Matrix Games Forums

Forums  Register  Login  Photo Gallery  Member List  Search  Calendars  FAQ 

My Profile  Inbox  Address Book  My Subscription  My Forums  Log Out

RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results

 
View related threads: (in this forum | in all forums)

Logged in as: Guest
Users viewing this topic: none
  Printable Version
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>
Login
Message << Older Topic   Newer Topic >>
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/9/2010 11:22:11 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
Another thing to be noticed from your Wotje invasion is that while the transports were hit, there is no indication that any of the troops they carried were affected except for one pre-invasion action. This could be just a detail left out of the combat reports, or it could mean that damage to the supercargo was overlooked in the routine. You termed it a painful invasion, but the reports shown so far don't give any indication of it being so. 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 361
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/9/2010 11:30:37 PM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Question:

Results were funny but the important question for me is:

What the heck should i do now?

Ive lost WEEKS of family life preparing whole operation. Not only it is fully disclosed but I am a sitting duck.
What the hell am I about to do with this damn situation?

Should I compose my TFs by my best and invade again (probably with similiart results)?
Maybe just give up a game or what?

How much loses will look GOOD?

I am really puzzled here!






I would say "Don't back up." Or, if your opponent feels the results of the invasion were highly skewed, then try this.

Back up to the turn of the invasion. Your opponent makes 1 change, then re-sends you the turn. Making 1 change is to (hopefully) change the randomization and yield different combat results. If it does - great - go with them. If not, stay with what you have.

(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 362
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/9/2010 11:45:27 PM   
WITPPL


Posts: 290
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline
We have already turned back time.


(in reply to witpqs)
Post #: 363
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 12:00:20 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Another thing to be noticed from your Wotje invasion is that while the transports were hit, there is no indication that any of the troops they carried were affected except for one pre-invasion action. This could be just a detail left out of the combat reports, or it could mean that damage to the supercargo was overlooked in the routine. You termed it a painful invasion, but the reports shown so far don't give any indication of it being so. 


This is from July 19th

SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
xAKL Kahuku sinks....
xAKL Mauna Ala sinks....
xAK Santa Monica sinks....

From July 20th

SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
xAK Adabelle Lykes sinks....
SURFACE COMBAT CHECK
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
xAKL Honomu sinks....

From July 22nd

SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
LCT-171 sinks....
LCT-172 sinks....
LCT-178 sinks....
xAK Golden Gate sinks....

SURFACE COMBAT CHECK
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
Amphibious TF 275 unloading at Wotje
Amphibious TF 407 unloading at Wotje
REPAIRING SHIPS
END 12 HOUR PULSE
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
CHECKING TF FUEL
TF'S RETURN TO PORT
Combat Events:
NAVAL REACTION PHASE
LOADING/UNLOADING TASK FORCES
35th Infantry Regiment sub units merging....
35th Infantry Regiment sub units merging....
35th Infantry Regiment sub units merging....
Amphibious TF 276 offshore of Wotje
Amphibious TF 281 offshore of Wotje
Amphibious TF 285 offshore of Wotje
TF 285 retires from Wotje ( 135,115 ) due to damage
Amphibious TF 489 offshore of Wotje
Amphibious TF 238 unloading at Wotje
Amphibious TF 407 unloading at Wotje
TASK FORCE LOADING/UNLOADING COMPLETE
CALCULATING TASK FORCE PATHS
MINESWEEPING OPERATIONS
NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE
ADJUST SHIP FUEL
AIR OPERATIONS PHASE : AM
TF 7 sighted by Japanese Aircraft at 132,115 near Kwajalein Island
PT-249 has spotted a Japanese Recon at 132,115
TF 298 observes Japanese Float Plane at 135,117 near Maloelap
TF 39 followed by Japanese Aircraft at 64,127 near Derby
TF 346 shadowed by Japanese Float Fighter at 41,37 near Cocanada
TF 369 detected by Japanese Aircraft at 211,55 near Astoria
TF 147 sights Japanese Fighter Bomber at 157,51 near Kiska Island
TF 383 shadowed by Japanese Aircraft at 157,51 near Kiska Island
PB2Y-3 Coronado sighting report: 8 Japanese ships at 169,134 near Palmyra, speed 17, Moving West
B-26 Marauder sighting report: Japanese SS at 167,31 near Nome , Speed 10 , Moving East
B-26 Marauder attacking SS I-162 at 167,31
:::::::: SS I-162 is reported HIT
AIRCRAFT LANDING
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
LCT-177 sinks....
LCT-179 sinks....
LCT-180 sinks....
LCT-329 sinks....
LCT-352 sinks....
LCT-360 sinks....
LCT-363 sinks....
LCT-372 sinks....
LCT-374 sinks....
LTJG Hammond L. has been KILLED
LCT-377 sinks....
LCT-464 sinks....


From July 24th

SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
LCT-321 sinks....
LCT-328 sinks....
LCT-351 sinks....
LCT-359 sinks....
LCT-376 sinks....
LCT-463 sinks....
SURFACE COMBAT CHECK
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
LSD Carter Hall sinks....
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
xAK Alcoa Puritan sinks....
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
LCT-320 sinks....
LCT-322 sinks....
LCT-330 sinks....
LCT-350 sinks....
LTJG Craven K. has been KILLED
LCT-354 sinks....
LCT-355 sinks....
LCT-358 sinks....
LCT-361 sinks....
LCT-375 sinks....
LCT-379 sinks....
LCT-465 sinks....


