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Short Scenarios?? - 12/27/2009 11:14:58 PM

Zaratoughda

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I noticed someone mentioning 'Road to Minsk' here in the forums and was wondering if this is indeed a scenario that is planned?

I imagine it would only be a couple of turns long but that would be a great intro into the game.

What would be even nicer, is follow up scenarios, one that is along the lines of the old SPI game 'Panzergruppe Guderian' (e.g. the attack on Smolensk), and another that would be hypotetical, an attack on Moscow that would come right after that, instead of the flanking move on Kiev that happenned historically. Then, would be nice if there were scenarios that strung the first two or even all three together.

One of the things I liked in Western Front that was not in Second Front, was the fact that you could start with the Italian front and get a handle on that, and then play the Operation Overlord campaign, and then play the entire campaign with both of these together. You didn't have to bite off the whole thing at once, could ease into it, and what you learned could be used later. In Second Front, you had scenarios like Typhoon and Case Blue, but, these had nothing to do with Barbarosa and in fact I never played the campaign game in Second Front.

Lastly, I would expect there are a LOT of players like me that don't want to bite off the entire campaign to start and would prefer to ease into it... and having scenarios along these lines would facilitate that.

Zaratoughda

P.S. Hmmmm. I guess you could do things along these lines with AGN and AGS. Again, a lot of players IMO would prefer the smaller campaigns rather than biting off the entire campaign game.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 12:02:27 AM

elmo3

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Scenarios are a work in progress right now with lots of testing going on. Too soon to say how many will be in the final release. Stay tuned...

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 2:30:30 PM

Josh

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" Lastly, I would expect there are a LOT of players like me that don't want to bite off the entire campaign to start and would prefer to ease into it... and having scenarios along these lines would facilitate that. "

Oh absolutely! I think it would scare off a lot of potential buyers if there was only *one huge scenario*. And as much as I am interested in this game, just the sight of this huge map scares the heck out of me. So therefore I'd really like to see some smaller scenarios for casual gamers like me.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 2:45:33 PM

PyleDriver

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Well we have the Typhoon and Uranus scenario's in testing now. What is so good is we have a great editor for the game, and after release you could see, well God only knows, so many more small scenarios. You have to remember Gary is working so hard on the AI, and every sub game will require his hand...

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 3:03:04 PM

PyleDriver

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Ok guys, heres a ss of what the game will include at release, Joel if I'm wrong bring out your big stick and beat me agian...lol....Were looking at geting this game out this summer, so there must be stop points on wish lists...

Attachment (1)

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 5:42:20 PM

Joel Billings

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That list is what we have done work on so far. Our hope is to put out between 8-10 scenarios with release, and then hopefully put out additional official scenarios after release while helping the game's community use the editor so the community can come up with many more scenarios (some of which might become official in future patches). I can't say yet exactly what we will get done for release.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 5:46:57 PM

Pford

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quote:

Well we have the Typhoon and Uranus scenario's in testing now.

Not Case Blue?

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/28/2009 5:52:04 PM

Joel Billings

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pford

quote:

Well we have the Typhoon and Uranus scenario's in testing now.

Not Case Blue?

That's one of the 3-5 that we still have on the drawing boad. It is also one of the most likely to be included since it is a subset of the 42 campaign.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/29/2009 3:43:16 AM

Zaratoughda

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Scenarios like Typhoon, Case White, Uranus, etc, are nice standalone scenarios but the problem is, they don't tie directly into the campaign game and so what you learn there is not directly applicable to the campaign game.

On the other hand, if there was a short, 1 or 2 turn 'Road to Minsk' scenario, that would be great as it would allow players to get into the game without having to bite off too much (there are some of us that have a life outside the game).

Then, would also be nice if there was another short, 1 or 2 turn scenario, 'The Battle of Smolensk', that players could try as a second scenario with again, not having to bite off a huge amount.

Then, would be nice if there was a 3rd scenario, 'Road to Smolensk', that would tie the first two scenarios together.

Would also be nice (again, just with AGC) if there was a hypotetical scenario on an attack on Moscow if they had gone that route instead of the Kiev flanking maneuver, and another, 'The Road to Moscow', that tied these first three together, but maybe these two can wait until after the first release.

