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A note from the past - 1/10/2010 4:24:31 AM

madgamer2

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Please don't take this as a negative rant as it is not intended to be so. The AE design and test teams did there best to create a multi level micro managers dream navel war simulation. Although I think there is a long way to go before the game is stable it will I think get there.
I have two or three questions for you to THIHK about (not just gut react to)
1. For the micro manager types: is there ever a point where you will say "this is enough, this has all the detail I want? I believe the majority of gamers do NOT fall into this group but this group is well representeed in this forum because AE is the most setailed, game of its type ever. It won't be enough for the hard core as it is a built in responce to want more of something you love. WitP has all the detail I can handle and then some so for me the answer is yes.

2. To Matrix & the development and test team that worked so hard I would say that I don't think that micro manager type gamers will ever have enough detail to play with. I can see that with in the next decade more accurate and detailed games will be possible and I see us ever involved in the donkey and the carrot syndrome/ The problem as seen with AE is with more complexity comes more problems and fixs,updates and patchs.

I think that I speak for a large group of gamers who are glad that Matrix is still putting out games for those of us who want good games without all that micro management, and perhaps a little less costly.

As computers get better the game designers will be able to design games that will let players dial in the amount of detail they want that goes beyond games such as the ones that allow rules choices. I see games that will make AE look simple and primitive. As for me WitP is complex enough and with luck in a year or two after AE is stable we may get that patch they promised and it may even fix the pilot problem. It will be awhile before I can or will plunk down the soon to be $90 price. I see also that this price will be the norm and even the low for a game of this complexity and I will due to my fixed income will maybe afford 1 or 2 games a year. Just think where we were game wise 10 years ago compared to today......the future is bright for those who can afford it.

Madgamer

Post #: 1

RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 4:32:17 AM

freeboy

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I somewhat agree if you are try to say this is a very much a dream come true for those inclined to love the details.. others of us like games and big picture warfare.. others like .. well different things!

I do not agree, and simply for others that my be reading this not familiar with AE.. about the game being stable... perhaps balanced?.. was the word you wanted.. this game is SUPER stable, Ihave literally thousands of hours in witp/witpae... most pbem, and would never invest so much effort i nan unstable platform.. no crashes.. NONE!! just for the casual gamer out there who may see this post and thing AE is unstable.. most of us here.. ok I will give you that but the platform works

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Post #: 2

RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 4:51:08 AM

Jim D Burns

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Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer
1. For the micro manager types: is there ever a point where you will say "this is enough, this has all the detail I want?

Nope, as far as I�m concerned you can never have enough detail in the game, just as long as it strives to be as historically accurate as possible. We still have pretty much a pure fantasy scenario in game, so there is a long way to go to get the history right and plenty of new details to add to keep this puppy alive for another 5 years easily.

I realize a game like this is daunting and overwhelming to a lot of people, but this is the only massive micromanagers dream game like it, so please don�t try and turn it into some less detailed mass appeal game. There are plenty of games out there that cater to the masses, so leave all the details in this one be and help add some more.

Jim

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 5:38:16 AM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
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quote:

ORIGINAL: madgamer

Please don't take this as a negative rant as it is not intended to be so. The AE design and test teams did there best to create a multi level micro managers dream navel war simulation. Although I think there is a long way to go before the game is stable it will I think get there.
I have two or three questions for you to THIHK about (not just gut react to)
1. For the micro manager types: is there ever a point where you will say "this is enough, this has all the detail I want? I believe the majority of gamers do NOT fall into this group but this group is well representeed in this forum because AE is the most setailed, game of its type ever. It won't be enough for the hard core as it is a built in responce to want more of something you love. WitP has all the detail I can handle and then some so for me the answer is yes.

2. To Matrix & the development and test team that worked so hard I would say that I don't think that micro manager type gamers will ever have enough detail to play with. I can see that with in the next decade more accurate and detailed games will be possible and I see us ever involved in the donkey and the carrot syndrome/ The problem as seen with AE is with more complexity comes more problems and fixs,updates and patchs.

I think that I speak for a large group of gamers who are glad that Matrix is still putting out games for those of us who want good games without all that micro management, and perhaps a little less costly.

As computers get better the game designers will be able to design games that will let players dial in the amount of detail they want that goes beyond games such as the ones that allow rules choices. I see games that will make AE look simple and primitive. As for me WitP is complex enough and with luck in a year or two after AE is stable we may get that patch they promised and it may even fix the pilot problem. It will be awhile before I can or will plunk down the soon to be $90 price. I see also that this price will be the norm and even the low for a game of this complexity and I will due to my fixed income will maybe afford 1 or 2 games a year. Just think where we were game wise 10 years ago compared to today......the future is bright for those who can afford it.