From July 25th

Combat Events:
NAVAL REACTION PHASE
LOADING/UNLOADING TASK FORCES
Amphibious TF 127 unloading at Wotje
Amphibious TF 238 offshore of Wotje
TF 238 retires from Wotje ( 135,115 ) due to damage
Amphibious TF 285 offshore of Wotje
TF 285 retires from Wotje ( 135,115 ) due to damage
Amphibious TF 440 offshore of Wotje
TF 440 retires from Wotje ( 135,115 ) due to damage
TASK FORCE LOADING/UNLOADING COMPLETE
CALCULATING TASK FORCE PATHS
MINESWEEPING OPERATIONS
NAVAL MOVEMENT PHASE
ADJUST SHIP FUEL
AIR OPERATIONS PHASE : AM
TF 93 snooped by Japanese Fighter Bomber at 54,48 near Ramree Island
TF 39 snooped by Japanese Level Bomber at 64,127 near Derby
SS Saury sights Japanese Float Plane at 116,63 near Utsonomiya
SOC-1 Seagull reports submarine wake at 100, 128 near Buna
PB2Y-3 Coronado sighting report: 6 Japanese ships at 111,140 near Rennell Island, speed 18, Moving West
SLDR Kimbrough V. of No.11 Sqn RAF is KILLED
AIRCRAFT LANDING
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
LCT-137 sinks....
LCT-139 sinks....
LCT-170 sinks....
LCT-174 sinks....
LCT-366 sinks....
LCT-369 sinks....

________________________________________________
The ground combat on July 19th

Ground combat at Wotje (135,115)

Allied Shock attack

Attacking force 7581 troops, 168 guns, 279 vehicles, Assault Value = 273

Defending force 3646 troops, 40 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 88

Allied adjusted assault: 7

Japanese adjusted defense: 21

Allied assault odds: 1 to 3 (fort level 5)

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+), disruption(-)

Japanese ground losses:
475 casualties reported
Squads: 2 destroyed, 29 disabled
Non Combat: 5 destroyed, 33 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
1596 casualties reported
Squads: 75 destroyed, 45 disabled
Non Combat: 90 destroyed, 82 disabled
Engineers: 14 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 51 (19 destroyed, 32 disabled)
Vehicles lost 58 (45 destroyed, 13 disabled)

Assaulting units:
27th Infantry Rgt /4
767th Tank Bn /2
102nd Combat Engr Rgt /1
19th Infantry Rgt /4
87th Mountain Rgt /1
39th USN SeaBees /1
808th EAB /1

Defending units:
44th Naval Guard Unit
Wotje Naval Fortress
Wotje Base Force


_________________________________
More results from the operaiton

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 21, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

7 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
AKA Centarus, Shell hits 2 BB Pennsylvania



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging AKA Centarus at 12,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

9 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
APA Heywood, Shell hits 1
BB Pennsylvania



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging APA Heywood at 12,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-Invasion action off Wotje - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

47 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DD Cushing, Shell hits 1
DD Case



DD Cushing firing at Wotje Naval Fortress
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging DD Case at 12,000 yards
DD Cushing fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Wotje

TF 407 troops unloading over beach at Wotje, 135,115





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

6 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
AK Ascella, Shell hits 2, on fire
BB Pennsylvania



12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging AK Ascella at 12,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

49 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
DD Cushing, Shell hits 1
DD Case



DD Cushing firing at Wotje Naval Fortress
DD Case firing at Wotje Base Force
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging DD Case at 12,000 yards
DD Cushing fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
DD Cushing firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging DD Cushing at 3,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging DD Cushing at 3,000 yards

_________________________________________________________________
The next Day. There were some LCU casualties here


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Jul 22, 43
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Pre-Invasion action off Wotje

8 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCT-178, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-171, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-170
LCT-179
LCT-180


Allied ground losses:
89 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 4 (0 destroyed, 4 disabled)


Wotje Base Force firing at LCT-178
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-171 at 6,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-171 at 6,000 yards
LCT-178 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-178 at 1,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-178 at 1,000 yards
LCT-179 firing at enemy troops
LCT-180 firing at enemy troops
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Amphibious Assault at Wotje

TF 238 troops unloading over beach at Wotje, 135,115


Allied ground losses:
71 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 8 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 5 (0 destroyed, 5 disabled)
Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

8 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
AK Ascella, Shell hits 3, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Pennsylvania



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging AK Ascella at 12,000 yards
BB Pennsylvania fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards

________________________________________________________

Some more from July 23rdnvasion Support action off Wotje - Coastal Guns Fire Back!
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

33 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
CA Quincy
CL Perth, Shell hits 3
DD Dent
xAK John B. Floyd



CA Quincy firing at Wotje Naval Fortress
CL Perth firing at Wotje Naval Fortress
DD Dent firing at Wotje Base Force
CA Quincy fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

6 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
xAK John Adams, Shell hits 1
CA Quincy



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAK John Adams at 12,000 yards
CA Quincy fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

8 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
xAK John Adams, Shell hits 3, on fire
CA Quincy



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAK John Adams at 12,000 yards
CA Quincy fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

9 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCT-322, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
LCT-324
LCT-320, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCT-327
LCT-330, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
LCT-350, Shell hits 6, heavy fires, heavy damage



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-322 at 6,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-320 at 6,000 yards
LCT-327 firing at enemy troops
LCT-330 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-330 at 1,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-330 at 1,000 yards
LCT-350 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-350 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-350 at 1,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-350 at 1,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

8 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCT-354, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
LCT-353
LCT-355, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-358, Shell hits 3, on fire, heavy damage
LCT-361, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-362



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-354 at 6,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-353 at 6,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-355 at 6,000 yards
LCT-358 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-358 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-358 at 1,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-358 at 1,000 yards
LCT-361 firing at enemy troops
15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-361 at 1,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-361 at 1,000 yards
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-361 at 1,000 yards
LCT-362 firing at enemy troops


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Wotje
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

3 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Allied Ships
LCT-379, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-375, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-462
LCT-465, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
LCT-466



15cm 41YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-379 at 6,000 yards
12cm 3YT CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-375 at 6,000 yards
LCT-462 firing at enemy troops
LCT-465 firing at enemy troops
12cm 10YT DP Gun Coastal Battery engaging LCT-465 at 1,000 yards
LCT-466 firing at enemy troops

_________________________________
Where the tide began to turn. My troops completely unsupplied. I was not able to get supplies ashore; each try became disrupted and the TF left without unloading. I finally won by sheer mass of troops, and probably the CD guns running out of supply themselves. They were sure never suppressed.


