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RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version)

 
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RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/23/2009 3:29:07 AM   
critter


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

It's a lack of resources versus the return. To include the area to the north, we would have had to add a huge number of hexes to the map. The map already has 183 by 140 hexes (25,620 hexes), and we really didn't want to add on another 45 rows to the map (another 8,235 hexes) just to get Murmansk into the game. Funny that no one mentions Iran, the source of 70% of the lend lease (not sure of that, but I think that Murmansk was small compared to Iran and the Pacific routes). Also, with large amounts going through the Pacific route, Murmansk was not the the huge factor that some of you are making it out to be. Would it be better if we included Murmansk? Yes, but we think not by much, and all games have trade-offs. We felt the cost for adding Murmansk (art, code, memory, testing, balance) was too much relative to the benefits gained.


I personally don't think it's worth it. But have you considered an off map box ala World in Flames. Axis units could roll their even money attacks against the Russians put there to stop them. If the Germans add more the Russians will just add enough to make it even money again.
I'd rather take Leningrad and winter in Moscow..

(in reply to Joel Billings)
Post #: 31
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/23/2009 11:19:45 AM   
ComradeP

 

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quote:

It's a lack of resources versus the return. To include the area to the north, we would have had to add a huge number of hexes to the map. The map already has 183 by 140 hexes (25,620 hexes), and we really didn't want to add on another 45 rows to the map (another 8,235 hexes) just to get Murmansk into the game. Funny that no one mentions Iran, the source of 70% of the lend lease (not sure of that, but I think that Murmansk was small compared to Iran and the Pacific routes). Also, with large amounts going through the Pacific route, Murmansk was not the the huge factor that some of you are making it out to be. Would it be better if we included Murmansk? Yes, but we think not by much, and all games have trade-offs. We felt the cost for adding Murmansk (art, code, memory, testing, balance) was too much relative to the benefits gained.


Why would we mention Iran? There was no realistic plan to attack Iran, whilst there was a war on around Murmansk. You're saying that an active combat zone is not on the map, using as an excuse that a country that wasn't even entered by the Axis isn't on the map either and that most of the Lend-Lease was shipped through there. That's a pretty poor excuse. You can't really blame us for asking for an important part of the fighting on the northern front that just isn't on the map and we can do nothing about to resolve in our favour.

The Caucasus and, I believe, all major ports around the Caspian Sea are on the map, so we can cut those off, forcing the Soviets to move supply overland through what is now Turkmenistan and Kazachstan. In short: the Axis player could lower the Lend-Lease coming from Iran with what's on the map.

If those over 8000 hexes would be added, the map of the relevant portions of the Soviet Union would be complete. Currently, it isn't as an important portion of the northern front is missing.

Moreover, the capture of Murmansk and Leningrad would've allowed several German elite divisions to move to other duties and the frontline to wheel south. Parts of the Finnish army could demobilize, lowering the strain on the Finnish economy whilst possibly strengthening the remaining Finnish forces and fewer Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine assets would be needed in Norway. The capture of Murmansk and Leningrad would've offered the Axis a lot more initial benefits as, say, the capture of Stalingrad or even the success of the 1942 summer offensive.

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Post #: 32
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/23/2009 1:52:07 PM   
Rasputitsa


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It is clear that this title is at an advanced stage of development, it may be glass half-full, or glass half-empty, but the promise is that we are going to get something enormous and anyway there cannot be any major changes at this late stage. The testing team are all saying that this is going to be a great game and they are in the best position to know.

Happy Christmas to all of you and roll on publication date.

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 33
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/23/2009 2:37:58 PM   
MengCiao

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

quote:

It's a lack of resources versus the return. To include the area to the north, we would have had to add a huge number of hexes to the map. The map already has 183 by 140 hexes (25,620 hexes), and we really didn't want to add on another 45 rows to the map (another 8,235 hexes) just to get Murmansk into the game. Funny that no one mentions Iran, the source of 70% of the lend lease (not sure of that, but I think that Murmansk was small compared to Iran and the Pacific routes). Also, with large amounts going through the Pacific route, Murmansk was not the the huge factor that some of you are making it out to be. Would it be better if we included Murmansk? Yes, but we think not by much, and all games have trade-offs. We felt the cost for adding Murmansk (art, code, memory, testing, balance) was too much relative to the benefits gained.


