RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's

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RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 10:05:45 AM

bklooste

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

I have no idea why it was done, but for the airfields in the Marianas not to be able to support all the groups that were placed there needs to be explained in terms of the in game mechanics - because as things stand (whilst it may be WAD) it's not as it was IRL - even with figures that wwengr has come up with.

It CAN support them , the designer decoded hostorically some of these fields operated overstacked which i agree with. If they were in England or Hawaii with a bit of time to work the raids would have been far better organised and coordinated .

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Post #: 31

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 10:29:46 AM

bsq

Posts: 517
Joined: 1/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

Are you having Air HQ or several there? Air HQ with command range off 3 or more should alleviate some of the overstacking problems.

Yes indeed, I have the XXI at Tinian and the XX at Saipan (the 7th AF is at Rota and there is a USN Command at Guam - can't recall which).
This gives me a maximum of 12 administered groups at these locations - about 1/2 of what is required and considerably less than there was IRL.

My reading of the rules is that only the best HQ adds its command rating to the group numbers - so as the best allied HQs have a command rating of 5, then that's all you can add.

(in reply to Sardaukar)

Post #: 32

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 10:38:36 AM

bsq

Posts: 517
Joined: 1/5/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

I have no idea why it was done, but for the airfields in the Marianas not to be able to support all the groups that were placed there needs to be explained in terms of the in game mechanics - because as things stand (whilst it may be WAD) it's not as it was IRL - even with figures that wwengr has come up with.

It CAN support them , the designer decoded hostorically some of these fields operated overstacked which i agree with. If they were in England or Hawaii with a bit of time to work the raids would have been far better organised and coordinated .

Saipan and Tinian served but one purpose in the war - to operate B-29s. They did so in such a fashion as vast tracts of the Japanese cities were obliterated.

I live in Lincolnshire, an area bigger than a single hex in WITP-AE, crammed full of airfields in WWII and it did not support anywhere near the number of bombers that Saipan, Guam and Tinian did.
The raids from the Marianas were coordinated, planned and executed properly. Nothing was done on a 'shoestring'. It housed a numbered air force, headed up by possibly the best architect strategic bombing that the US ever produced (Spaatz fans might disagree). The fact that crews flew once in three days probably had a lot to do with crew fatigue, maintenance and planning cycles (plan, bomb, BDA, plan etc) in the same way as it still does today.

< Message edited by bsq -- 1/2/2010 10:41:57 AM >

(in reply to bklooste)

Post #: 33

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 11:13:44 AM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

[
Over-stacking causes:

25% of bombing missions to abort

Higher than normal op losses

Maintenance penalties

Increased ops losses are determined by plane vs AF size, not by overstacking, I think.

What manual says about effects are:

p214
If a base has less Aviation Support than is required, level bomber offensive missions are reduced by 25%.

If an Airfield has too many aircraft (physical space) or groups (administrative) present, then the airfield is deemed overstacked. And is indicated by an �*� next to the airfield.

An overstacked airfield affects how many aircraft can be launched, casualties from attacks and aircraft repairs.

A 9+ airfield does not suffer from overstacking.

An airfield can operate 50 single engine (or 25 two engine, or 12 four engine) planes per AF size or 1 group per AF size. The best Air HQ of the same command as the base which is within range can add its command radius to the number of groups that can be administrated, or if not in the same command, the nearest HQ will add � its command radius to the number of groups.
In addition, groups at rest or in training only count as 1/3 for the purposes of counting aircraft at the base, and don�t count at all against the number of of groups. Split groups only count as individual groups if they are attached to different HQs.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 1/2/2010 11:14:20 AM >

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Post #: 34

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 11:15:31 AM

Sardaukar

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From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

So, apparently, those bases should be changed to be under command of that Air HQ, If I read that correctly.

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Post #: 35

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 12:20:02 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

So, apparently, those bases should be changed to be under command of that Air HQ, If I read that correctly.

Not exactly. The Command Headquarters that the Base and the Air HQ are attached to must be the same.