Ground combat at Wotje (135,115)

Allied Deliberate attack

Attacking force 7528 troops, 153 guns, 306 vehicles, Assault Value = 206

Defending force 2767 troops, 39 guns, 0 vehicles, Assault Value = 39

Allied adjusted assault: 58

Japanese adjusted defense: 14

Allied assault odds: 4 to 1 (fort level 5)

Allied Assault reduces fortifications to 4

Combat modifiers
Defender: forts(+), disruption(-), experience(-), supply(-)
Attacker:

Japanese ground losses:
495 casualties reported
Squads: 17 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 31 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Allied ground losses:
457 casualties reported
Squads: 12 destroyed, 17 disabled
Non Combat: 19 destroyed, 22 disabled
Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 29 (17 destroyed, 12 disabled)


Assaulting units:
19th Infantry Regiment
87th Mountain Regiment
767th Tank Battalion
27th Infantry Regiment
102nd Combat Engineer Regiment
129th Infantry Rgt /62
I US Amphib Corps
808th Engineer Aviation Battalion
39th USN Naval Construction Battalion

Defending units:
44th Naval Guard Unit
Wotje Naval Fortress
Wotje Base Force

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

There's more but you get the idea. I also lost two DDs somewhere in there, but I can' t find the report.


_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 364
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 12:13:28 AM   
Mike Scholl

 

Posts: 9349
Joined: 1/1/2003
From: Kansas City, MO
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I checked the TOE in the game and Oahu has only four 16-in guns if I read it right. Also some 14-inchers and railroad 8-inchers, and a pantload of 155s. From discusisons this week it seems as if the game's 16-inch TOE might be light. What was their rate of fire? If they were installed post-WWI, did they have SOTA loading gear? And how many rounds do you get out of a WWI-era barrel? (Not in the game of course.) You left out a boatload of 12-inchers, and a dozen 9.2-inchers..., whereas in your Wotje example the largest defending guns are 5.9", with some 4.7" backup.

I also notice, in looking at my Wotje data, that AKs in the game while under CD fire seem to always be at either 12,000 yds, or 1000 yds, making me think that range is window-dressing in the algorithm. Maybe. I think range ought to be hugely important in target selection, and especially hit rate, followed by target speed and maneuverability, but it might not be that complex as coded. The problem with "speed and manueverability" is that to deliver accurate fire from a ship, speed and manuever have to be curtailed considerably, while to unload the transports they have to stop. But "you're dead" on about there being problems in the targeting program and the shooting algorithm.


(in reply to Bullwinkle58)
Post #: 365
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 12:40:34 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline
tks, moose... those reports certainly cast a different light on the subject compared to the reports you had posted earlier. 

_____________________________

fair winds,
Brad

(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 366
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 1:19:34 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline
Oahu also had 12" mortars and 240mm howitzers capable of hitting targets at 12,000 yds, as well as 5" and 155mm guns at prepared positions.  The 16" guns were there to keep enemy BB's and CA's from getting too close; the 16" guns were added after navies went to that caliber for their most modern BB's.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 367
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 1:33:24 AM   
Grunt


Posts: 111
Joined: 5/17/2004
From: Idaho, USA
Status: offline
I have read the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread closely and skimmed the rest...so sorry if this has been done and commented upon already; but I loaded up the first turn of scen 1 as IJN and, using the forces destined for Kuantan, formed an invasion TF similar to this PH invasion in composition. I then set Bataan as the destination. Bataan, of course, has some serious CD defenses. I saw similar results in that the escorts (PBs, SCs and some DDs...9 or 10 total) soaked up almost all of the fire. Only one xAKL was hit out of approx 60 transports. Did the same with scen 2 and saw the same thing. In each case troops got ashore easily and captured Bataan with the first shock attack.

Definitely apparent to me that the firing routines for CD guns are to target the escorts. Six PBs took multiple heavy caliber hits but remained afloat with 95-99 flt damage.

(in reply to bradfordkay)
Post #: 368
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 2:00:02 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I have read the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread closely and skimmed the rest...so sorry if this has been done and commented upon already; but I loaded up the first turn of scen 1 as IJN and, using the forces destined for Kuantan, formed an invasion TF similar to this PH invasion in composition. I then set Bataan as the destination. Bataan, of course, has some serious CD defenses. I saw similar results in that the escorts (PBs, SCs and some DDs...9 or 10 total) soaked up almost all of the fire. Only one xAKL was hit out of approx 60 transports. Did the same with scen 2 and saw the same thing. In each case troops got ashore easily and captured Bataan with the first shock attack.

Definitely apparent to me that the firing routines for CD guns are to target the escorts. Six PBs took multiple heavy caliber hits but remained afloat with 95-99 flt damage.


That tells me it's not someone's clever invasion preparation, it's a failing subroutine involving the coast defenses when confronted with large invasion forces. Has anyone tried testing this with Allied forces against a Japanese fortified base yet?

(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 369
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/10/2010 2:04:50 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

We have already turned back time.




OK then, my advice: Onward McDuff! Regardless of the fact that he now knows you're coming, you have big material and positional superiority.