Madgamer

Madgamer,

My opinions: Which really didn't take much time to think about.

1) WITP-AE was never intended for the casual gamer.
2) I really am not sure what you mean, as WITP-AE is all-in-all pretty stable.

Your vision of the future of gaming I believe is farther off than you think. And I really doubt any game is going to make WITP-AE look simple and/or primitive. Sure more bells and whistles will come along, but that is fluff and not substance. As for prices, it all depends upon the game. As you have said a large number of times you can't afford it it yet. Even if you could you may not like the complexity. Please think about this before you purchase it. It would make me sad for you to buy it and find you don't like it. Money is scarce for most people now a days, and yet for people on fixed incomes it is always this way.

As far as I know the schedule for the WITP patch has not changed. It is coming one of these days. I don't know if the pilot bug is fixable or not, I hope so. We will see.

Be well,

_____________________________

Flipper

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 5:43:00 AM

madgamer2

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No I Met "Stab;e"; that is a the ability to be played for long periods without having to restart due to patchs,hotfix's or what ever. I find it fascinating that a person would or could find the time to play this game and lead a normal life. Heck I am retired and I could not find the time to even do justice to WitP.
No matter how good a game is it is just a game and I have a life to live which is by far more interesting than a game and I am 69. I just do not wish to play a game that requires me to do so much of the detail of the game. I am begining to think that games like WitP and AE ar not Grand Strategic level but Grand tactical level games. So as good as they are I just have no desire to invest the time in them. This is in part due to not having the time to PBEM,and in part due to the fact that I can not make any sense out of the Jap Production rules, supply rules and a few others so I would be a worse PBEM player than the AI.

Madgamer

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Post #: 5

RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 6:02:28 AM

freeboy

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Well, those who are not detail folks, ca nmuddle along, I am anti detail, and yet do ok, After patch 2 my pbem have had zero interuptions do to HF's..
But you are correct when you say this could have been done in a way that allowed those so inclined to look under every rock to have there game, and others like you to spend less effort turning over the rocks and spending your time throwing them..

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Post #: 6

RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 6:26:36 AM

madgamer2

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Being 69 I started playing games on the Apple 2. I am not a "casual gamer" at least not till the last few years when things like working on my singing/songwriting and other things started to take more time. Having never been married I have time but I think I am busier now than when I was working.
You are right that witP/AE ARE not for casual gamers. I knew there would be a point in my life I would get to where I just would not be willing to devote the time needed to do a game properly. I still play WitP now and again along with Oblivion. When I say I can't afford a game it has nothing to do with the game. I could not play AE well enough to PBEM but as with WitP I love to dabble and olay a few turns.
I do not have the money at times to get from one month to the other and I am going to have to be very careful because of medical bills. In the last 6 months I have bought 2 games.
What I met about AE and the next decade is that the AE of 10 years will be so much better we will wonder how we were able to get along without the new version. I have a computer friend who has told me of some of the things that will become reality in the next 10 years and it going to be amazing.

I am not sure what I am to do about my own future as I live alone with my two cats and have things to do and friends but I have less to spend and I may have to move out of my mobile home into a retirement community which I do not want to do. I don't mind being old as long as I can stay active but when I go to the store and buy the same stuff I bought 5 years ago and it cost more I have not increased my income that much....well I don't want to bore you.

Stay well Live long and Prosper.....

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Post #: 7

RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 6:38:16 AM

madgamer2

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Interesting reply........you might have to explain to an old dumb 69 yr. old guy who did not learn English.......Well I am kidding a bit but I do like the way you put things things. I am just mad at myself for not thinking of a more colorful way to say what you said.
I would like to think that what every comes after AE (AE II?) finds ways to let the computer do some of the drugery in a much better way than it does with some of the stuff in WitP/AE than it does now. Even so there will always have to be a way to do it yourself.......

thanks for the reply
Madgamer

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 10:19:44 AM

freeboy

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yep, I stil can't figure out how to use on board human controled convoys for repeat supply and fuel runs, So I so a system of major bases... PH for example I try to keep well fed, and then from there to my Pear in the South Pac, Suva.. from each of these also I feed the smaller outlying bases.. Trust me, its harder for me to manage this than all my what air goes to what hq in what rejoin ?'s in response to the overwhelming power of early Jap expansion... serious! I love the what fleet goes where big picture stuff, but tryingto get the right sized merchant carrying a engineer to an atol, my word that is hard. I gues some have equipment that is too big to unload??? whatever, to much detail for my taste, NOT TOO MUCH just for me I am inclined to look atthe big picture and work deductively, not loving the process of managing all the stuff.. which it seems many do, and more power too you, seriously.. I am just not wired that way.. neither is better... I just prefer to manage bigger picture details.. so my friend take heart , you are not alone loving and hating this monster....
Did you see they put in blimps!!! lol WOW, and next we will be seeing ? no worries guys , still the best naval strategy big picture monster there is, for now!