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Post #: 36

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 12:53:02 PM

Sardaukar

Posts: 9847
Joined: 11/28/2001
From: Finland/Israel
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sardaukar

So, apparently, those bases should be changed to be under command of that Air HQ, If I read that correctly.

Not exactly. The Command Headquarters that the Base and the Air HQ are attached to must be the same.

Yes, I think you are correct.

Even though changing the base under AirHQ would surely guaranteee that.

_____________________________

"To meaningless French Idealism, Liberty, Fraternity and Equality...we answer with German Realism, Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery" -Prince von B�lov, 1870-

(in reply to wwengr)

Post #: 37

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 12:54:54 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

...This gives me a maximum of 12 administered groups at these locations - about 1/2 of what is required and considerably less than there was IRL...

Look at this article and note the dates United States Army Air Forces in the Central Pacific Area

Tinian never had more than 12 squadrons located on the entire island at one time. The sole exception was the 509th Composite Group that had 15 planes. During their time on Tinian, they flew very few missions and only launched two or three planes when they did. Their sole purpose was to drop two atomic bombs on Japan. So, you could say that was 13 Air Groups on Tinian, at peak.

EDIT: I misread the dates. At peak, Tinian had 24 Squadrons in 8 Bomb groups plus the 509th composite, hence a total of 25 Air Groups physically located on Tinian.

Saipan had 12 squadrons of B-29's. For a short period of time early in the Marianas bombing campaign, 30th Bomb group had three squadrons of Liberators there, but these were moved out when the B-29 raids started to pick up. There were also 3 fighter squadrons, 2 night fighter squadrons, 1 photo recon squadrons, and 1 transport squadron on Saipan at points, but most were not there during peak B-29 ops.

Guam had 24 squadrons of B-29's at peak plus a hand full of other assorted squadrons. Guam is the base that is undersized.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/2/2010 2:27:08 PM >

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Post #: 38

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 1:42:53 PM

wwengr

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From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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Including bombing, aerial mining, recon, and naval search missions, the operational tempo for June, July, and August produced daily average numbers of sorties of 128, 168, and 201 aircraft respectively (note that August was only 14 days). All three bases, built out to the maximum with an Air HQ will effectively allow a total of 33 active squadrons on mission status (plus count 1 at each base for all squadrons on training or rest) and 274 4E aircraft (87 on each of Tinian and Saipan - size 7' 100 on Guam - size 8).

Let's look just at August and ask is it possible to maintain daily strikes of 201 aircraft. Since aircraft in squadrons on training or rest count as 1/3, then the total number of aircraft that can be on all three bases is X = 201 + 73/(1/3) = 420 total B-29's (201 flying out of 420 - about half of all squadrons on rest on any given day). If you micro-manage your ops, it should be possible for short a short duration without over-stacking.

IRL - The B-29 Operations from the Marianas for lost 267 aircraft to Operational Losses (not due to combat). Also on any given raid over Japan more than 1/4 of all aircraft never made it to drop bombs on their assigned target. if you want to mimic what happened to the best extent possible, go ahead and overstack, but understand that the shocking number of ops losses actually occured and the high rate of mission aborts occured.

Understand that the algorithm is a complex model with both deterministic and Monte Carlo elements. If you understand a little about computer modelling and the nature of modelling complex systems, then you know that it is exceptionally difficult to build an algorithm that works very much like real life. It could be done, but then the AE team would be a bunch of professors at a large number of universities working with scientists at JPL and Sandia and AE would be due out in Septemeber of 2019 with an affordable price tag of only $27,921.13 per user license.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 1/2/2010 1:47:26 PM >

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I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

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Post #: 39

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 2:00:49 PM

JohnDillworth

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Joined: 3/19/2009
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quote:

Tinian never had more than 12 squadrons located on the entire island at one time.

Still something missing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Field_%28Tinian%29. 265 hardstands were built in North field alone. So with an average squadron size of 10 planes there are more than 2 hardstands for each bomber? Even if we go with the 12 squadrons at 10 planes each that leaves a theoretical capacity of 120 bombers. At that is at North field alone. Add to that West field and Tinian should have been able to comfortably support 100 bomber raids day after day, providing the aircraft are available. Clearly, the game does not allow that.