You could also look at this angle. You said you felt getting ashore against those defenses with 99% was unrealistic, and I agree with that in spite of your masterful preparations. So, any additional (above the 1%) casualties that he can cause by virtue of knowing that you are coming will help to even out this particular short-coming of the game engine.

As JWE pointed out, you land on Oahu. Maybe you smash Oahu. The real challenge still lies ahead anyway.

Give 'em hell!


(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 370
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 2:04:52 AM   
Mynok


Posts: 12108
Joined: 11/30/2002
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford


quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I have read the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread closely and skimmed the rest...so sorry if this has been done and commented upon already; but I loaded up the first turn of scen 1 as IJN and, using the forces destined for Kuantan, formed an invasion TF similar to this PH invasion in composition. I then set Bataan as the destination. Bataan, of course, has some serious CD defenses. I saw similar results in that the escorts (PBs, SCs and some DDs...9 or 10 total) soaked up almost all of the fire. Only one xAKL was hit out of approx 60 transports. Did the same with scen 2 and saw the same thing. In each case troops got ashore easily and captured Bataan with the first shock attack.

Definitely apparent to me that the firing routines for CD guns are to target the escorts. Six PBs took multiple heavy caliber hits but remained afloat with 95-99 flt damage.


That tells me it's not someone's clever invasion preparation, it's a failing subroutine involving the coast defenses when confronted with large invasion forces. Has anyone tried testing this with Allied forces against a Japanese fortified base yet?


Sounds like a good idea. One thing I know, the devs have never stopped encouraging testing! This has been a truly interesting thread. Hopefully it will result in positive changes.


< Message edited by Mynok -- 1/10/2010 2:05:12 AM >


_____________________________

"Measure civilization by the ability of citizens to mock government with impunity" -- Unknown

(in reply to John Lansford)
Post #: 371
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 7:07:53 AM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl


quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I checked the TOE in the game and Oahu has only four 16-in guns if I read it right. Also some 14-inchers and railroad 8-inchers, and a pantload of 155s. From discusisons this week it seems as if the game's 16-inch TOE might be light. What was their rate of fire? If they were installed post-WWI, did they have SOTA loading gear? And how many rounds do you get out of a WWI-era barrel? (Not in the game of course.) You left out a boatload of 12-inchers, and a dozen 9.2-inchers..., whereas in your Wotje example the largest defending guns are 5.9", with some 4.7" backup.


I wasn't trying to give a complete Oahu inventory. More commenting that the 16-in quantity in game is less than we had been discussing, when including the Ft. Weaver guns plus the Barber's Point guns and any others.

The Wotje guys were enough to sink 2 DDs, and cripple two cruisers and give a BB 15 sys damage. Not to mention what they did to the merchants. Part of this whole experience for me was due to me always having heard about Tarawa and Kwajalein in this campaign, and nothing really about the rest of the islands. Those two invasions were pretty easy CD-wise. So I was stunned at what a fortress Wotje was, and I kept feeding in resources thinking "This can't go on like this." But, it did. I didn't really beat the CD. When I peeked into the Japanese side, really more interested in seeing what the devs had put there than in maintaining any sort of game integrity, I found them with 44 supply remaining. That's when I ordered the final shock attacks that took out the base. If they'd have been well-supplied, I think I'd have needed many more BBs and a month of LBA softening up. It was a stunning surprice. Which, as I said somewhere, is one of my tests for an interesting AE game. It was a horrible, interesting surprise.

The problem with "speed and manueverability" is that to deliver accurate fire from a ship, speed and manuever have to be curtailed considerably, while to unload the transports they have to stop.


I was more speaking to the difficulty of CD in hitting maneuvering ships. No matter how well they're bore-sighted there's a time lag between shooting and inpact. A 20-knot DD is pretty agile.



(in reply to Mike Scholl)
Post #: 372
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 8:52:03 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline


quote:



I'm not sure that Japan historically had the lift capacity to invade PI, Java and Hawaii at the same time. 3 divisions and 9 regiments, plus supporting troops to Hawaii???? I could see that if he decided to not invade PI.

I thought I read in this thread that PI were already taken, and the invasion of Java was underway. Seems like an awful lot of amphibious operations in less than 2 months.



There was a post on the net which calculated they could do it calculated fuel ships , stowage and everything.


_____________________________

Underdog Fanboy

(in reply to Bradley7735)
Post #: 373
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 8:58:14 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
Agree there is some issue with CD guns they seem to mainly cause disruption now this is great where your forced to do a shock but when your not they can just dump the supply and rest ( or should we shock counterattack.. risky) , also the gunnery selection of small ships is still an issues ( Nells torpedoing small boats)  and 15" guns targetting PBs which would be left to the smaller guns.  Note some of the large guns could cover a lot of the island on 360 degree mounts

_____________________________

Underdog Fanboy

(in reply to Bluebook)
Post #: 374
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 8:58:56 AM   
WITPPL


Posts: 290
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Grunt

I have read the first 4 or 5 pages of this thread closely and skimmed the rest...so sorry if this has been done and commented upon already; but I loaded up the first turn of scen 1 as IJN and, using the forces destined for Kuantan, formed an invasion TF similar to this PH invasion in composition. I then set Bataan as the destination. Bataan, of course, has some serious CD defenses. I saw similar results in that the escorts (PBs, SCs and some DDs...9 or 10 total) soaked up almost all of the fire. Only one xAKL was hit out of approx 60 transports. Did the same with scen 2 and saw the same thing. In each case troops got ashore easily and captured Bataan with the first shock attack.
Definitely apparent to me that the firing routines for CD guns are to target the escorts. Six PBs took multiple heavy caliber hits but remained afloat with 95-99 flt damage.


