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How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's

 
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How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 4:46:15 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Status: offline 		Historically, many b-29's were based at Tinian. As it has a size 4 airfield it seems an ofdd choice. The only advantage is the proximity to the home Islands. As 100+ bomber raids did depart from Tinian how do I get it in shape to do the same in the game?
thanks

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 5:32:09 PM   
bsq


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Status: offline 		My point exactly - it should be bigger (in stock - before any one bangs on about the editor). 100 B-29's over-stacks, more than 12 Sqns and it is maxed out on groups it so how do you get to use it properly without using the editor?

There are pictures all over the place showing more than 140 B-29s at Tinian on just one field (there were two with 6 runways between them - Tinian served just one purpose during late 44/early 45 - as a base for several hundred B-29's)

< Message edited by bsq -- 1/1/2010 5:35:03 PM >

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 5:52:44 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Status: offline 		Here is a picture of North Field. 4 massive runways. West field is in the backround. If this is a level 4 airfield would someone please post a picture of a level 9?





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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 5:58:26 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

My point exactly - it should be bigger (in stock - before any one bangs on about the editor). 100 B-29's over-stacks, more than 12 Sqns and it is maxed out on groups it so how do you get to use it properly without using the editor?

There are pictures all over the place showing more than 140 B-29s at Tinian on just one field (there were two with 6 runways between them - Tinian served just one purpose during late 44/early 45 - as a base for several hundred B-29's)




that´s pretty easy to answer: you can´t use it properly without using the editor... sure you can move in far more bombers and you also launch raids bigger than a couple of dozen bombers but as has been pointed out more than once, due to the "overstacking" you will suffer far more op losses...

but hey, that´s no problem as you get historical numbers of B-29s... lol

this can be discussed in the already started thread about the same issue on the forum anyway...

< Message edited by castor troy -- 1/1/2010 5:59:18 PM >

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 6:00:18 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

Here is a picture of North Field. 4 massive runways. West field is in the backround. If this is a level 4 airfield would someone please post a picture of a level 9?







this isn´t the level 4 airfield (that would be a picture before 44...)

this is the level 7 airfield (the 4 maxxed out) but I get your point...

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 6:03:49 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Status: offline 		From wikipedia:
"Once under American control, a massive construction project was begun on the north end of Tinian, and nearly the entire northern end of the island was occupied by the runways, nearly 11 miles of taxiways and the airfield area, along with the various support facilities and containment areas. The Ushi Point Airfield had been expanded with three 8000' runways involving the movement of nearly 1,000,000 cubic yards of earth and coral while 900,000 truck miles were absorbed. A fourth runway was constructed in May 1945. Hardstands built for 265 B-29 bombers. The four parallel 8,000 foot runways are oriented nearly east-west. North Field was, at the time, the largest airfield in the world.

So if North Field was the largest airfield in the world I nominate it for promotion to a level 9 airfield. Guess I will figure out how to work the editor

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 6:26:35 PM   
Astarix

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

From wikipedia:
"Once under American control, a massive construction project was begun on the north end of Tinian, and nearly the entire northern end of the island was occupied by the runways, nearly 11 miles of taxiways and the airfield area, along with the various support facilities and containment areas. The Ushi Point Airfield had been expanded with three 8000' runways involving the movement of nearly 1,000,000 cubic yards of earth and coral while 900,000 truck miles were absorbed. A fourth runway was constructed in May 1945. Hardstands built for 265 B-29 bombers. The four parallel 8,000 foot runways are oriented nearly east-west. North Field was, at the time, the largest airfield in the world.

So if North Field was the largest airfield in the world I nominate it for promotion to a level 9 airfield. Guess I will figure out how to work the editor


You don't need to work the editor, you need an very large air HQ or command HQ that has the same HQ as Tinian. Each point in the command radius = 1 additional point in the airfield size. So if you have Tinian built up to level 7 and put an HQ with a 9 command radius, this will give you a size 16 AF (16 Squadrons w/o over-stacking). Given the size of the B-29 squadrons you should be able to easily base the 250 AC as historical. Don't forget to put at least 250 AV support on the Island.

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 6:28:53 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

this is the level 7 airfield (the 4 maxed out) but I get your point...


