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Game is not broken, History is!

 
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Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 2:04:59 AM   
fbs

 

Posts: 1048
Joined: 12/25/2008
Status: offline 		It's not only the in-game random number generator that produces freak results... sometimes the Cosmical Random Number Generator also produces completely unexpected outcomes in real life.

So, which battles had freak, unexpected results?

My pick: Midway... if only that search plane had gone out...


Cheers
fbs

< Message edited by fbs -- 1/2/2010 7:38:30 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 2:11:15 AM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		History is brokenm LOL
omg we could sell this stuff!!!
Anywho, I just saw a pbem result, a night Bomber attack agaisnt a CV! wow, I forgeotten to change the units to day, they had been making night runs against the Rising son empire at Rabaal.. anyway seemd appropriate.. anyone know did any night air attacks against cv's uccur?

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 2:19:02 AM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, the early 43 attack against Truk saw a successful night torp attack against a US CV.

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:01:26 AM   
freeboy

 

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Status: offline 		 thanks

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:12:24 AM   
borner


Posts: 1485
Joined: 3/20/2005
From: Houston TX
Status: offline 		Midway is good, but how about Nagumo sending the second strike as planned from two carriers, then when the Yorktown group was sighted, sending the reserve planes armed for sea attack on them. When the US strikes come in there would be far less "critical hits".

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:35:40 AM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		Image the howls if this ever happened in the game ...


9 August 1944
PB4Y (VB 116) crashes on takeoff from Stickell Field, Eniwetok, and burns amidst the 340 planes in the carrier aircraft replacement pool area; 106 (F6Fs, FMs,SB2Cs, and TBMs) are destroyed

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:48:46 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs


It's not only the in-game random number generator that produces freak results... sometimes the Cosmical Random Number Generator also produces completely unexpected outcomes.

So, which battles have freak, unexpected results?

My pick: Midway... if only that search plane had gone out...


Cheers
fbs

sorry, while I agree that 'history can be stranger than fiction', I don't feel Midway is a good example.

Yamamoto put Nagumo's carriers in a very difficult situation. Nimitz (with the benefit of excellent intel) but Spruance and Fletcher in a very good situation.

Blame often gets placed on a single float plane, but the whole search pattern to the NE was weak because Nagumo did not expect the US CVs to be there--which is why Nimitz had put them there...

While the KB was a suberb offensive weapon, the 4 CVs were very fragile and CAP coordination was rudimentory.

The US pilots and were adequately trained and the SBDs were a very good offensive weapon. Although the US CVs were not well trained in multiple carrier strike coordination, the size of the airgroups were adequate to overwhelm the rudimentory IJN CAP coordinaton even with poorly coordinated strike packages.

Predictable outcome in my book. Luck always plays a role, but remember the USN came very close to not losing a single carrier. It would have been more of a miracle if Nagumo had been able to pull off any sort of victory in the situation in which his boss placed him.

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 4:53:36 AM   
fbs

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wirraway_Ace

sorry, while I agree that 'history can be stranger than fiction', I don't feel Midway is a good example.




Alright, then I change my election to the torpedo on Bismarck's rudder. That was like roll 20 twice on d20.

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Post #: 8
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 5:17:25 AM   
jazman

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: fbs

It's not only the in-game random number generator that produces freak results... sometimes the Cosmical Random Number Generator also produces completely unexpected outcomes.

So, which battles had freak, unexpected results?

My pick: Midway... if only that search plane had gone out...



Problem was not a single float plane...entire doctrine was broken, among which was search.


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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 5:17:45 AM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline 		agreed. The 818 and 810 squadrons rolled a "20".

I still argue that Mutsu blowing up at random or a single spread of torpedoes sinking a CV, a DD and damaging a modern BB would cause a revolt on the AE forum if it happened in the game.


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Post #: 10
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 5:24:12 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		Yes I have to agree there; that Midway was more about faulty IJN operational doctrine, than it was about freak results. I have always wonder that if the Japanese could put a perfectly coordinated strike package together from up to six Carriers. Why did they no have any form of coordinated Fighter direction above their Carriers, other than their CAP basically directing itself with dire results.

