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Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a time?

 
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Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a time? - 12/22/2009 4:10:03 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		Hello all,

While I'm off work for the holidays, I've been looking through my wargames and asking myself why there are quite a number, similar to each other, that I no longer have any desire to play. I couldn't put my finger on the reason until I installed a couple I hadn't played in a while.

So, as a result of too much thought on my part, here's my biggest gripe with certain wargames...it's not the graphics or poor AI (I'm not that good a player to worry about this anyway!) or anything else we often hear complained about...nope, it's the way in which some games only allow 1 to 1 attacks and unrealistically limit movement.

Take Advanced Tactics as a good example of why I keep coming back time after time to Vic's amazing game. You can attack an enemy unit with all those of yours within striking distance - at the same time. And that's how it should be. Contrast that with any number of other games where you are forced to attack enemy units one at a time. While I'm at it, you often can't re-select a unit even after it's used only some of its movement allowance. I want my infantry and armoured vehicles to attack together, not one after another. I want to be able to move a unit part of the allowance, move other units in the same way and be able to come back to this unit and continue moving. I've lost countless scenarios over the years through this restriction alone.

I'm no military genius by any means, yet I can't work out why this makes any sense? Whatever happened to the golden rule of using combined arms? Overwhelming numbers? Encirclement even? I know these are games and not simulations. Therefore we can't expect realism and there must be some level of abstraction. I understand that, but not why some games force this strange, illogical way of moving/attacking and others don't.

This isn't a rant or moan, honest. I'm genuinely interesting in knowing why some designers see fit to restrict the game mechanics in this way. Is it the complexities of creating an AI capable of making sense of multiple simulatneous attacks or something else I'm too clueless to work out for myself?

Cheers,
Jim
[Edited for speling mistaks ]

< Message edited by Jim_H -- 12/22/2009 4:11:28 PM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.
Post #: 1
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 4:29:39 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Just as simple as game design and balance I guess...nothing much deeper than that.

If you imagine some of these games where you can attack with multiple units you could probably imagine having to rebalance the whole game (all scenarios included). It's also easier to code.

As an example if you have one unit fighting another unit, then you have one units stats against another...work out the probability or whatever it is they use and roll the virtual dice. However, throw in an Arty unit and it's stats, along with an infantry unit and things get more complicated.

Just my thoughts.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 2
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 5:47:55 PM   
killroyishere

 

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quote:

I know these are games and not simulations. Therefore we can't expect realism and there must be some level of abstraction.


You basically answered your own question. Turn based games use combined arms but in a sequential method not fast action. You almost sound like you want the elements of a real time strategy game where everything moves at once to be in a turn based game. Can't really happen that way unless someone makes a way to wrap around several counters on the map give them an objective and they all move at the same time and fire sequentially. I think maybe HTTR and COTA come closest to this while not being totally turn based or real time. Turn based games for the most part though are built the way they are to comply with how the rules and mechanics of the game are setup. Mostly it's move something, figure out the odds, roll the die and take combat results and on an on for each piece thereafter. Turn based games have been ruled this way for as long as I can remember back into the early 60's. Of course there were times you could surround a hex with 6 units, combine all their combat values and then roll the die for the combat results. Some computer games still use that method though many today use the move, attack end of that units turn for this round. You'll just have to search for those that come closest to what type of mechanic of the game you want. For me I can play any and all of them except real time as real time in most computer games doesn't come close to real time in normal time.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
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RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 6:05:48 PM   
Hanal

 

Posts: 2312
Joined: 11/1/2003
Status: offline 		Look into World War II Time of Wrath where multiple hex attacks are encouraged...in fact there is is a penalty for 1-1 attacks...

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 4
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 7:49:59 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline 		Thanks for the replies.