(in reply to Grunt)
Post #: 375
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 9:42:00 AM   
Oddball_France

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Strasbourg, France, Europe
Status: offline
Reading the thread, i just souht a funny thing : let's get rid of all the Malaya campaign and invade Singapore on day 1.
I did that on head to head, half an hour time, "just to see".

I basically send the whole fleet which was due to leave Samah, joined together in a mega fleet (100 ship, whith max escorts, and so on).

I sent the BBs (I sent them just next to Singapore hexe) as well and as it was a try, and the KB, to try to catch the Z force (maybe not necessary).

Results ? Singapore taken on the 8th of december 41
Not much a real opponent could have done more, i think. not enough time to do anything, basically
Losses ? not much, 5 DMS, 1 DD, 2 APD, 2 PB, and 3 AK... A lot of damaged ones but they are now disbanded in Singapore's harbor

Was I lucky ? maybe.

On day one, the KB fought the Z Force, on day tw, i sent every plane on ground attack, to Singapore


Some details :

Day Time Surface Combat, near Mersing at 52,82, Range 21,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
     BB Kongo, Shell hits 1
     BB Haruna, Shell hits 3
     CA Takao
     CA Atago
     CL Jintsu, Shell hits 1
     DD Asashio
     DD Oshio, Shell hits 2,  heavy fires
     DD Michishio, Shell hits 2,  heavy fires
     DD Arashio
     DD Akatsuki
     DD Hibiki

Allied Ships
     BB Prince of Wales, Shell hits 4,  on fire
     BC Repulse, Shell hits 13,  on fire
     DD Vampire, Shell hits 7,  heavy fires
     DD Tenedos, Shell hits 1,  on fire
     DD Electra, Shell hits 2, Torpedo hits 1, and is sunk
     DD Express, Shell hits 4,  on fire

Maximum visibility in Clear Conditions: 30,000 yards
CONTACT: Japanese lookouts spot Allied task force at 21,000 yards
Japanese open fire on surprised Allied ships at 21,000 yards
BB Haruna fires at BB Prince of Wales at 21,000 yards
BB Kongo fires at BC Repulse at 21,000 yards
CA Atago launches Long Lance Torpedoes at BC Repulse at 21,000 yards
CA Takao launches Long Lance Torpedoes at DD Electra at 21,000 yards
CL Jintsu launches Long Lance Torpedoes at BB Prince of Wales at 21,000 yards
DD Hibiki launches Long Lance Torpedoes at BC Repulse at 21,000 yards
DD Akatsuki launches Long Lance Torpedoes at DD Electra at 21,000 yards
DD Oshio launches Long Lance Torpedoes at BC Repulse at 21,000 yards
Range closes to 16,000 yards

...


Day Time Surface Combat, near Singapore at 50,84, Range 21,000 Yards

Japanese Ships
     CA Chokai, Shell hits 4
     CL Sendai
     DD Shinonome
     DD Usugumo
     DD Shirakumo
     DD Isonami
     DD Hatsuyuki
     DD Murakumo
     DD Shikinami
     DD Ayanami
     DD Asagiri
     DD Sagiri
     DD Yugiri
     APD Fuji
     APD Hagi
     TB Hiyodori
     TB Hayabusa
     DMS W-1
     DMS W-2, Shell hits 1
     DMS W-3
     DMS W-5
     DMS W-6
     PB Chosa Maru
     PB Heiei Maru #7
     PB Tatsumiya Maru
     CM Hatsutaka
     AK Hirokawa Maru
     AV Kamikawa Maru
     AK Sado Maru
     AK Sagami Maru
     AK Sakura Maru
     AK Sasako Maru
     AK Kinka Maru
     AK Kyushu Maru
     AK Tosan Maru
     xAK Arima Maru
     xAK Ayatosan Maru
     xAK Kansai Maru
     xAK Kashii Maru
     xAK Nankai Maru
     AV Sanyo Maru
     xAK Aobasan Maru
     xAK Asosan Maru
     xAK Asakasan Maru
     xAK Atutasan Maru
     xAK Kinugawa Maru
     xAK Kenyo Maru
     xAK Kogyo Maru
     xAK Tatutaki Maru
     xAK Teiyo Maru
     xAK Tatumiya Maru
     xAK Nako Maru
     xAK Naruto Maru
     xAK Noto Maru
     xAK Nissyu Maru
     xAK Mogamigawa Maru
     xAK Koryu Maru
     xAK Syoka Maru
     xAK Kokai Maru
     xAKL Meiko Maru, Shell hits 1,  heavy damage

Allied Ships
     CL Danae, Shell hits 9,  heavy fires,  heavy damage

Japanese ground losses:
     11 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



TF 91 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84) - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

19 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
     DMS W-6, Shell hits 5,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     DMS W-5, Shell hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DMS W-3, Shell hits 7,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     DMS W-2, Shell hits 2,  heavy fires,  heavy damage
     DMS W-1, Shell hits 2,  on fire,  heavy damage
     CL Sendai, Mine hits 1
     DD Yugiri, Mine hits 1
     DD Sagiri, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Asagiri, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     DD Ayanami, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Shikinami, Mine hits 1
     DD Murakumo, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Hatsuyuki, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     DD Isonami, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Shirakumo, Mine hits 1
     DD Usugumo, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     DD Shinonome, Mine hits 1
     TB Hayabusa, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     TB Hiyodori, Mine hits 1,  on fire,  heavy damage
     PB Tatsumiya Maru, Mine hits 1
     PB Heiei Maru #7, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     PB Chosa Maru, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     CM Hatsutaka, Mine hits 1
     AV Sanyo Maru, Mine hits 1
     AV Kamikawa Maru, Mine hits 1
     APD Hagi, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     APD Fuji, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     LSD Shinshu Maru, Mine hits 1
     AK Tosan Maru, Mine hits 1,  on fire
     AK Kyushu Maru, Mine hits 1,  heavy damage
     AK Kinka Maru, Mine hits 1,  on fire