On another note I find that the Battle of Midway, and the sinking of the German BC Scharnhorst off North Cape are very similar in the way these operations unfolded. Both the IJN and Kriegsmarine were faced with an enemy force from an unexpected quarter, and of an unexpected force compensation. That both Command structures reacted similarity, insofar as they both though the force they were facing was not a threat.

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 6:39:49 AM   
Bradley7735


Posts: 2073
Joined: 7/12/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

History is brokenm LOL
omg we could sell this stuff!!!
Anywho, I just saw a pbem result, a night Bomber attack agaisnt a CV! wow, I forgeotten to change the units to day, they had been making night runs against the Rising son empire at Rabaal.. anyway seemd appropriate.. anyone know did any night air attacks against cv's uccur?


Intrepid took a torpedo from a Betty flying at night. I think that was the '43 example posted above.

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 7:43:44 AM   
Puhis


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From: Finland
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bradley7735

Intrepid took a torpedo from a Betty flying at night. I think that was the '43 example posted above.


The night of 17 February 1944 an aerial torpedo struck Intrepid's starboard quarter, 15 feet below her waterline, flooding several compartments and jamming her rudder hard to port.

According to some sources, the plane might have been radar-equipped Kate.

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 8:31:47 AM   
Gunner98

 

Posts: 5508
Joined: 4/29/2005
From: The Great White North!
Status: offline 		I think if this one was replicated - there would be some screeming -

In the last two weeks of May, 1944, [USS] England destroyed six Japanese submarines: I-16, RO-106, RO-104, RO-116, RO-108 and RO-105.

B

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 9:58:34 AM   
bklooste

 

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quote:

Alright, then I change my election to the torpedo on Bismarck's rudder. That was like roll 20 twice on d20.


Dont forget it was from an attack of 5 bi planes in really bad weather. Her rudder/3 shafts layout was a fatal flaw though.

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 11:17:12 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
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From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

Yes I have to agree there; that Midway was more about faulty IJN operational doctrine, than it was about freak results. I have always wonder that if the Japanese could put a perfectly coordinated strike package together from up to six Carriers. Why did they no have any form of coordinated Fighter direction above their Carriers, other than their CAP basically directing itself with dire results.

Bad quality of radio equipment. While its importance was clearly understood as early as 1939, the Japanese industry was simply unable to make radios that were both good and small enough to fit on fighters.

Anyway, by standards of 1942 Japanese fighter direction worked great. And stopping multiple strikes from different directions, coming in the middle of carriers' own strike operations, was a huge problem even for American carrier TFs late in the war. The primary cause of Midway debacle was overconfident operational planning which put KB at a massive disadvantage.



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Post #: 16
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 11:37:30 AM   
FatR

 

Posts: 2522
Joined: 10/23/2009
From: St.Petersburg, Russia
Status: offline 		To think of it, RL day-one Japanese attacks were one long string of lucky breaks. Pacific Fleet and AA defenses in PH being in the lowest theoretically possible state of readiness (for example, on December 7th airmen and ground support on Oahu were just given a rest after particularly intensive week-long drills), all early warnings being ignored until it was too late, the raid delay on Philippines actually working in Japanese's favor and so on.


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Post #: 17
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 11:51:22 AM   
wdolson

 

Posts: 10398
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Near Portland, OR
Status: offline 		On two occasions ships loading ammunition in the US blew up.  Port Chicago is the better known.  An LST at Pearl harbor blew up while loading ammunition for one of the invasion in 1944.  It took out several other ships nearby.  The Pearl Harbor incident caused the Navy to change their procedures for ammunition handling and loading on invasion ships.

At Midway, the Japanese had stacked the deck against themselves with bad doctrine and bad operational planning. The USN also had a major stroke of luck with two carrier loads of SBDs appearing over the KB at almost the exact same moment from two different directions virtually undetected. At that, Commander Best of VB-6 saved the day by redirecting his vic of SBDs against orders and going after the Akagi while the rest of Enterprise's SBDs went after the Kaga. If Best hadn't done that, the US would have faced the Hiryu and Akagi in the next phase of the battle.

