Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

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ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

clearly you don´t know anything.

i´m one of the testers. and the game is almost finished.

I hate people that take about something they don´t know anything about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

After reading all the bull that michaelbaldur wrote, his very last line is the most telling...."embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve."

I got news for you asshole....neither you, I, nor anyone else deserves anything!

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

After reading all the bull that michaelbaldur wrote, his very last line is the most telling...."embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve."

I got news for you asshole....neither you, I, nor anyone else deserves anything!

I think you're a little confused about who wrote the bull (and is, presumably, the asshole): michaelbaldur's on your team. But in any case, you should have a little more esteem for yourself. Once again, I'd love to hear responses that discuss content, not fanboy ad hominems.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

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ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

clearly you don´t know anything.

i´m one of the testers. and the game is almost finished.

I hate people that take about something they don´t know anything about.

Shannon's latest update would seem to disagree with your assessment:


"Project Management
About mid-year I had a long conversation with David Heath and Erik Rutins. All of us want MWIF to be bug-free (to the best of our knowledge) before release. Presently there are too many bugs and I really don’t know how long it will take me to fix them all."

And of course, that's just bugs. AI? Best case scenario is 4 of 11 scenarios, at some indeterminate time. The list goes on.

I'm am curious to hear from a tester, though: How does the current version differ significantly from the original ADG beta?

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I will buy you a version of the game. if the game is not released in 2010.

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

After reading all the bull that michaelbaldur wrote, his very last line is the most telling...."embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve."

I got news for you asshole....neither you, I, nor anyone else deserves anything!

I think you're a little confused about who wrote the bull (and is, presumably, the asshole): michaelbaldur's on your team. But in any case, you should have a little more esteem for yourself. Once again, I'd love to hear responses that discuss content, not fanboy ad hominems.

Content:
CWIF contained only 3 scenarios.
CWIF had a much shorter list of optional rules & WIF add-ons.
CWIF graphics were designed to run under Win98; they had no resemblance to the WIF FE map. The counters had no bitmap graphics for individaul units.
CWIF had two pages of doumentation (a TXT file). There was no documentation on the game itself other than a reference to the ADG PDF file of the rules.
CWIF was only for play on 1 computer.

quote:

ORIGINAL: composer99

Crusss:

If you have bothered to go back through this thread to cut and paste hoped-for release dates of MWiF, then you might also have read the various explanations as to why the development programme implemented by Matrix is appropriate for this game (among other reasons, its niche-market status). If you disagree, perhaps you can explain to us how WiF can appeal to a large enough market to justify the expense of a team of developers and support personnel and the recruitment of dozens/hundreds of testers to get it out the door more quickly?

Since you are the one making the claim that the rights to WiF need to be "turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game" it is up to you to demonstrate that such companies exist. You are also the one claiming that "CWiF [...] is being held hostage by Matrix" so it is your responsibility to provide evidence that this is true. The thousands of forum posts here show that Steve and the various contributing volunteers have been working steadily at bringing the game to completion, so I am not certain how you can justify the 'hostage' comment.

With regards to your comment: "After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI." Once again, this is your claim. It is up to you to prove you are right. It is not up to current beta testers to prove you wrong.

It is all well and good to complain about delays in the release of the game, but unless the people doing so are able to articulate superior alternatives to the current manner in which MWiF is being developed, then the developers and us 'fanboys' have no reason to do anything but dismiss it as bellyaching. Personally speaking, I don't have anything against bellyaching, but unless there is more than just 'this game is taking too long to come out!' behind it then why should I, or anyone else, take it seriously?

And finally, CrusssDaddy, you appear to be mis-applying the ad hominem fallacy. Since you do not appear to have come forward with any "content" to discuss, it is hard to see how anyone who has disparaged you is distracting the rest of us from your arguments via their insults.

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

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ORIGINAL: Shannon V. OKeets

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ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

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ORIGINAL: J P Falcon

After reading all the bull that michaelbaldur wrote, his very last line is the most telling...."embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve."

I got news for you asshole....neither you, I, nor anyone else deserves anything!

I think you're a little confused about who wrote the bull (and is, presumably, the asshole): michaelbaldur's on your team. But in any case, you should have a little more esteem for yourself. Once again, I'd love to hear responses that discuss content, not fanboy ad hominems.

Content:
CWIF contained only 3 scenarios.
CWIF had a much shorter list of optional rules & WIF add-ons.
CWIF graphics were designed to run under Win98; they had no resemblance to the WIF FE map. The counters had no bitmap graphics for individaul units.
CWIF had two pages of doumentation (a TXT file). There was no documentation on the game itself other than a reference to the ADG PDF file of the rules.
CWIF was only for play on 1 computer.

Your initial release is only going to have four scenarios with AI, which is the most important part for me. Your comments about the difficulty of the AI makes your plan to release additional scenario AIs on a monthly basis seem very optimistic, and you only have to look at HOI3 for evidence of misplaced optimism in the face of a difficult AI task.

Optional rules are window dressing, stick to fundamentals. That's what follow-up patches should be for.

Graphics are window dressing, were talking about a hex-and-counter wargame, not HALO.

We all learned to play the beta with just that flimsy little .txt, so how crucial can it be?

After seven years, 'MWiF' is for play on 0 computers, so I see only a step backward.