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 1:21:16 PM

wwengr

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If you want to play a campaign game, then you will need MMPD (Micro Management Personality Disorder) and BLD (Borderline Lifestyle Disorder). This is true even if you play historical with production off, auto-convoy, etc. There are some of the scenarios that are made perfectly for the more casual gamer.

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 4:39:19 PM

madgamer2

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Perhaps you are not retired & 69 yys. old and have the funds, but i can't just buy games that cost as much as this one does just to play a few shorter games designed you say for "the casual gamer"
I think you are way off the mark here. If I spent the money that this game costs it ain't for no casual game. I have come to believe that what we have here is a first in the computer game war game. It is not a Strategic level game but a Grand Tactical Pacific war game.
If I was younger and still working and making the bucks I did I would buy any game just on its subject or game designer or maybe I liked the box art. I can no longer afford such things. I have met the bills and some unexpected stuff as well
but this month is very bad and I may have to try to find part time work and things the way they are I will need divine intervention to do so.

i already live in an old mobile home that has been fixed up with a new roof, insulation and new siding and had plumbing repair as well. I don't mind it but its the cheapest way to live here in eastern Iowa. As things get more expensive I am not sure what I will do.
In the last 8 months I have bought two new games. I play mostly Oblivion and WitP even though it has a bit to much detail for me.,. If I could I would still buy AE even if the manual is 3 times the length of WitP
I think I am the last non micro manager type left on the forum. I kno3w of many who left because they got tired of being ragged by the power PBEM players who seem to think you ain't even in the ballpark unless your one of them and to spend time playing the AI makes you some sort of moron. It ok though I hold no malice to them I just feel sorry that they think all that time devoted to AE is a good thing, while some of us actually have a life even at 69. To each his own. To be honest I did not ask anyone on my Christmas list for this game because of the cost and the actual time I woul spend plasying it and liking it.
There are other gasmes I own that I enjoy playing and wish dearly to have the brain power and the T-I-M-E to devote to AE but I refuse to have to endure the two disorders (there are others) you mention to be able to do that.

Madgamer

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 5:13:37 PM

freeboy

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""If you want to play a campaign game, then you will need MMPD (Micro Management Personality Disorder) and BLD (Borderline Lifestyle Disorder). This is true even if you play historical with production off, auto-convoy, etc. There are some of the scenarios that are made perfectly for the more casual gamer. ""

Guys come on, I was part of the team that did the first published day by day WIPT campaign dec 7 to ethe end of the war.. STOP calling me a casual wargamer becaue I do not value what you value! It is insulting and really missign the mark! Truly yo have not read what either of us has said!!! This is agood game that we willingly invest our time and effort into but desire diferent things as a VALUE CHOICE!

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 5:18:00 PM

stuman

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quote:

It ok though I hold no malice to them I just feel sorry that they think all that time devoted to AE is a good thing, while some of us actually have a life even at 69. To each his own

Nice of you to not have any malice towards anyone. And no need to feel sorry for those of us who enjoy playing the game. Some of us even have lives outside of AE

Sounds like you still play WiTP some. So seems to be no problem then, you can play a game you enjoy to kill a little bit of time maybe, in between doing other things you like outside of WiTP. Sounds like a win-win ! Peace be with you.

< Message edited by stuman -- 1/10/2010 5:19:02 PM >

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 7:32:42 PM

wwengr

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Warning... irony is contained in the message below

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

If you want to play a campaign game, then you will need MMPD (Micro Management Personality Disorder) and BLD (Borderline Lifestyle Disorder). This is true even if you play historical with production off, auto-convoy, etc. There are some of the scenarios that are made perfectly for the more casual gamer.

End of Irony

I meant no offense when I used the label casual gamer. As I am a casual gamer myself, I understand the concern/issues that casual gamers have with this game. We could use a greater abundance of scenarios better suited to casual play as well as some elements of the interface/game play that would make it easier to proceed through a turn.

I stumbled upon WITP and got sucked in to its attractions to my interest in having a more detailed and long term diversion, so I have become more absorbed than I would with most of my other casual pursuits.

Having been around here for a while though, I recognize that WITPAE really is a labor of love by the seriously non-casual gamers. I enjoy the discussions here and appreciate the interests and insight of old and new players alike. I have learned to ignore the occaisional stinging rebuke from one of the self-appointed WITP Gods when I commit some unforgiveable faux pas such as ask about PT boats or something else they hashed out 6 years ago.