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Post #: 40

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 2:21:09 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: JohnDillworth

quote:

Tinian never had more than 12 squadrons located on the entire island at one time.

Still something missing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Field_%28Tinian%29. 265 hardstands were built in North field alone. So with an average squadron size of 10 planes there are more than 2 hardstands for each bomber? Even if we go with the 12 squadrons at 10 planes each that leaves a theoretical capacity of 120 bombers. At that is at North field alone. Add to that West field and Tinian should have been able to comfortably support 100 bomber raids day after day, providing the aircraft are available. Clearly, the game does not allow that.

The Wikipedia article showing organizations and bases for USAAF in the Central Pacific is accuarte to the extent that I researched. I looked through a number of other documents to verify the information.

I was mistaken the dates and numbers. Tinian had double the number of squadrons that I stated by the end. It was 24 Squadrons in 8 groups, plus the 509th composite group using the two main airfields. (definately overstacked...)

I don't know as I have not been able to find all of the details. It is probably a safe assumption that a significant number of hardstands were used for the regular flow of replacement aircraft and maintenance floats. Some of the squadrons had more than 10 planes. Also, a couple of accounts talked about when a mishap would happen they would have to move airplanes to the other side of the field. You can probably assume that not all of the hard stands were occupied at any one time.

I am in agreement that the real capacity of the Marianas bases was probably a little higher than

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to JohnDillworth)

Post #: 41

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 3:14:56 PM

bsq

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Op losses (and others) for B-29's can be found here:

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/AFrptsMO.htm

Takes a bit of digging but it lists all overseas losses, where there is an accident report - hence an 'op loss'.

(in reply to wwengr)

Post #: 42

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 4:13:52 PM

JohnDillworth

Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
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quote:

Op losses (and others) for B-29's can be found here:

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/AFrptsMO.htm

Takes a bit of digging but it lists all overseas losses, where there is an accident report - hence an 'op loss'.

Dang, there is a guy who took out 8 B-29's in a single takeoff accident in May 45. Point taken about them being packed close together.

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Post #: 43

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 6:00:03 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

Op losses (and others) for B-29's can be found here:

http://www.aviationarchaeology.com/src/AFrptsMO.htm

Takes a bit of digging but it lists all overseas losses, where there is an accident report - hence an 'op loss'.

Thanks! Great reference. The two biggest B-29 days flying out of the Marianas were August 1, 1945 (784 planes) and August 14, 1945 (741 planes). What is really interesting is that there is not a B-29 single crash report for either of these days. Two aircraft were lost on North Field in a taxi accident (taxiing aircraft hit parked aircraft) on August 2, 1945. That was probably on the return from the big raid.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to bsq)

Post #: 44

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/2/2010 7:07:08 PM

JohnDillworth

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quote:

hanks! Great reference. The two biggest B-29 days flying out of the Marianas were August 1, 1945 (784 planes) and August 14, 1945 (741 planes). What is really interesting is that there is not a B-29 single crash report for either of these days. Two aircraft were lost on North Field in a taxi accident (taxiing aircraft hit parked aircraft) on August 2, 1945. That was probably on the return from the big raid.

What is scary is how many operational losses there were. Not for the losses but for the seemingly violent nature of them. Bad enough you had to fly thousands of miles to be shot at but not a week seems to have gone by without a seemly fatal accident at each and every airfield.

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Post #: 45

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 12:11:11 PM

Andrew Brown

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From: Hex 82,170
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Interesting thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
...given the size of the Marianas bases and the same 250 day time line - can you fly the same number of sorties (or more, or less) than historic? I agree that both Tinian and Guam are undersized based on historic fact BUT - if they were of historic size, would it unbalance or skew the end game?

For me those are the issues as well. How do the long term sortie rates (under optimum arrangements) manageable in the game compare to the Real Life rates?

Andrew

(in reply to Gunner98)

Post #: 46

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 12:52:34 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

Sorry whats the problem ??

Out of 549 B29's between Tinian and Saipan

385 were in the main raid and 77 straggled over

Seems ok to me thats with lvl 7 AF's and air HQ present.