JD - I suspected it may be as simple as design, easier to program, less calculations to make etc. and if that is the case, I'm a bit disappointed. I guess if the wargame devs of this world had the resources of EA or some other large outfit, they'd be able to accomodate more "realistic" (for want of a better word) mechanics by spending more time on them. As things stand, it feels wrong somehow. I think it's partly just my tastes in games developing and changing over time. It never used to really bother me, but lately, it's becoming a frustration and hinderance. Having played Winter Storm, General Commander (demo only), Advanced Tactics, Highway to the Reich, Flashpoint Germany (iirc), I'm spoiled by their, to my mind, much better mechanics than the move 1 unit, attack with 1 unit that's putting me off some other games. I know some are effectively real time, but Advanced Tactics managed the combined arms approach very elegantly for a turn based game, at least in comparison to many others anyway. Im my humble opinion

killroyishere - It's interesting that you mention how things have always been done. I'm wondering if perhaps that's the problem? Is it because turn based games have always adopted this approach that devs are just doing it "because it's always been done that way"? The games I mention in the paragraph above do deviate for various reasons from the others I'm talking about and they are far superior for it, but obviously only in my humble opinion hehe! They feel less artificial, in that the player isn't constrained by mechanics to make unit moves he/she wouldn't otherwise have made. Does that make sense? I'm not saying I'm right for everyone, just that I'm right for my gaming enjoyment 

J P Falcon - I haven't had the pleasure of seeing the game yet, but I applaud that way of using multiple hexes! That's exactly my whole point.


< Message edited by Jim_H -- 12/22/2009 7:50:53 PM >

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Hanal)
Post #: 5
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 8:00:41 PM   
SireChaos

 

Posts: 710
Joined: 8/14/2006
From: Frankfurt, Germany
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

quote:

I know these are games and not simulations. Therefore we can't expect realism and there must be some level of abstraction.


You basically answered your own question. Turn based games use combined arms but in a sequential method not fast action. You almost sound like you want the elements of a real time strategy game where everything moves at once to be in a turn based game. Can't really happen that way unless someone makes a way to wrap around several counters on the map give them an objective and they all move at the same time and fire sequentially. I think maybe HTTR and COTA come closest to this while not being totally turn based or real time. Turn based games for the most part though are built the way they are to comply with how the rules and mechanics of the game are setup. Mostly it's move something, figure out the odds, roll the die and take combat results and on an on for each piece thereafter. Turn based games have been ruled this way for as long as I can remember back into the early 60's. Of course there were times you could surround a hex with 6 units, combine all their combat values and then roll the die for the combat results. Some computer games still use that method though many today use the move, attack end of that units turn for this round. You'll just have to search for those that come closest to what type of mechanic of the game you want. For me I can play any and all of them except real time as real time in most computer games doesn't come close to real time in normal time.


I think the type of mechanic he is looking can be found, for example, in The Operational Art of War. You can move your units, plan attacks (including multiple-on-one) and then execute them, and if there is any turn left, move again and attack again afterwards.

(in reply to killroyishere)
Post #: 6
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 8:15:12 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: SireChaos
I think the type of mechanic he is looking can be found, for example, in The Operational Art of War. You can move your units, plan attacks (including multiple-on-one) and then execute them, and if there is any turn left, move again and attack again afterwards.

Yes, that's exactly it. I'd completely forgotten about TOAoW.

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to SireChaos)
Post #: 7
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 9:37:03 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H
I want to be able to move a unit part of the allowance, move other units in the same way and be able to come back to this unit and continue moving.


SSG’s wargames do this.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H
Whatever happened to the golden rule of using combined arms?


In SSG’s wargames, armaour have more than just an attack value. They provide other benefit. Hence a combined arms attack is the best type


quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H
Overwhelming numbers? Encirclement even?