I really like this game and perhaps I am being unfair, but I don't think I will buy any other Gary Grigsby or 2x3 games. If WITP is the measure, then those games must be too rich in detail and generally unplayable in any casual play environment. One such diversion is enough!

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

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RE: A note from the past - 1/10/2010 11:54:13 PM

madgamer2

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Yes value choice is correct. There are a fair number of players who like me for perhaps different reasons decided that AE was not for us. It might be a good thing that AE cost so much because if I could have bought it when it was $20 cheaper I would have but even then medical bills madse it out of reach. Perhaps the hardest thig to admit is that I just do not have a mind for the kind of detail AE would require. I also am unhappy that i can't handle a game I truely love like you all do.
So if I had the money I would buy AE and put it on the computer and playaround with it but in the end it would frustrate me. There are times when I think Dirty Harry was wrong when he said "A man has to know his limitations".

The only small point I was trying to make was that I could not spend the money to buy AE if all I could get from it were a few casual shorter games. I was not referring to you as a casual gamer and some how I resented your implication that I WAS a casual gamer which on reflection I do not think you met at all.
After spending all that time working on AE and STILL loving it makes me even sadder that I can't seem to do the same because even playing WitP there are times when it get to be tedious and more like work, plus I would be a joke in a PBEM game. So If I implied something I should not have I am sorry as I did not mean that.

Madgamer

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RE: A note from the past - 1/11/2010 12:06:14 AM

madgamer2

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Yes I know about some being able to handle a complex game and STILL have a life. I have a best friend of 30+ years who is one of the most organized intelligent people on the planet and he has no trouble doing such things. I am a total disaster when it comes to organization due to a kind of brain problem that would be hard to explain. As I get older there is less time I have that I can do something mentally stimulating like playing a game like WitP/AE or other such mentally required things.
I have enjoyed your posts and will continue to do so. For some strange reason I am not able to stop reading the AE forum. Maybe I think if I do it enough it will magically sink in and this light will go on in my old brain and I will exclaim "AH HAH I have it at last......sorry I got carried away there for a minute. May your life be what you desire and may your happiness be be filled with endless hours of
joy with AE.

Madgamer

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RE: A note from the past - 1/11/2010 5:55:08 AM

Pascal_slith

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You bring up a number of interesting points. I myself believe that WitP and now WitP AE would benefit greatly from making 'optional' a number of the micro-management aspects. I also think it would benefit from an expansion of these options (e.g. a more detailed land combat system, expanded logistical system, expanded signals intelligence, the influence of non-Pacific theater outcomes, etc. etc.).

_____________________________

So much WitP and so little time to play.... :-(

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RE: A note from the past - 1/12/2010 2:08:18 AM

madgamer2

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I think if they had an "EXPANSION OPTIONAL RULES ADJUSTMENT TEAM" or something like that this idea might even work. I mean the micro manager types are now happy so why not give some thought to allowing the player a selection of difficulty in certain areas. Between you and I I don't think Matrix would go for it. A poll on either WitP or AE forums would not be useful as most of the non micro management types have left these forums. The only fair chance
is there are large numbers of former non micro manager types (like me) that still check the forum out regularly ....but I would not hold your breath on that point. You and I are in a minority here on the forum but it does make me wonder if they did such a project mentioned here the number of gamers that would return and the number of games that would be sold might increase.

The other thing I will never know is how many out there bought AE and don't play it due to so much detail, or play it in small amounts and are not PBEM players.

Madgamer

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RE: A note from the past - 1/12/2010 2:30:01 AM

sadja

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For people who have MMPD or BLD I salute you, I have ADHD and this game drives me nuts. But guess what I love it. Played 1000 of hours just playing the game WITP and PBEM, made friends and just love doing research. My problem is although I have had computers for over 25 years (apple 2 clone) and have been a war gamer for 50 yeaars (AH Gettysburge) minitures and D&D This game is the most rewarding and entertaining I have ever played. I won't play PBEM until I learn how to use WITP Tracker and how to do these different file stuff. Some of the people on the board are so far above me in the use of the computer that it makes me look like a moron. I would like a scalable game where I can turn off some things and let the computer do it satisfactory in some theaters.

But until then the < 100.00 dollars I spent on this game will pay for itself in entertainment many times over.

One more thing, the AI in this game is fantastic, works differnt plans to achieve the goals and makes for interesting play and is very challenging play.

I can't begin to thank all the Game DEV and other people on this forum that have help or lent advice to myself and other people.