Why would we mention Iran? There was no realistic plan to attack Iran, whilst there was a war on around Murmansk. You're saying that an active combat zone is not on the map, using as an excuse that a country that wasn't even entered by the Axis isn't on the map either and that most of the Lend-Lease was shipped through there. That's a pretty poor excuse. You can't really blame us for asking for an important part of the fighting on the northern front that just isn't on the map and we can do nothing about to resolve in our favour.

The Caucasus and, I believe, all major ports around the Caspian Sea are on the map, so we can cut those off, forcing the Soviets to move supply overland through what is now Turkmenistan and Kazachstan. In short: the Axis player could lower the Lend-Lease coming from Iran with what's on the map.

If those over 8000 hexes would be added, the map of the relevant portions of the Soviet Union would be complete. Currently, it isn't as an important portion of the northern front is missing.

Moreover, the capture of Murmansk and Leningrad would've allowed several German elite divisions to move to other duties and the frontline to wheel south. Parts of the Finnish army could demobilize, lowering the strain on the Finnish economy whilst possibly strengthening the remaining Finnish forces and fewer Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine assets would be needed in Norway. The capture of Murmansk and Leningrad would've offered the Axis a lot more initial benefits as, say, the capture of Stalingrad or even the success of the 1942 summer offensive.


As a player who will be playing as a Soviet player, I think a number of off-map boxes should be added where the Germans can send elite divisions. Iran sounds good as an off-map box full of elite German divisions, as does, Crete, Turkey, Greece, Iceland, Greenland and Norway.


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Post #: 34
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/26/2009 7:57:26 AM   
vinnie71

 

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Problem is that it is possible for a German player to move troops from these areas to the USSR and vice versa. Ex the German army in Norway was something like 12 divisions strong in '45. An elite mountain army was fighting in the area as well. Such forces could be moved to the Eastern Front because there is no fear of a Western allied intervention. Iceland and Greenland were no go areas for the Germans since they didn't have major amphibous capability, while Turkey was too precious for the Germans to attack (lots of natural resources flowing from there - chrome and such stuff).

Though like everyone else I would like to have a map which is extensive as possible, I understand the developers problems. A battle for Archangel and Murmansk would involve only smallish forces and as such there could have been no frontline in real life, for larger formations could not be supported. The only section of the map which could be opened up with indirect connection to the eastern front, and is already present is Yugoslavia.

(in reply to MengCiao)
Post #: 35
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/26/2009 1:50:25 PM   
paullus99


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Churchill pushed for an invasion of Norway (though he was eventually talked out of it). Hitler was fearfull of the same, which is why so many troops were committed to the defense of the country (to maintain supplies of raw materials and goods from Sweden). I doubt those troops could have been committed to the Eastern Front, even if Hitler had wanted to.

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Post #: 36
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/26/2009 2:59:45 PM   
ComradeP

 

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I don't think anyone's talking about including the German garrison in Norway, we're talking about including the ~50.000 troops that were fighting the Soviets in northern Finland and Norway. I don't see how those forces could not be committed to other theatres, after the capture of Murmansk. More elite mountain troops in the Crimea or the Caucasus would not have hurt the Axis war effort.

Norway is a large country, the garrison wasn't entirely out of proportion, with around 1 German for every square kilometre. That includes the garrison of in many cases static forces, the Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine assets in the area (which were technically on combat missions against the Arctic Convoys and Allied naval presence in the area), and the forces in northern Norway fighting the Soviets.

Fact remains that a combat zone of the Eastern Front isn't included on the map. I can live with that, we'll have to after all, but there's no reason to marginalize what we're missing.

(in reply to paullus99)
Post #: 37
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/26/2009 11:06:49 PM   
vinnie71

 

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Actually Germany had a surplus of mountain troops, with around 10 divisions of mountain troops + specialised high alpine battalions being raised. This excluding SS formations which were graced with that title as well. My problem is that players would be free to move forces found in Norway into Russia if they exist on the map unless they are tied down somehow, which would be counterproductive in the end...

(in reply to ComradeP)
Post #: 38
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/27/2009 12:50:54 AM   
ComradeP

 

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The value of the divisions would be their elite status and their training for mountain warfare. With more mountain divisions available, regular divisions could be withdrawn from Yugoslavia, or the mountain divisions could be used in the Crimea or the Caucasus, possibly as a replacement for Jaeger units. There would always be a job they could do, they wouldn't be redundant. Heck, imagine filling Yugoslavia with mountain divisions to give Tito's crew a real fight.