But still.... given at least the first two, should then be 'Road to Leningrad' and 'Road to Kiev' scenarios to cover the first couple of months of AGN and AGS.

And even beyond that..... a campaign game that ends with the first mud (at the end of September), another that ends with the first snow (sometime in December) and another that ends after the Soviet counteroffensive.

Hmmm.... not all players would play all scenarios, some would play this and that and others another choice, but would be nice to get some scenarios that haven't already been PLAYTESTED TO DEATH <g>.

And these scenarios would be EASY to put together, with most of them using the same starting forces and positions as the campaign game except just a subset of them.

Hmmmm.... user developed scenarios are 'nice' but not official and thus lack the same appeal.

Whatever... if 2x3 goes this route IMO WITE would appeal to a much broader range of players that it would without them.

Zaratoughda

P.S. Who would ever play the '42 campaign game? Or the '43 campaign game? Well, maybe the later if you really want a Russian offensive campaign game.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/29/2009 4:08:47 AM

Captain B

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Even just a short "learning scenario" in a smaller map section with instructions (like in some of the HPS PC games and the Battleground series games) would be a great help. Tough to learn all new rules and jump right into a campaign game

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/29/2009 4:43:39 AM

Joel Billings

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We hope to have one very small map tutorial scenario, and Uranus, which is another small scenario. We also hope to have one scenario that is the initial few months of the 41 Campaign. We'll get as many scenarios as we have time for and data people to build them. Once the basic campaigns are solidified, it is much easier to put together smaller scenarios that use these as starting points. I expect that we'll be able to recruit some more scenario builders, if not before release, after release, and will be able to get more scenarios eventually released as official scenarios.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 12/29/2009 3:57:12 PM

Josh

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joel Billings

We hope to have one very small map tutorial scenario, and Uranus, which is another small scenario. We also hope to have one scenario that is the initial few months of the 41 Campaign. We'll get as many scenarios as we have time for and data people to build them. Once the basic campaigns are solidified, it is much easier to put together smaller scenarios that use these as starting points. I expect that we'll be able to recruit some more scenario builders, if not before release, after release, and will be able to get more scenarios eventually released as official scenarios.

That's fine with me, and since I consider myself to be a casual player, I reckon it's fine with most (average/beginner) gamers. Just one or two small scenarios to get the feel off it, a small "real" scenario, and off you go to the real thing.
I bet once this game hits the market lots of home made scenarios will arrive anyway, maybe a few months after release as an add on.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/3/2010 10:58:48 AM

ydejin

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I'll put in another vote for more smaller-size scenarios. I found with WitP the game was just to big for me to get my head around without smaller scenarios to start out with.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/3/2010 1:03:15 PM

elmo3

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Typhoon is shaping up nicely as a smaller scenario. Currently it's 15 turns and has a relatively small map.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/3/2010 10:13:18 PM

AZKGungHo

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I also am looking forward to lots of small scenarios, but am not so concerned that they all ship with the game. If they are brought out a bit later that's okay, as long as there's a good tutorial and a couple of exciting small ones with the game, alongside the longer ones, that's good enough for me!

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/7/2010 3:55:16 AM

Zaratoughda

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The problem with Typhoon is that what you do there has nothing to do with the first 4 months of the campaign game. In Second Front, Typhoon was in fact the only scenario that I played to completion, tried Case Blue some but never even tried the campaign game.

I would agree that Typhoon in WitE is a 'smaller' scenario but I would not call it a 'small' scenario (yeah, pretty nit picking with choice of words here <g>).

On Rugged Defense, a web site supporting TOAW scenarios, they have an interesting parameter for all scenarios, 'complexity', and it is simply the unit count TIMES the number of turns. This is a good benchmark for how big or small a scenario is.

A 2 turn AGC 'Road to Minsk' scenario, now that is what I would call a SMALL scenario, and the nice thing about such a scenario, is what you learn has direct applicability to the campaign game.

As far as a tuturial, I never play tutorials because I do not like being told what to do <g>. But, I realize some play the tutorials but, to simply learn the game, might go with a REALLY small scenario... maybe something like... Velikiye Luki. Would be nice to do that, with tuturial or not, and just get the game mechanics down and then go on from there.