It is a level 9. Biggest in the world and knowing the U.S. logistics system probably the best supplied. I was probably a level 4 under Japanese management. That was part of the US charm. They saw engineering potential where the Japanese did not (if I recall the Japanese had Buna, but the U.S. saw the potential and created Dubarora). Moreover, seeing the potential, they wre able to execute on a massive scale. The Island looks like it going to sink under all the equipment they had there. The Japanese could have made quite a mess if they had any attack potential at all.





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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 6:57:29 PM   
bsq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Astarix


quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

From wikipedia:
"Once under American control, a massive construction project was begun on the north end of Tinian, and nearly the entire northern end of the island was occupied by the runways, nearly 11 miles of taxiways and the airfield area, along with the various support facilities and containment areas. The Ushi Point Airfield had been expanded with three 8000' runways involving the movement of nearly 1,000,000 cubic yards of earth and coral while 900,000 truck miles were absorbed. A fourth runway was constructed in May 1945. Hardstands built for 265 B-29 bombers. The four parallel 8,000 foot runways are oriented nearly east-west. North Field was, at the time, the largest airfield in the world.

So if North Field was the largest airfield in the world I nominate it for promotion to a level 9 airfield. Guess I will figure out how to work the editor


You don't need to work the editor, you need an very large air HQ or command HQ that has the same HQ as Tinian. Each point in the command radius = 1 additional point in the airfield size. So if you have Tinian built up to level 7 and put an HQ with a 9 command radius, this will give you a size 16 AF (16 Squadrons w/o over-stacking). Given the size of the B-29 squadrons you should be able to easily base the 250 AC as historical. Don't forget to put at least 250 AV support on the Island.



No you can't - it may seem that you can, but you can't. You get maxed out at 12 groups and around 350 engine points (less than 100 planes). I have tried this repeatedly and it does not work as you describe. The other thing is that air support seems to max out at 240.

BTW the 250 historical aircraft were just at North Field - West Field also had a Bomb Wing ( =4 BG = 12 BS = 240 B-29's), so you are looking to house almost 500 minimum and you can only do that on a REAL size 9 airfield (ie a location with an SPS of 6 or more).

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 6:59:39 PM   
bsq


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

this is the level 7 airfield (the 4 maxed out) but I get your point...


It is a level 9. Biggest in the world and knowing the U.S. logistics system probably the best supplied. I was probably a level 4 under Japanese management. That was part of the US charm. They saw engineering potential where the Japanese did not (if I recall the Japanese had Buna, but the U.S. saw the potential and created Dubarora). Moreover, seeing the potential, they wre able to execute on a massive scale. The Island looks like it going to sink under all the equipment they had there. The Japanese could have made quite a mess if they had any attack potential at all.






Ignore...

< Message edited by bsq -- 1/1/2010 7:02:56 PM >

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 7:09:33 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

this is the level 7 airfield (the 4 maxed out) but I get your point...


It is a level 9. Biggest in the world and knowing the U.S. logistics system probably the best supplied. I was probably a level 4 under Japanese management. That was part of the US charm. They saw engineering potential where the Japanese did not (if I recall the Japanese had Buna, but the U.S. saw the potential and created Dubarora). Moreover, seeing the potential, they wre able to execute on a massive scale. The Island looks like it going to sink under all the equipment they had there. The Japanese could have made quite a mess if they had any attack potential at all.







you seem to may have misuderstood me. You´ve posted a picture and referred to it as a LEVEL 4 in the game (which would be before the US built it up) and I´ve said the picture you´ve posted would be the level 7 (the maxxed out af). You can´t post a pic from late 44 or 45 and compare it to a size (in game) of 42.

We do agree though that it should be possible to build a level 9 there.

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 7:26:58 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

you seem to may have misuderstood me. You´ve posted a picture and referred to it as a LEVEL 4 in the game (which would be before the US built it up) and I´ve said the picture you´ve posted would be the level 7 (the maxxed out af). You can´t post a pic from late 44 or 45 and compare it to a size (in game) of 42.
agreed. Actually I am in May 44 and I am about to take it (I hope) I have my b-29's in Burma and there a lot more fields to base these at but I can't seem to get them within range of any heavy Industry except Saigon and Bangkok. I believe the photo is from May 45 or later as that was when the 4th runway was added. I still think it was praobly a level 9 before that as it had 5 8,000 foot runways on the Island.