If you can achieve that in SSG’s games you’re onto a certain victory



quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H
[Edited for speling mistaks ]


“Spelling” was one of the words that appeared in the very first dictionary


(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 8
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 10:20:16 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
SSG’s wargames do this.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
In SSG’s wargames, armaour have more than just an attack value. They provide other benefit. Hence a combined arms attack is the best type

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
If you can achieve that in SSG’s games you’re onto a certain victory

Thanks Joe 98. Your response got me up into the loft to find my copy of SSG's Korsun Pocket (yay, complete with the manual ). The receipt is also still in the case from January 2004! Seems like a long time ago now. Anyway, I'm going to fire it up and have a play as it's been years since I had it installed. It'll be like playing it for the first time all over again. Thanks for the reminder

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe 98
“Spelling” was one of the words that appeared in the very first dictionary

That's my lesson for today then. I didn't know that

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to Fred98)
Post #: 9
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 10:25:29 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		SSGs are great engines...I have to agree. I have Battles in Normandy (BiN) which I am currently going through the tutorials for and Also Kharkov:Disaster on the Donets (K:DotD). I did have Korsun Pocket many years ago, but didn't give it much of a chance tbh.

I'm enjoying BiN and looking forward to picking up the Battles in Italy (BiI) game in January.

(in reply to leastonh1)
Post #: 10
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 10:37:25 PM   
leastonh1


Posts: 879
Joined: 2/12/2005
From: West Yorkshire, England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JudgeDredd

SSGs are great engines...I have to agree. I have Battles in Normandy (BiN) which I am currently going through the tutorials for and Also Kharkov:Disaster on the Donets (K:DotD). I did have Korsun Pocket many years ago, but didn't give it much of a chance tbh.

I'm enjoying BiN and looking forward to picking up the Battles in Italy (BiI) game in January.

I played with Korsun Pocket when I bought it and although I appreciated the great design, it was just too much for me and like you, I didn't give it much of a chance. It was shelved after that. I'm really glad Joe 98 mentioned SSG now as I'd completely forgotten about my copy of this game. Having just looked through the printed docs, I can't wait to play. The whole manual is written as a series of tutorials on every aspect of gameplay. Fantastic.

I have a feeling I'm going to be buying the rest in the series at some point. This is going to cost me!

_____________________________

2nd Lt. George Rice: Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Richard Winters: We're paratroopers, Lieutenant, we're supposed to be surrounded.

(in reply to JudgeDredd)
Post #: 11
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 10:43:22 PM   
Fred98


Posts: 4430
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Wollondilly, Sydney
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim_H

I played with Korsun Pocket when I bought it and......It was shelved after that.



Comparing Korsun Pocket with SSG's latest game, is a bit like comparing a 1969 sedan with a 2009 sedan.

The same yet different with so many mod cons such that there is no longer much comparison.

-




(in reply to leastonh1)
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RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 10:51:27 PM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
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quote:

Is it because turn based games have always adopted this approach that devs are just doing it "because it's always been done that way"?


I guess you could say that. I've always likened turn based wargames to chess as chess was my first foray into wargaming. After chess came Avalon Hills version of wargames, then SPI etc etc. Once computer wargaming came along I never looked back. In the early days of wargaming on the pc they made games like Knights of the Desert and Tigers in the Snow and Battle for Normandy which took on the appearance of these board wargames I was used to playing. They used the old counters and hexes and were quite good. They also used the same basic mechanics of 1 vs 1 each vs each until something routed.
I'm not sure if it was when Kampfgruppe or Germany 1985 came out that combined arms attacks came into being. I do remember you could stack every unit you had into one hex in Kampfgruppe (highly overpowered ability) and attack with it around the map. Then in Germany 1985 if you had artillery units any maybe other units they would support any attacks or defenses during those battles. From there on it kind of went back n forth on how the game mechanics played but it was usually either or with each new wargame made after that.
The thing I can't get used to is real time or even pausible continous time as ai units get ahead of what I want them to do and then it doesn't become or continue to be me in command control but the ai. That's what most real time strategy games have become. I'd just as soon watch a movie or read a book as play some real time game most of the time as I just don't feel in control of the battles. I'm just an observer who gets to make occassional directions the way the battle should go.

This is why I like Matrixgames games for the most part and HPS games as most of them provide the turn based boardgame like feel with several gameplay mechanics. It was a sad day when rts came into the light of strategy and wargaming because it seems to have taken over the genre and more and more gamers are turning to it instead of good old turn based gaming. Some are ok like Mad Minutes 2nd Manassas or Bull Run but for the most part they are boring and not fun and not really wargames at all imho.