The divisions also wouldn't be able to move around as you fear, considering that there would be no land link with the rest of the front until Leningrad is captured. It would take a lot of time to transition the divisions from northern Norway to other fronts by sea and later by rail. The value comes from more flexibility for the player, and historic detail.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/27/2009 12:51:58 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/27/2009 7:30:46 AM   
vinnie71

 

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Yeah unfortunately even Yugoslavia is out of the picture as it is today...

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Post #: 40
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/27/2009 11:22:44 AM   
ComradeP

 

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If the game is historical, some divisions that start in the east will still be withdrawn to fight in Yugoslavia, it would be nice to be able to choose what to send there. There's already an occupation system in the major cities, so perhaps a nation-wide system could be abstracted for Yugoslavia, which decreases or increases based on what you send or don't send.

If I can choose between sending some Jaeger units or a mountain division, instead of regular infantry or anything armoured, I would never send the latter to Yugoslavia.

As to the mountain troops: aside from Yugoslavia, the stalemates in the Crimea in 1941 and the stalemate in the Caucasus in 1942 could realistically be tilted in the favour of the Axis by moving more mountain divisions there.

< Message edited by ComradeP -- 12/27/2009 11:23:24 AM >

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Post #: 41
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/27/2009 12:58:00 PM   
Karri

 

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Worth mentioning though that the Axis never acxcomplished a thing in Lapland. Not to mention that as opposed to the rest of the map where you could assume that there are some sort of roads in every hex, there are pretty much none in Lapland. The war there was much different from the rest of Eastern Front, how would you simulate that?

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Post #: 42
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/27/2009 3:49:36 PM   
vinnie71

 

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My take on operations on Lappland is that they were defensive, generally speaking.

Re mountain troops: the bulk were divided in 2 groups - those sent to Norway and those sent to Italy and the Balkans. Though a group was sent south in the Caucasus, they suffered terribly because once they were caught in the open, they had little chance to defend themselves because they had a smaller complement of artillery and anti-tank units. Which is why the bulk of the mountain units were in the end concentrated in Italy and Balkans and Norway.

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Post #: 43
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/28/2009 3:35:13 AM   
freeboy

 

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will the red armies historic challenges with supplying troops during offenses be modeled? I hope both sides, and even different fronts have supply challenges other than the topography?

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Post #: 44
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/28/2009 2:13:37 PM   
PyleDriver


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Unlike WIR, every truck is counted also. So if you don't have enough most likely your not going to far to fast...Historic supply has been a focal point in this game, and has really eaten up alot of our testing time...I'm testing our 42 game now, and if I only had 100,000 more trucks...lol...Opp's I don't...

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Post #: 45
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 12/28/2009 3:44:23 PM   
vinnie71

 

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Hehe make do with panje wagons...

Btw in what modes is supply going to be moved? Up till now we know that supply moves by rail and by truck. What about horse drawn supplies, do they feature in the game? And what about barges etc which were used by both sides (Soviet side especially)?

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 46
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 1/1/2010 2:21:56 AM   
pompack


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Unlike WIR, every truck is counted also. So if you don't have enough most likely your not going to far to fast...Historic supply has been a focal point in this game, and has really eaten up alot of our testing time...I'm testing our 42 game now, and if I only had 100,000 more trucks...lol...Opp's I don't...


Hopefully you have studied Supplying War:Logistics from Wallenstein to Patton by van Creveld

(in reply to PyleDriver)
Post #: 47
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 1/24/2010 1:21:32 AM   
Silvanski


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Great map. Can someone post as zoomed in shot from the Caucasus? Is there a rail line from Astrakhan to Baku, and none from Novorosiysk to Tuapse?




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 1/24/2010 1:25:00 AM >


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Post #: 48
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 1/24/2010 2:07:02 AM   
elmo3

 

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You can get from Astrakhan to Baku by rail fairly directly.  You can not get from Novorossiysk to Tuapse along the coast by rail but there is an indirect route that goes quite a ways east and then back southwest to Tuapse.

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Post #: 49
RE: Game Map 1941 (ALPHA Version) - 1/24/2010 6:08:45 AM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

You can get from Astrakhan to Baku by rail fairly directly.  You can not get from Novorossiysk to Tuapse along the coast by rail but there is an indirect route that goes quite a ways east and then back southwest to Tuapse.

Nice I just wanted to be sure that a common mistake in maps of that area hasn't slipped in

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