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jan 01, 45
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 144
B-29-25 Superfort x 169
B-29B Superfort x 72

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 120

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 11
B-29B Superfort x 11

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 damaged
B-29B Superfort: 1 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 8

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 18

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 2 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 10

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 7

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 21,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 2

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Tokyo , at 114,60

Weather in hex: Light rain

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 20,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

(in reply to Andrew Brown)

Post #: 47

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:01:37 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

That was 26 sqns on Tinian and 19 on Saipan

I suffered 4 ops losses which is just under 1% for an unopposed raid.

500+ are ready next day but I would rest for at least a day before going again because of fatigue

p.s. that one raid cost me 10,000 supply points

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 48

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:22:16 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

OK two days later I split targets

312 from Tinian
234 from Saipan

of these

234 in the main raid on Osaka with 23 stragglers - total 257 hit the target
101 in the main raid on Nagasaki with 40 stragglers total 141 hit target

Ops losses were 2

I really dont see the issue sorry ?

Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 114
B-29-25 Superfort x 90
B-29B Superfort x 30

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-1 Superfort: 2 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 47

Aircraft Attacking:
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
12 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
14 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
5 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
8 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 11

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 damaged

Heavy Industry hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 24,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

No Allied losses

Heavy Industry hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Osaka/Kyoto , at 109,59

Weather in hex: Partial cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 23,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 1 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-1 Superfort x 9
B-29-25 Superfort x 39
B-29B Superfort x 43

No Allied losses

Naval Shipyard hits 32

Aircraft Attacking:
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
10 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29B Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 18 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
3 x B-29-1 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 26,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 26

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 2 damaged

Naval Shipyard hits 4

Aircraft Attacking:
9 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
4 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 25,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 18

Allied aircraft losses
B-29-25 Superfort: 4 damaged

Naval Shipyard hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
7 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb
11 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Afternoon Air attack on Nagasaki/Sasebo , at 102,58

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 22,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 12 minutes

Allied aircraft
B-29-25 Superfort x 6

No Allied losses

Naval Shipyard hits 1

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x B-29-25 Superfort bombing from 20000 feet *
City Attack: 10 x 500 lb GP Bomb

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 49

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:24:02 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

in total for the two raids and two days of standown I have used 30,000 supplies

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 50

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:27:44 PM

tocaff

Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline

Tinian was a huge facility and the only thing the USAAF neglected was base housing as the B-29 crews lived in tents. Not to allow a huge concentration of B-29s in the Marianas to operate as they did in reality is to take the teeth out of the USAAF bombing campaign against Japan. So, to me, the question is why not fix this?

_____________________________

Todd

I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 51

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:33:56 PM

Andy Mac

Posts: 15222
Joined: 5/12/2004
From: Alexandria, Scotland
Status: offline

Fix what ? I am able to lauch 450 plane sorties every three days by just having HQ's there - what problem are we tryiong to solve a perception that Tinian should be a nine ?

Sorry do not understand the issue

(in reply to tocaff)

Post #: 52

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:36:27 PM

bklooste

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bsq

The raids from the Marianas were coordinated, planned and executed properly. Nothing was done on a 'shoestring'. It housed a numbered air force, headed up by possibly the best architect strategic bombing that the US ever produced (Spaatz fans might disagree). The fact that crews flew once in three days probably had a lot to do with crew fatigue, maintenance and planning cycles (plan, bomb, BDA, plan etc) in the same way as it still does today.

No one is saying a shoe string here a size 7 base is a very major base. The planning is not really relevant , you can have great planning from a size 1 field. If you had 16 runways from 5+ fields each could form up formations in much smaller times and coordinate them better , you can also receive the planes better with less operational losses from damaged units though compared to the raids on Germany that was less of an issue. The fact your on an island with limited real estate limits what you can do.

The designer has mentioned in many threads MANY historical operations were done from bases which operated above there IDEAL levels that does not mean they operated poorly just not ideally.