(in reply to leastonh1)
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RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/22/2009 11:42:19 PM   
SeaMonkey

 

Posts: 804
Joined: 2/15/2004
Status: offline 		Have you thought that the sequence of one attack after another in a way simulates a tactical coordination of different arms?

Imagine that the defender with variable terrain, defensive entrenchments, TO&E, etc would require a certain sequential use of specific weapons to undermine their position and this of course is constantly changing.

And besides, multiple seguential unit attacks vs single simultaneous attack in essence do the same thing, degrade the defensive position.  They both take thought, combined arms, but the single(conglomerate) attack doesn't provide any simulation of attack timing/coordination whereas a sequence of single attacks do.

A matter of preference, I can imagine that they produce the same result with a different mechanism. 

(in reply to killroyishere)
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RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/26/2009 11:05:42 PM   
E

 

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Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

I do remember you could stack every unit you had into one hex in Kampfgruppe (highly overpowered ability) and attack with it around the map.


I crank up Kampfgruppe every now and then... it's hard to stop myself from setting up a meeting engagement, rushing everything I have to the exact same overwatch position then laugh maniacally with a German accent, as the Russians show up piecemeal for wholesale slaughter. Grigsby did overlook stopping overstacking back then. But the game was and still is a great game if you didn't/don't figure out the overstacking, or can restrain from doing so now. *grin*

(in reply to killroyishere)
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RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/26/2009 11:50:21 PM   
rickier65

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: killroyishere

I've always likened turn based wargames to chess as chess was my first foray into wargaming. After chess came Avalon Hills version of wargames, then SPI etc etc. Once computer wargaming came along I never looked back. In the early days of wargaming on the pc they made games like Knights of the Desert and Tigers in the Snow ...


Knights of the Desert was my very first computer war game. And I also recall AH - I used to read the General" and I was actually one of those that bought the "Lifetime" subscription to S&T just before they stopped publishing!

RIck


(in reply to killroyishere)
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RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/27/2009 12:46:37 AM   
sabre1


Posts: 1928
Joined: 8/15/2001
From: CA
Status: offline 		I lost my copies of Panthers in the Shadows, and Tigers on the Prowl, and I don't know why HPS doesn't relase those so we can play them using DOS box.

I still have the reference manual that they use to sell with those great games. I suppose they feel that squad battles fills that niche?

Knights in the Desert, Kampfgruppe were great games in their day, but SSG (Kharkov, Disaster on the Donetz) fills the turn based slot for me currently. A great system of being playable without overwhelming you, and fairly easy to learn, but difficult to master. That elusive combination that for me Grigsby games have never hit the mark (don't flame me, I said "for me"). I do have hopes for the new Russian front game.

(in reply to rickier65)
Post #: 17
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/27/2009 1:13:35 AM   
E

 

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Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: sabre1

That elusive combination that for me Grigsby games have never hit the mark (don't flame me, I said "for me").


Why flame? You're entitled to your opinion, heretic. (*grin*) I'm curious, did the early self-published SSG games do anything for you? (self-published as opposed to Keating's SSI work from 1980 onwards... who can forget Keating's "Computer Conflict?!?!" (...actually, I can't. But that's because I still have them all. *grin*) There seemed to be those who loved Grigsby games and those who hated them and loved SSG games, back in the day.

(in reply to sabre1)
Post #: 18
RE: Why do some turn based games force attacks 1 at a t... - 12/27/2009 2:14:28 AM   
killroyishere

 

Posts: 639
Joined: 4/23/2008
Status: offline 		remember these wonderful turn based games?
http://www.gamebase64.com/oldsite/gameofweek/44/gotw_panzerstrike.htm
http://hol.abime.net/1549

Plus the 150 best games of all time:
http://www.cdaccess.com/html/pc/150best.htm

(in reply to E)
Post #: 19
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