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 8:10:11 PM   
mutterfudder

 

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Status: offline 		What yall need is a save game editor.
With this editor, one could make the ajustments without having to start the whole game from the beginning.


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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 8:14:48 PM   
stuman


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Status: offline 		As I play the Japanese and tend to only build it up to a size 4, are you guys saying that no matter the number of eng. units and amount of supplies you pour into Tinian you can only build it up to a size 7 ?

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 8:37:29 PM   
Barb


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Status: offline 		Well. For max use: build up to 7 and add XX Air Force HQ.

1) The game was designed with overstacking in mind! Overstacking is used to slow things down in game. IRL squadrons were sending 3-6 planes on a mission, not 12 or 16. Especially bomber squadrons. For example normal B-25 or A-20 squadron in 1944 was 6 plane formation for major attack on airfield and 2 plane sections for barge hunt. More planes were sent only for special missions (like Bismarck sea battle or Rabaul strike) requiring lot of time to prepare.

2) While North field can be largest airfield in the world at that time, I doubt it has same capacity as all Oahu airfields combined when build up to max


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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 9:22:54 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

2) While North field can be largest airfield in the world at that time, I doubt it has same capacity as all Oahu airfields combined when build up to max

I don't know if there is a way to provide it but I submit it had greater capacity than Oahu. It served no other purpose but to launch heavy bombers. It was concentrated, it had a unending, uninterrupted amount of supply, it had dedicated , enclosed work spaces, it could service the largest bomber in the world, it had individual pads and work areas for 250 very heavy bombers,it was perfectly flat to allow unimpeded approach and departure. It can, and did, launch heavy raids with hundreds of aircraft day after day, month after month. Hell, it had nuclear wapons facilities. Sorry level 7 is not good enough. This is a 10. Wellington, Rabual, Port Morseby about a dozen Russian bases are 9's there are plenty of level 9 bases and this is a 4? It does not make sense. This was the largest airfield in the world. Not just in theory, but in practice. History shows what this airfield was capable of and the game does not accurately reflect this.




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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 10:59:58 PM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Barb

2) While North field can be largest airfield in the world at that time, I doubt it has same capacity as all Oahu airfields combined when build up to max



It's not just the runways. It's the capacity of the base to handle all necessary activities.

Oahu:
NAS Ford Island - 1 Runway
NAS Keneohe Bay - 3 Runways
Ewa Marine Air Station - 3 Runways
Hickham Field - 1 Runway
Bellows Field - 5 Runways
Wheeler Field - 2 Runways
Kahuku Army Airfield - 2 Runways
Haleiwa Fighter Strip - 1 runway
Mokuleia Army Airfield - 1 Runway
Kipapa Army Airfield - 2 Runways
Kualoa Army Airfield - 1 Runway

While there was an issue of air congestion with the three fields around Pearl Harbor, all of these airfields had their own traffic patterns and air traffic control. Space to park planes, fuel storage, ammunition storage, hangars, barracks, mess halls, vehicle parking, road access, etc. was probably an order of magnitude greater than that on Tinian.

Note: numerous other examples. San Diego was actually 10 different airfields.

Another consideration is that the maximum operational tempo for running raids out of Tinian over Japan was 1 sortie every three days for a squadron. It took one day mission prep and training, One day for the mission (15 - 17 hour round trip), and one day rest. At peak, there were 6 groups between the two field on Tinian with 18 squadrons. Using a 3-day cycle, this works out to 6 Squadrons flying, 6 training, and 6 on stand down. By the rules (not sure if the code effectively does it), that is 6 + 1 Air Groups, below the Administrative limit. But it does not beat the engine limit, even with 2/3 of the aircraft counting as 1/3. Can't do it without overstacking.

Regardless, I agree that the rules seem to preclude the possibility of launching the big raids that historically occured.



< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/1/2010 11:00:28 PM >

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 11:08:38 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

As I play the Japanese and tend to only build it up to a size 4, are you guys saying that no matter the number of eng. units and amount of supplies you pour into Tinian you can only build it up to a size 7 ?



exactly, you can never build something higher than 3 levels over the normal size. And normal size for Tinian is set to 4.

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 11:16:46 PM   
jomni


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Status: offline 		Yup building 3 levels beyond max is possible but it takes more time than usual.
So the question is, can you hold the island once the US starts their invasions?