At Midway, the US did have a lot of luck that allowed them to capitalize on Japanese mistakes on a scale almost never seen in naval history. Chances were low that the Japanese were going to win at Midway, but the chances the USN was going to win on that scale was also low.

Bill



< Message edited by wdolson -- 1/2/2010 11:57:05 AM >

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 1:46:52 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		How about losing 3 DD's and hundreds of planes to a typhoon?  Is that modeled in the game?

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Post #: 19
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 2:42:54 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

Image the howls if this ever happened in the game ...


9 August 1944
PB4Y (VB 116) crashes on takeoff from Stickell Field, Eniwetok, and burns amidst the 340 planes in the carrier aircraft replacement pool area; 106 (F6Fs, FMs,SB2Cs, and TBMs) are destroyed


Probably a 4-5 pages thread?

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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 2:53:50 PM   
Monter_Trismegistos

 

Posts: 1359
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From: Gdansk
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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
9 August 1944
PB4Y (VB 116) crashes on takeoff from Stickell Field, Eniwetok, and burns amidst the 340 planes in the carrier aircraft replacement pool area; 106 (F6Fs, FMs,SB2Cs, and TBMs) are destroyed

Was this "plane dissapearance from pool" bug fixed in RL version of WitP? :P


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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:15:01 PM   
Knavey

 

Posts: 3052
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From: Valrico, Florida
Status: offline 		Hmmmm....

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Post #: 22
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:16:34 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		I think an AE exploding in a port would lead to the most wailing and gnashing of teeth. You would wreck just about any port in the game if that were to happen. Think about the explosion in Corpus Christi, if my memory serves me that flattened most of the port. Can you imagine if PH or Truk had their port reduced to 0 for 3-6 months


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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:24:23 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Has anyone lost a ship yet to ammo handling accident, a la Mutsu, in-game?



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Post #: 24
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 3:25:57 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Thankfully no.

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Post #: 25
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 4:18:20 PM   
bretg80

 

Posts: 289
Joined: 6/8/2009
Status: offline 		The Japanese lost at Midway because they were over confident and they had no reason to suspect US carriers in the area. So their guard was down and they were beaten by a surprise attack, just like the American's at Pearl. Most people will not fare well in a surprise encounter and if they do it is usually by luck. The Japanese had a little luck at Midway, they did get one Carrier. It could have been a total loss.



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Post #: 26
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 5:02:05 PM   
jwilkerson


Posts: 10525
Joined: 9/15/2002
From: Kansas
Status: offline 		This is probably possible to see in AE ...

Call it 0/20/0/0 damage to USS Washington due to ramming by USS Indiana.






Attachment (1)

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Post #: 27
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 5:13:29 PM   
Canoerebel


Posts: 21100
Joined: 12/14/2002
From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		The "weird things happen in war" is a great feature of AE.

But if a "weird things happen in war" thing becomes a norm, rather than an isolated, unpredictable occurrence, you may have a problem.



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Post #: 28
RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 5:21:25 PM   
warspite1


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From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson

This is probably possible to see in AE ...

Call it 0/20/0/0 damage to USS Washington due to ramming by USS Indiana.






Warspite1

Whoops! Nice picture by the way - never seen that before.

The British had a few tragic accidents - Queen Mary sinking the cruiser Curacao, KGV or DOY sinking a destroyer, the cruiser Calcutta sinking the Canadian destroyer Fraser. Did the US Navy have anything similar in terms of severity?


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RE: Game is not broken, History is! - 1/2/2010 6:09:26 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
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Status: offline 		I don't think so; most of our collisions appear to have been between equal sized ships.

Looking through the Sunk Ship list in my CG, I've run into a number of "unknowns" as to cause, and at least one "collision" (an AKL IIRC).  There's also several small subs that have listed "hit obstruction", plus one CA listed as being sunk by .303 MG fire!

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Post #: 30
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