_____________________________

Underdog Fanboy

(in reply to bsq)

Post #: 53

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:42:42 PM

bklooste

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andrew Brown

Interesting thread.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Gunner98
...given the size of the Marianas bases and the same 250 day time line - can you fly the same number of sorties (or more, or less) than historic? I agree that both Tinian and Guam are undersized based on historic fact BUT - if they were of historic size, would it unbalance or skew the end game?

For me those are the issues as well. How do the long term sortie rates (under optimum arrangements) manageable in the game compare to the Real Life rates?

Andrew

If your not getting damaged ( which B29s prob wont) you can operate daily until fatigue and morale fall too much.

Note the parking accidents ( and obviously the care they need on taxing) is IMHO a perfect example of an overstaqcked base. Not that it matters as you can simply add a HQ there and get effective rating of 9.

_____________________________

Underdog Fanboy

(in reply to Andrew Brown)

Post #: 54

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 1:48:17 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Fix what ? I am able to lauch 450 plane sorties every three days by just having HQ's there - what problem are we tryiong to solve a perception that Tinian should be a nine ?

Sorry do not understand the issue

Through all of the investigation that I did for this thread and Andy Mac's combat results, I have become convinced that the game designers did a good job of selecting base sizes for Tinian and Saipan. Looking at the raid sizes that Andy got flyng out of Tinian and Saipan, it seems evident that the Marianas bases for the game are quite capable of producing near historical results.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 55

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 2:01:28 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Fix what ? I am able to lauch 450 plane sorties every three days by just having HQ's there - what problem are we tryiong to solve a perception that Tinian should be a nine ?

Sorry do not understand the issue

when I see the raids you�ve posted I don�t see a problem either. Looks perfectly fine to me and this is not what other people have "said". Now you�ve posted an actual combat report that pretty much convinces me it does just fine.

10.000 supplies for one such raid sounds nice too, will really take an effort to supply the Superforts.

_____________________________

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 56

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 2:06:47 PM

JohnDillworth

Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline

It just seems to me that Tinian is a least a 7 to start. Again, it was the largest airfield in the world in 1945. To have it as a level 4 seems inaccurate. It is hard to make the case for any other airfiled or base to be larger. So to have Port Morseby as a 9 and Tinian as a 4 seems incorrect. Morseby never support raids of the magnitude that were launched out of Tinian. at lease 6 8,000 foot runways with 11 miles of taxiways and 250+ dedicated hardstands to service each bomber. support facilitied to handle these massive beasts. Armours, supplies, radar, etc....What is being implied is that an 8,000 foot surfaced runway is not worth 1 base point. there were at least 6 of them plus a few smaller runways.

_____________________________

(in reply to wwengr)

Post #: 57

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 5:49:29 PM

Puhis

Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline

Tinian is just 101 km2 small island. That is under 5 % of one hex. Tinian had something like 6 runways, one hex can have hundreds. It's not about size of the one airfield, it's about how many airfields there can be. I think max 7 is enough. No problems, like Andy Mac proved.

(in reply to JohnDillworth)

Post #: 58

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 8:42:29 PM

Barb

Posts: 2503
Joined: 2/27/2007
From: Bratislava, Slovakia
Status: offline

Port Moresby had something like 6 or 7 airfields. It was also the main "theather combat training" center, forward maintenance, R&R center and dont know what else. Surely there was more space than on Saipan/Tinian/Guam.

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(in reply to Puhis)

Post #: 59

RE: How to get Tinian in shape for B-29's - 1/4/2010 8:48:28 PM

JohnDillworth

Posts: 3100
Joined: 3/19/2009
Status: offline

quote:

Port Moresby had something like 6 or 7 airfields. It was also the main "theather combat training" center, forward maintenance, R&R center and don't know what else. Surely there was more space than on Saipan/Tinian/Guam.

more space perhaps, but I am not sure it had the ability to launch more aircraft for sustained operations. In 1943 Port Morseby was the largest airfield in the world. It was eclipsed by, you guessed it, Tinian in 1945. I am using wikipedia as source which might no be entirely accurate, but to have Tinian at less than half the size of Port Morseby does not seem correct.

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(in reply to Barb)

Post #: 60