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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 11:27:51 PM   
stuman


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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: stuman

As I play the Japanese and tend to only build it up to a size 4, are you guys saying that no matter the number of eng. units and amount of supplies you pour into Tinian you can only build it up to a size 7 ?



exactly, you can never build something higher than 3 levels over the normal size. And normal size for Tinian is set to 4.


Ah yes, I had forgotten that. As Japan I so rarely have time. or resouces, to build much over 6/7 tbh

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 11:29:04 PM   
String


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quote:

ORIGINAL: jomni

Yup building 3 levels beyond max is possible but it takes more time than usual.
So the question is, can you hold the island once the US starts their invasions?





Yes, sure, they have unlimited troop limits. But if you pour everything into those islands, then be prepared to lose everywhere else and have them turned into nice big POW camps.

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/1/2010 11:35:31 PM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Regardless, I agree that the rules seem to preclude the possibility of launching the big raids that historically occurred.

well that is the thing. this is not a theoretical discussion of what might have been. the big raids were launched from Tinian. Therefore the ability must have existed. So to discuss if the correct base size is silly. It actually really happened, many many times. Therefore the base size, in actual practice, is higher than represented in the game. Hawaii never actually launched these raids so the theoretical discussion might take place for that base. But there is no doubt massive raids were launched from Tinian that can not be presently replicated in the game.


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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 2:59:17 AM   
bklooste

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Regardless, I agree that the rules seem to preclude the possibility of launching the big raids that historically occurred.

well that is the thing. this is not a theoretical discussion of what might have been. the big raids were launched from Tinian. Therefore the ability must have existed. So to discuss if the correct base size is silly. It actually really happened, many many times. Therefore the base size, in actual practice, is higher than represented in the game. Hawaii never actually launched these raids so the theoretical discussion might take place for that base. But there is no doubt massive raids were launched from Tinian that can not be presently replicated in the game.




Its not so simple as that in AE terms Tinian operated overstacked just look at this pictures with 250 B29s thats overstacked. Even if it were level 9 it still wouldnt launch massive raids the engine just doesnt do it. The fact that even with undamaged aircraft it took 3 days shows it was running into some real life limits.

Persaonally nothing should be level 9 unless it has at least 4 air fields ( not runways) .

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 4:20:35 AM   
wwengr


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Status: offline 		The B-29 Raids were launched from six different fields in the Marianas.

Tinian had the North Field which operated until March, after which operations were transferred to the larger West Field. At peak Tinian had no more than 1 Bomb Wing - 4 Bomb Groups composed of 12 Squadrons total (313th Bomb Wing until march, 58th Bomb Wing after).

Saipan had the 73rd Bomb Wing (similar composition) on Isley Field on Saipan. The Seventh Air Force had a handful of assorted squadrons on East Field in Saipan.

Guam had two Bomb Wings operating, 313th and 315th, on North Field and Northwest Field respectively. Also, Guam had a few Seventh Airforce Squadrons on Agana Field.

I think the issue isn't that Tinian is undersized in the Game, but rather Guam is undersized at SPS 5.

The Marianas B-29's operated for a period of 250 days flying the first mission on December 8, 1944 and the final mission on August 14, 1945. The largest single day was August 1, 1945 when 784 B-29's struck targets in Japan. The smallest day flown was on August 6, 1945 when 3 aircraft flew to drop the first atomic bomb.

During that 250 day period missions were flown on 116 days (134 days with no mission flown - 46% of days). Of the 116 days, 186 days had less than 100 aircraft flying missions about 75% of all days) (19 days had missions totaling 100-199 aircraft; 10 days had 200-299 aircraft; 5 days had 300-399 aircraft; 10 days had 400-499 aircraft; 10 days had 500-599 aircraft; and 2 days had greater than 700 aircraft.

References:


One other note: A large number of the missions flown were aerial mining, recconassaince, and naval search missions

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/2/2010 4:32:12 AM >

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 4:42:39 AM   
freeboy

 

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Status: offline 		Those numbers are great, but remember Japan was not a target rich environment buyt hte end of the war, so in theory we could have seen much more should the need for them been in existance... my point being those numbers probably are not a good indication of potential if we are using history as our yardstick...
intersting though...