Japanese ground losses:
     82 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
        Non Combat: 3 destroyed, 5 disabled
        Engineers: 1 destroyed, 0 disabled
     Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)



Singapore Fortress firing at DMS W-6
Singapore Fortress firing at DMS W-5
Singapore Fortress firing at DMS W-3
Singapore Fortress firing at DMS W-2
Singapore Fortress firing at DMS W-1
19 mines cleared


PoW and Repulse TF sunk by air raids (no details needed i think)


TF 91 encounters mine field at Singapore (50,84)

Japanese Ships
     DD Yugiri
     DD Ayanami,  heavy damage
     DD Hatsuyuki,  heavy damage
     DD Shirakumo
     TB Hayabusa,  heavy damage
     CA Chokai, Mine hits 1



6 mines cleared



Pre-Invasion action off Singapore

52 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
     CA Chokai
     DD Yugiri
     xAKL Meiko Maru,  heavy damage
     xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21, Shell hits 1,  heavy fires
     CL Sendai

Japanese ground losses:
     112 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 5 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled


Allied ground losses:
     6 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
     Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


CA Chokai firing at 3rd Cavalry Regiment
DD Yugiri firing at 3rd Cavalry Regiment
6" Mk V/VII Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Meiko Maru at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
15" CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21 at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft



Amphibious Assault at Singapore

TF 91 troops unloading over beach at Singapore, 50,84

Japanese ground losses:
     735 casualties reported
        Squads: 29 destroyed, 0 disabled
        Non Combat: 27 destroyed, 0 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
     Guns lost 2 (2 destroyed, 0 disabled)
     Vehicles lost 4 (4 destroyed, 0 disabled)



19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 56th Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 42nd Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 42nd Infantry Rgt /2
17 troops of a IJA Motorized Squad accidentally lost during unload of 5th Recon Rgt /1
17 troops of a IJA Motorized Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 5th Recon Rgt /1
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 21st Infantry Rgt
17 troops of a SNLF Squad accidentally lost during unload of 16th Nav Gd
17 troops of a SNLF Squad lost in surf during unload of 16th Nav Gd
10 Support troops lost from landing craft during unload of 4th Ind. Engr Rgt
8 Aviation Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 18th JAAF Base Force /2
10 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 54th Const Co /3
18 troops of a IJA Engineer Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 12th Engr Rgt
18 troops of a IJA Engineer Squad lost in surf during unload of 5th Engr Rgt
17 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 84th JAAF AF Bn
10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of 84th JAAF AF Bn
Type 97 Medium Tank lost from landing craft during unload of 1st Tank Rgt
17 troops of a SNLF Squad lost overboard during unload of 15th Nav Gd /3
Motorized Support lost overboard during unload of 25th Army
18 troops of a IJA Engineer Squad lost in surf during unload of 15th Ind. Engr Rgt
18 troops of a IJA Engineer Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 15th Ind. Engr Rgt
10 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 8th JNAF Coy /2
8 Naval Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 11th Shipping Engr Rgt
15cm T04 Howitzer lost in surf during unload of 3rd Ind. Mtn Gun Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt
18 troops of a IJA Engineer Squad accidentally lost during unload of 23rd Ind. Engr Rgt
10 Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 23rd Ind. Engr Rgt
8 Engineers lost overboard during unload of 23rd Ind. Engr Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 55th Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 55th Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad accidentally lost during unload of 55th Infantry Rgt /2
10 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 55th Infantry Rgt /2
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 55th Infantry Rgt /2
10 Support troops lost from landing craft during unload of 55th Infantry Rgt /2
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt
20 troops of a IJA HMG Squad lost in surf during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost in surf during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt
37mm Type 94 AT Gun lost from landing craft during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt /2
10 Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt /2
10 Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt /2
20 troops of a IJA HMG Squad accidentally lost during unload of 41st Infantry Rgt
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 41st Infantry Rgt
10 Support troops lost from landing craft during unload of 5th FA Rgt /2
10 Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt /3
10 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 11th Infantry Rgt /3
10 Support troops lost from landing craft during unload of 41st Infantry Rgt /2
10 Support troops lost in surf during unload of 12th Engr Rgt /2
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt /2
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost overboard during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt /2
19 troops of a IJA Infantry Squad lost from landing craft during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt /2
10 Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 114th Infantry Rgt /2
17 troops of a SNLF Squad accidentally lost during unload of 16th Nav Gd /1
10 Support troops lost overboard during unload of 21st Infantry Rgt /3
Motorized Support dropped into water during unload of 3rd Medium FA Rgt
8 Engineers lost overboard during unload of 8th JNAF Coy
Motorized Support damaged beyond repair during unload of 18th JAAF Base Force
8 Aviation Support troops accidentally lost during unload of 18th JAAF Base Force



Ground combat at Singapore (50,84)

Allied Bombardment attack

Attacking force 6639 troops, 151 guns, 18 vehicles, Assault Value = 230

Defending force 39270 troops, 405 guns, 314 vehicles, Assault Value = 1185

Japanese ground losses:
     58 casualties reported
        Squads: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
        Engineers: 1 destroyed, 2 disabled


Allied ground losses:
     150 casualties reported
        Squads: 2 destroyed, 13 disabled
        Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 7 disabled
        Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
     Vehicles lost 2 (0 destroyed, 2 disabled)


