6
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 9:25:23 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Midway's CD guns were 5" IRL, not 7".

Having said that, the Midway Assault Force would have been in for a rough time had they tried a landing.  The Marines were reinforced and heavily dug in, with lots of barbed wire, MG's, mines, mortars and even armor available.  They may not have been as prepared as the Japanese were on Tarawa but the landing force wasn't as prepared or as experienced either.  Without a procedure, no specialized landing craft and a dug in and prepared defense, the Marines would have probably inflicted crippling losses on the assault force.

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 7
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 9:38:54 PM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Isn't that precisely the result predicted in SHATTERED SWORD if the Japs had managed to land historically?

That's why I used two whole regiments, instead of a single SNLF. They had preparation 60+ (I decided to launch Midway-Aleutian operation when KB was on return trip from its previous one). Didn't use any of the tactics proposed by FOW, though. How you can determine the per-turn unloading capability of your APs, by the way?

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 8
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 11:38:03 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		I use a minimum of x2 for transport load capacity.

10,000 troop and 20,000 equipment means 20,000 troop and 40,000 equipment TF capacity.
Plus a seperate TF carrying only supplies.

Plus the TF bombardment needs to be done the day before the invasion.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 9
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 11:42:36 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline 		Plus, don't put small escorts in the invasion.
Use stout CA's CL's and DD's.

CD's eat up the smaller ships.
Whereas the escorts will suck up and return the fire of CD batteries.

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 10
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/20/2009 11:50:06 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		It cannot be said enough to make sure prep level = 100 or is close to it. Also the idea of cruisers up close with the AP's is a must. Anything less I think you're looking for a disaster. I like the idea of x2 the required AP/AK on the initial invasion. I will try that.

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 11
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 12:20:43 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Midway's CD guns were 5" IRL, not 7".

Having said that, the Midway Assault Force would have been in for a rough time had they tried a landing.  The Marines were reinforced and heavily dug in, with lots of barbed wire, MG's, mines, mortars and even armor available.  They may not have been as prepared as the Japanese were on Tarawa but the landing force wasn't as prepared or as experienced either.  Without a procedure, no specialized landing craft and a dug in and prepared defense, the Marines would have probably inflicted crippling losses on the assault force.



According to Shattered Sword there were (in addition to the 5" guns) 2 x 7" guns on each island, facing south so that all 4 covered the shipping channel that had been blasted through the reef.

Edit: Double checked it to verify - pg 488.

< Message edited by witpqs -- 12/21/2009 12:28:08 AM >

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 12
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 12:42:14 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Plus, don't put small escorts in the invasion.
Use stout CA's CL's and DD's.

CD's eat up the smaller ships.
Whereas the escorts will suck up and return the fire of CD batteries.

The invasion TF was escorted by light cruisers. However, I should have detached fast BBs for bombardment immediately after seeing that Midway has no credible bomber airforce.

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 13
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 1:02:39 AM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl
Isn't that precisely the result predicted in SHATTERED SWORD if the Japs had managed to land historically?

That's why I used two whole regiments, instead of a single SNLF. They had preparation 60+ (I decided to launch Midway-Aleutian operation when KB was on return trip from its previous one). Didn't use any of the tactics proposed by FOW, though. How you can determine the per-turn unloading capability of your APs, by the way?


You can find the unloading rates on page 128 of the manual. APs have a 600 point/turn.

Hope this helps.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 14
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 1:13:28 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		One of the problems I can see is that the Japanese had none of the special amphibious craft that the US used in later invasions. You may recall that they had troubles taking Wake, managing to do so only on the second try. The US initial invasion of an atoll (Tarawa) nearly came a cropper, as well. I am sure that this is also part of the problem that FatR is having... the best way for the Japanese to perform these tougher invasions is to use far more transports than necessary (with troops only - put your supplies into their own ships) which allows for faster unloading. As FOW mentioned, you want them to unload in one day - which takes a lot of transports. 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to ckammp)
Post #: 15
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 1:40:44 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline 		Midway did have 2 x 7" CD guns on the south side of the atoll, although it is not certain how effective these would have been as they were late & hastily sited additions to the defence.
As regards amphibious assault, given the lethal nature of CD batteries i think you really need a few big-gun ships (ie 6"+ guns) to counter-battery they moment they open up or else they will use your assault-transports for target practice...

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 16
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 3:39:00 PM   
Graymane


Posts: 520
Joined: 3/31/2005
From: Bellevue, NE
Status: offline 		I think you really needed a lot more attacks on the base from the air first. You have to do something to get the CD guns lower. Airfield, Port and Ground attacks as much as you can before then a few days of BB bombardments. Then land with armor/infantry and supplies like other posters stated.

If you don't have that kind of time, you need to land with a lot more troops than 2 RGTs. You need armor. You also need AK/AP or AKA/APA or the Jap equiv, NOT stuff like APDs.

(in reply to xj900uk)
Post #: 17
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 6:27:02 PM   
canuck64


Posts: 233
Joined: 8/25/2004
Status: offline 		I see no one mentioning engineers as part of the initial force, but is this not recommended highly?

(in reply to Graymane)
Post #: 18
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 6:57:44 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		You want combat engineers, not construction engineers, to go on an invasion.  They help reduce fortifications and I believe give the overall AV a boost.  Construction engineers don't do anything but get in the way during a beach assault.

(in reply to canuck64)
Post #: 19
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 7:55:06 PM   
SimonDC

 

Posts: 97
Joined: 11/6/2002
From: Washington, DC
Status: offline 		FatR, I may be way off here, but I believe Midway has a troop limit of 6,000 so using two regiments may be getting penalized for too many troops.

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 20
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 8:54:26 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: FatR


quote:

ORIGINAL: Halsey

Plus, don't put small escorts in the invasion.
Use stout CA's CL's and DD's.

CD's eat up the smaller ships.
Whereas the escorts will suck up and return the fire of CD batteries.

The invasion TF was escorted by light cruisers. However, I should have detached fast BBs for bombardment immediately after seeing that Midway has no credible bomber airforce.



Got to do a bombardment the turn before, in cojunction with ground attack airstrikes.
If you can swing it.
It makes a big difference.

(in reply to FatR)
Post #: 21
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/21/2009 8:59:52 PM   
Halsey

 

Posts: 5069
Joined: 2/7/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: canuck64

I see no one mentioning engineers as part of the initial force, but is this not recommended highly?


You're going to get a shock attack anyway.
Combat Engs are a premium unit.

I usually save them for the bigger island bases, where the forts are a lot larger.

But, if you have them to spare, by all means include them in the mix.
Small armor units are a good choice too.

< Message edited by Halsey -- 12/22/2009 12:18:16 AM >

(in reply to canuck64)
Post #: 22
RE: Attacking atolls. - 12/22/2009 1:32:47 PM   
xj900uk

 

Posts: 1340
Joined: 3/22/2007
Status: offline
quote:

Construction engineers don't do anything but get in the way during a beach assault.

The 'Fighting Seabees' being an obvious exception. There are loads of accounts of their construction engineers beavering away whilst under heavy fire on the beaches trying to secure landing stages, piers, temporary paving to get armour ashore etc

(in reply to Halsey)
Post #: 23
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