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 5:12:01 AM   
wwengr


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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

Those numbers are great, but remember Japan was not a target rich environment buy the end of the war, so in theory we could have seen much more should the need for them been in existance... my point being those numbers probably are not a good indication of potential if we are using history as our yardstick...
intersting though...


History is the yardstick here. If what you say was true, then we should have seen the operational tempo decrease toward the end. Exactly the opposite the tempo increased continuously and was at its peak in the days preceding the surrender of Japan. Curtis LeMay would rather have dropped bombs on rubble and ash than let up. The Generals were not sitting on their thumbs for lack of targets. Every effort was being made to drive Japan to capitulate and to that end, they were working all resources as hard they could. Massive resources were spent to keep the Marianas bases operating as fast as they could and they put every plane they could over targets in Japan.

Hundreds of planes were lost to "operationall losses" and in the historical narratives there were numerous examples of Tinian's operations being disrupted by a single aircraft mishap on the airfield. Why do the photos of Tinian show the field jam packed aircraft parked nose to tail between the runways? Look at a topo map. There was no where else to put them. There was barely space to move a single aircraft let alone move ammunition, crews, fuel, and maintenance vehicles too.

One thing is clear if you look at the chronology. The best tempo that could be sustained was a big attack about every three days, but that occurred only for short bursts. Here is the data set derived from the offical chronology. Have a look yourself.



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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 7:32:11 AM   
JohnDillworth


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quote:

Of the 116 days, 186 days had less than 100 aircraft flying missions about 75% of all days) (19 days had missions totaling 100-199 aircraft; 10 days had 200-299 aircraft; 5 days had 300-399 aircraft; 10 days had 400-499 aircraft; 10 days had 500-599 aircraft; and 2 days had greater than 700 aircraft.

OK,has anybody been able to reproduce those larger numbers? 35+ raids with over 100B-29's? I got a raid of 60 once from Calcutta but has anybody been able to regularly get 100+ b29 raids?

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(in reply to wwengr)
Post #: 27
RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 7:38:47 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		Haven't got there yet, but perhaps the real issue is that the sortie rate in WitP is high compared to RL so - given the size of the Marianas bases and the same 250 day time line - can you fly the same number of sorties (or more, or less) than historic? I agree that both Tinian and Guam are undersized based on historic fact BUT - if they were of historic size, would it unbalance or skew the end game?

B

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 28
RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 9:22:10 AM   
bsq


Posts: 517
Joined: 1/5/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Of the 116 days, 186 days had less than 100 aircraft flying missions about 75% of all days) (19 days had missions totaling 100-199 aircraft; 10 days had 200-299 aircraft; 5 days had 300-399 aircraft; 10 days had 400-499 aircraft; 10 days had 500-599 aircraft; and 2 days had greater than 700 aircraft.

OK,has anybody been able to reproduce those larger numbers? 35+ raids with over 100B-29's? I got a raid of 60 once from Calcutta but has anybody been able to regularly get 100+ b29 raids?


Played through to October 45 before abandoning that game temporarily and I only once managed to get 120 B-29s over Tokyo using all 3 Marianas locations.

Even trying it by rotating groups or setting 2/3rds to rest I could not do it.

Here's what I think the in game issue is.

The airfields are over-stacked the moment you place more than a couple of Sqn's active.
Over-stacking causes:

  • 25% of bombing missions to abort
  • Higher than normal op losses
  • Maintenance penalties


So the first point slews your ability to launch historical raids every three days because you have no idea what will launch (ie do you set 30% to ops or 40% to ops - to get 30% flying??)
The second point seriously degrades your ability to conduct any meaningful ops as your losses are so high.
The third point means that your damaged planes aren't ready when it's their turn again so your groups fly those that are (just off ops) adding more 'run of the mill' damage to those frames.

I have no idea why it was done, but for the airfields in the Marianas not to be able to support all the groups that were placed there needs to be explained in terms of the in game mechanics - because as things stand (whilst it may be WAD) it's not as it was IRL - even with figures that wwengr has come up with.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)
Post #: 29
RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 10:05:16 AM   
Sardaukar


Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline 		Are you having Air HQ or several there? Air HQ with command range off 3 or more should alleviate some of the overstacking problems.

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(in reply to bsq)
Post #: 30
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