Assaulting units:
   2nd Malay Battalion
   1st Malay Battalion
   1st Manchester Battalion
   3rd Cavalry Regiment
   2nd Loyal Battalion
   2/17 Dogra Battalion
   SSVF Brigade
   2nd Gordons Battalion
   Singapore Fortress
   2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
   Singapore Base Force
   24th NZ Pioneer Coy
   Malaya Army
   224 Group RAF
   Malayan Air Wing
   1st Indian Heavy AA Regiment
   22nd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment

Defending units:
   56th Infantry Rgt /1
   5th Engr Rgt /1
   12th Engr Rgt /1
   15th Ind. Engr Rgt /1
   21st Infantry Rgt /1
   42nd Infantry Rgt /1
   23rd Ind. Engr Rgt /1
   16th Nav Gd /4
   15th Nav Gd /1
   55th Infantry Rgt /1
   5th Recon Rgt /2
   11th Infantry Rgt /1
   41st Infantry Rgt /1
   114th Infantry Rgt /1
   1st Tank Rgt /1
   4th Ind. Engr Rgt /1
   6th JNAF Coy /1
   54th Const Co /1
   5th JAAF AF Coy /1
   25th Army /2
   20th AA Rgt /1
   84th JAAF AF Bn /1
   34th Fld AA Bn /1
   5th Field AF Const Bn /1
   18th Medium FA Rgt /1
   18th JAAF Base Force /1
   3rd Ind. Mtn Gun Rgt /1
   3rd Medium FA Rgt /1
   21st JAAF AF Bn /1
   11th Shipping Engr Rgt /1
   53rd Const Co /1
   8th JNAF Coy /3
   55th Const Co /1
   5th FA Rgt /1



That was day one

(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 376
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 9:42:14 AM   
Oddball_France

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Strasbourg, France, Europe
Status: offline
reserved for day 2


AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Dec 08, 41
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Singapore - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

124 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
CA Chokai, Shell hits 17, heavy fires, heavy damage - not sunk
DD Yugiri
xAKL Meiko Maru, Shell hits 2, on fire, heavy damage
xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Sendai

Japanese ground losses:
73 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 3 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



CA Chokai firing at Singapore Fortress
DD Yugiri firing at 3rd Cavalry Regiment
6" Mk V/VII Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Meiko Maru at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
15" CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21 at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft



Invasion Support action off Singapore

39 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
xAKL Meiko Maru, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chokai, heavy damage
xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
CL Sendai

Japanese ground losses:
39 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 5 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled



6" Mk V/VII Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Meiko Maru at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
15" CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21 at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Singapore
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

16 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chokai, heavy damage
xAKL Meiko Maru, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage



6" Mk V/VII Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Ryoyu Maru #21 at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
15" CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Meiko Maru at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards




--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Singapore , at 50,84

Weather in hex: Overcast

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 30,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A6M2 Zero x 36
B5N2 Kate x 89
D3A1 Val x 96



Allied aircraft
Buffalo I x 12


Japanese aircraft losses
B5N2 Kate: 3 destroyed, 23 damaged
D3A1 Val: 3 destroyed, 37 damaged

Allied aircraft losses
Buffalo I: 4 destroyed


Allied ground losses:
274 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 32 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 9 (0 destroyed, 9 disabled)


Aircraft Attacking:
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
26 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
1 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
25 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
18 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
17 x B5N2 Kate bombing from 9000 feet
Ground Attack: 2 x 250 kg GP Bomb
14 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x A6M2 Zero sweeping at 25000 feet
7 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
9 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
15 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
5 x D3A1 Val releasing from 2000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
3 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 3000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
8 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb
4 x D3A1 Val releasing from 1000'
Ground Attack: 1 x 250 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
No.243 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
No.453 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
No.488 Sqn RAF with Buffalo I (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

Also attacking Malaya Army ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking Malaya Army ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking 2nd Loyal Battalion ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking SSVF Brigade ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking Malayan Air Wing ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking Singapore Base Force ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking 2nd Gordons Battalion ...
Also attacking 224 Group RAF ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking Singapore Base Force ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking Singapore Base Force ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking Singapore Base Force ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking 2/17 Dogra Battalion ...
Also attacking Singapore Fortress ...
Also attacking 22nd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment ...
Also attacking 1st Malay Battalion ...



Invasion Support action off Singapore
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft

23 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
xAKL Yoshinogawa Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
CA Chokai, heavy damage
xAKL Sasago Maru
xAK Ayatosan Maru
xAP Brazil Maru
LSD Shinshu Maru



6" Mk V/VII Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Yoshinogawa Maru at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy troops at 12,000 yards
15" CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Sasago Maru at 12,000 yards
CA Chokai fires to suppress enemy guns at 12,000 yards
xAK Ayatosan Maru firing at enemy guns
xAP Brazil Maru firing at enemy troops
LSD Shinshu Maru firing at enemy troops


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ground combat at Singapore (50,84)

Japanese Shock attack

Attacking force 38575 troops, 369 guns, 234 vehicles, Assault Value = 1262

Defending force 15091 troops, 235 guns, 120 vehicles, Assault Value = 217

Japanese adjusted assault: 599

Allied adjusted defense: 163

Japanese assault odds: 3 to 1 (fort level 0)

Japanese forces CAPTURE Singapore !!!