Zaratoughda

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/7/2010 8:21:10 AM

KarlXII

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I wonder if there would be any scenario covering the last year 1944-1945. The chaotic battles after operation Bagration of Armygroup Center in summer 1944 left the center open for breakthrough.
Will there be any scenario from the offensive into Romania or Hungary ? Or Poland in the winter of 1944-1945 ?

I suppose it is much harder to get a clearer picture of the dispositions but it is always fun to play critically defensive battles with german forces.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/7/2010 11:15:46 AM

elmo3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: karlxii

I wonder if there would be any scenario covering the last year 1944-1945. The chaotic battles after operation Bagration of Armygroup Center in summer 1944 left the center open for breakthrough.
Will there be any scenario from the offensive into Romania or Hungary ? Or Poland in the winter of 1944-1945 ?

I suppose it is much harder to get a clearer picture of the dispositions but it is always fun to play critically defensive battles with german forces.

I believe a '44 campaign scenario is planned but not ready for testing yet. The '43 campaign should give the Axis plenty of opportunities to defend as well.

Other scenarios will just depend on time available and priorities between now and launch.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/12/2010 10:38:05 PM

notenome

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I vouch for scenarios based on their uniqueness, as such things like the siege of smolensk would be an interesting scenario, as its different than what you would normally deal with. The 2nd battle of Kharkov was interesting, some part of the winter counteroffensives. Or maybe a scenario that acompanies the axis retreat after/during Stalingrad, which would be a very nice change of pace scenario. Another interesting option could be something in regards to the murmansk operation, to placate some of the more (and I'm not one of them) disgruntled fans.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/20/2010 10:35:08 AM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3

I believe a '44 campaign scenario is planned but not ready for testing yet. The '43 campaign should give the Axis plenty of opportunities to defend as well. Other scenarios will just depend on time available and priorities between now and launch.

A Bagration scenario, or even shorter, a Vistula-Oder-Berlin scenario would be nice. But there needs to be a stop line at the Elbe and also the entry of certain German late war reinforcements and the 12th Army need to be looked into. BTW I received your PM Zaratoughda

< Message edited by Silvanski -- 1/20/2010 10:39:26 AM >

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/20/2010 8:59:51 PM

SGHunt

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Can I suggest Operation Mars for a short and exciting operation - I was gripped by the descriptions in Glantz's book. Great attack and counter attack options, in terrible terrain in deep snow.

4 turns and a fairly small map area would seem right for the sort of short sharp action some have asked for, but with Soviet forces of some 668,000 men and 2000 tanks, there is plenty of room for flexibility.

My first post here - this game looks to be shaping to be the next big thing! The Alpha design elements sound superb.

Best wishes for the Beta testing and scenario development
von Jaeger

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 1/20/2010 10:22:11 PM

paullus99

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Mars would be good - an overlooked battle that deserves its recognition.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 2/6/2010 3:17:31 AM

Captain B

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A late scenario (44-45) could be done and was in fact a board game by S&T/SPI in the 70's I think it was called "The Destruction of Army Group Center". Man I wished I had kept all of those games from the 70's...be worth a mint right now.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 2/6/2010 3:24:21 PM

AZKGungHo

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I've still got some of mine, but not all of them! I sold some off for cash a long time ago. Yes, that was a fun divisional level game that I played quite a bit.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 2/10/2010 5:03:34 PM

Cavalry Corp

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PLEASE get away from the silly small buttons like WITP , what is the facination with using the smallest buttons possible :)

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 2/11/2010 1:34:01 PM

jaw

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Captain B

A late scenario (44-45) could be done and was in fact a board game by S&T/SPI in the 70's I think it was called "The Destruction of Army Group Center". Man I wished I had kept all of those games from the 70's...be worth a mint right now.

I seriously doubt it. When I switched to computer wargaming in the mid-1980s I was able to sell a lot of my games at around 50 cents on the dollar but when I tried to sell the remainder a few years back there were no takers. I ended up giving them away.

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RE: Short Scenarios?? - 2/11/2010 7:06:25 PM

thackaray

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This request may technically be unfeasible but it's worth a try!

Could we have a short scenario that's starts on June 21 1941 and lasts 1 turn, but has the option of lasting for almost another 4 years ?