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

I thought maybe Crusssdaddy could have said what I have been feeling all along nicer, but I think the niceness has run its course. I can imagine what all the good olde boys who back Steve and Matrix to the hilt will say, which will be their typical defending of the very long delayed and way overdue MWIF. Not to be be too negative but the offer to buy the game in an above post is a sure bet that that poster will not have to put out any money in 2010. I believe with my heart and soul that the mollycoddling by a lot of you posters that has gone on here for the last five years has caused all the angst that everyone is starting to feel about now, and anyone here who says that there not fed up in their heart with delay after delay of this conversion to the computer is a deep profound PROCRASTINATOR. And after reading that last report from Steve I believe this will not be done this year, I do hope I am proven wrong for the sake of all the very fine posters and game players who try very hard to hold their emotions in check about what is going on here with Steve and Matrix and the terrible delays, maybe some of you fine gentlemen that post here should read a pamphlet by Thomas Paine called "Common Sense" and common sense tells me that something is very wrong here about this conversion, jump all over me if you want I expect it but please use your common sense about this before you blast me.

Bo

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

quote:

ORIGINAL: Arctic Blast

Crussdaddy and bo...it's really a very simply equation. Adding to a game's development team increases the cost of development. In turn, that means the game will need to make more money to recover development costs and make a profit.

Let's be honest...this is a niche title. This is not going to sell hundreds of thousands of copies. It is not going to show up in any but the most niche of wargaming retail outlets. It isn't going to be available from every digital retailer known to man. It isn't going to be in any of those places because it wouldn't sell in this locations.

Adding even one more developer doubles the costs per day of developing a very niche wargame. That in turn doubles how much revenue the game has to generate. The profit margins of niche wargames are small to begin with. Therefore, it wouldn't exactly make a ton of sense to do.

Diminished expectations become a self-fulfilling prophecy. If Matrix thinks WiF is not fit, from a projected sales point of view, to receive a proper allocation of resources, then that is simply additional proof of my contention that they are the wrong publisher for WiF, and their development 'plan' is a failure engineered and destined to live down to their expectations.

WiF is not an unknown with no visibility. It is a respected and well-regarded game with a quarter-century legacy behind it. Have some pride and confidence in the property, and certainly don't settle for a half-assed effort from an indifferent publisher. Don't enable failure with, "Oh wow, everyone's working so hard someday it'll be great, but we can't expect anything... we're just a little bunch of little pissants and all..." No market? C'mon, grow a pair. In the seven years CWiF has languished, Paradox has released HOI, HOI2, and HOI3 - that's a three-part franchise created from whole cloth! How many Gary Grigsby games has Matrix released in the last seven years? Seems like a thousand. Don't tell me there's no market.

S
E
V
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Y
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A
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S
!

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

quote:

you cannot always get what you want

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562

I propose that we give Steve the Ironman award. After all he has stuck to this program with extreme dilligence. Even in the face of adversity his skin must be made of Iron or Steel to ignore a lot of these posts. Or, he must have one heck of a good sense of humor and constantly rolls on the floor in laughter at some of these posts. In which case maybe we should pay for a hip replacement.

Anyways, I have said this over and over. 
It will be done when it is done. 

quote:

ORIGINAL: abj9562
By the way does anyone get the feeling the Crussdaddy may also be Werewolf. The tone and the style of writing seems very similiar to me anyways? Just a thought.

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

quote:

ORIGINAL: CrusssDaddy

Let's cut the crap. It's time to be done with amateur hour, and with a company that could care less if WiF is ever played on computer. CWiF (let's not prolong the joke that is 'MWiF') is being held hostage by Matrix. Not sure what type of deal ADG got snookered into, but if there is any means of reverting the computer rights, they need to be turned around and shopped to companies actually interested in completing and releasing the game.

Seven years, folks. Shannon you tried, but this task is plainly beyond the abilities of yourself and a cast of volunteers - whether that's due to a lack of support or talent doesn't matter. At least moving on will save you the indignity of cutting-and-pasting more New Year's Resolutions to be broken. Time to set fanboy-ery aside and put away the silly smileys. After seven years, the current product is functionally indistinguishable from the old beta I play every week - limited scenarios and no AI. That's all that really matters. Graphics are sweetened, there're historical descriptions, and some bugs removed? BIG F'IN DEAL.

At some point, results have to trump effort. After seven years with Matrix, CWiF still hasn't reached that point, and so it's time to admit the failure of the current model and look elsewhere. That's not going to happen if every too-little effort is celebrated, every noble failure is backslapped and 'atta-boyed, and every New Year is celebrated with the same tired thank yous and prayers for progress. I've written this post to encourage Matrix and Shannon to step away honorably. I'll email ADG with the same thoughts and an exhortation to find a company worthy of the CWiF brand. Not sure what I else I can do. I hope others will join me in taking off their rose-colored glasses and embarking on a course of action that might result in the CWiF product we deserve.

clearly you don´t know anything.

i´m one of the testers. and the game is almost finished.

I hate people that take about something they don´t know anything about.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

Come on guys, there are some cons:

- 7 years
- still not a definitive date
- delays on previous dates

And there are some pros:

- A game entirely (until what is human to ask) bug-free. Or at least critical bugs-free. This is not very common.

- A niche title that is invaluable for us followers of wif.

- An IA which is essential. In fact, probably it will be essential to more like a 90% of the public objective than the 50%+ of the survey, which was made in an ever more hardcore group, we the ones who follow the developement in the website.

For ones, like for me, the balance is in favour of the pros by far. For others, it's the opposite. We have expressed this and gave arguments for our opinions, insisting once and again in this, calling names to the people or pressing Steve is just trolling in my opinion.

Steve, i offer an advice: Don't give too much importance to these comments, there is a lot of people who support you and your honest way to develope the game. Paying attention to disdainful comments that only mean to itch you is not necessary, since all these matters have been debated and explained already. If somebody goes on with this song it's because of personal reasons.