Allied aircraft
no flights

Allied aircraft losses
No Allied losses

Combat modifiers
Defender: terrain(+), preparation(-), morale(-), experience(-)
Attacker: shock(+)

Japanese ground losses:
953 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 43 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 76 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 17 disabled
Vehicles lost 11 (0 destroyed, 11 disabled)


Allied ground losses:
13976 casualties reported
Squads: 234 destroyed, 47 disabled
Non Combat: 1204 destroyed, 116 disabled
Engineers: 86 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 213 (209 destroyed, 4 disabled)
Vehicles lost 154 (154 destroyed, 0 disabled)
Units retreated 13
Units destroyed 2


Assaulting units:
114th Infantry Rgt /1
4th Ind. Engineer Regiment
42nd Infantry Rgt /1
5th Engineer Regiment
55th Infantry Rgt /1
15th Naval Guard Unit
23rd Ind. Engr Rgt /1
15th Ind. Engineer Regiment
5th Recon Rgt /2
41st Infantry Regiment
12th Engineer Regiment
16th Naval Guard Unit
11th Infantry Regiment
1st Tank Rgt /1
56th Infantry Rgt /1
21st Infantry Rgt /1
5th Field Artillery Regiment
84th JAAF AF Bn
18th Medium Field Artillery Regiment
11th Shipping Engineer Regiment
5th JAAF AF Coy
8th JNAF Coy
53rd Const Co
34th Field AA Battalion
21st JAAF AF Bn
5th Field AF Construction Battalion
20th AA Regiment
54th Const Co
3rd Medium Field Artillery Regiment
18th JAAF Base Force
3rd Ind. Mountain Gun Regiment
6th JNAF Coy
55th Const Co
25th Army /2

Defending units:
2nd Malay Battalion
1st Manchester Battalion
3rd Cavalry Regiment
2nd Gordons Battalion
2/17 Dogra Battalion
SSVF Brigade
1st Malay Battalion
2nd Loyal Battalion
Singapore Fortress
24th NZ Pioneer Coy
224 Group RAF
Singapore Base Force
2nd HK&S Heavy AA Regiment
Malaya Army
Malayan Air Wing
1st Indian Heavy AA Regiment
22nd Indian Mountain Gun Regiment


and that's it

HR needed, i guess

< Message edited by Oddball_France -- 1/10/2010 9:43:46 AM >

(in reply to Oddball_France)
Post #: 377
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 9:48:57 AM   
Oddball_France

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Strasbourg, France, Europe
Status: offline
I forgot to mention :
all the units i checked (the "big" rgts) had something like 0 to 3 disruption and fatigue before i launched the assault, with 0 preparation for Singapore (didn't check but i guess so)

(sorry for spelling mistakes, i'm not a native english and i type too fast)


< Message edited by Oddball_France -- 1/10/2010 9:49:17 AM >

(in reply to Oddball_France)
Post #: 378
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 10:03:17 AM   
WITPPL


Posts: 290
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline
Here we go!

No problem with the game engine. Not at all.

or....

It was perfectly possible in a real world just not tested

< Message edited by WITPPL -- 1/10/2010 10:17:10 AM >

(in reply to Oddball_France)
Post #: 379
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 10:56:26 AM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
I'm not seeing a problem.  Jap commits it's entire national force against Singapore in a surprise attack.  Why doesn't that work?  It's PH only smaller.  

In any case, it is just a trade-off and one that I think is entirely within the realm of options of the JAP player for day 1.  You potentially get the SRA secured about 1 month earlier, BUT you let the USN off the hook entirely.  That means the Allies counter-offensive can start almost one year earlier.  I don't see this as a winning strategy for the JAP player, but I guess we can watch an AAR play out and see how it works.  Be interesting to watch.  I think this is what AE is about, neh?

_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 380
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 11:11:49 AM   
Oddball_France

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Strasbourg, France, Europe
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

I'm not seeing a problem.  Jap commits it's entire national force against Singapore in a surprise attack.  Why doesn't that work?  It's PH only smaller.  

In any case, it is just a trade-off and one that I think is entirely within the realm of options of the JAP player for day 1.  You potentially get the SRA secured about 1 month earlier, BUT you let the USN off the hook entirely.  That means the Allies counter-offensive can start almost one year earlier.  I don't see this as a winning strategy for the JAP player, but I guess we can watch an AAR play out and see how it works.  Be interesting to watch.  I think this is what AE is about, neh?



What if i do the same with the KB at Pearl ? I just tried like that "for fun", as said, but i think it could be done without the KB, with good air cover from Saigon, and so one..
What would you say in that case ? not sure you would like that, playing on allied side :/

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 381
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 11:12:18 AM   
WITPPL


Posts: 290
Joined: 8/5/2009
Status: offline
Pax: We are talking about looses in ships and men during such invasions here.
Not about possibility to take one location or not.

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 382
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/10/2010 11:36:18 AM   
Bluebook

 

Posts: 143
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Question:

Results were funny but the important question for me is:

What the heck should i do now?

Ive lost WEEKS of family life preparing whole operation. Not only it is fully disclosed but I am a sitting duck.
What the hell am I about to do with this damn situation?

Should I compose my TFs by my best and invade again (probably with similiart results)?
Maybe just give up a game or what?

How much loses will look GOOD?

I am really puzzled here!





Actually I have thought about it and I think we should go back to the game as it was and forget the "go back in time"-thing.

I dont mind losing Pearl if that is what happens. It will just be a longer way for me to Tokyo, but the game will be just as fun anyway. So the CD-routines does not really work and that meant a very easy landing at Pearl, I can live with that. I will get enough reinforcements in the future anyway.

And, like you say, what are you supposed to do? You are super-committed to the Pearl invasion with 10 divisions in the centpac. Not your fault that the game cant handle that invasion properly.

Also, it will be interesting to see what happens. So I think we should just continue our game from where we were.

(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 383
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 12:14:43 PM   
PaxMondo


Posts: 9750
Joined: 6/6/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Pax: We are talking about looses in ships and men during such invasions here.
Not about possibility to take one location or not.



Ahhh, sorry. I thought JWilkerson already addressed that above ... sounds like any invasion force of greater than say about 200 ships (maybe 100?. maybe 300? not clear yet) is outside of the game engine design parameters. I've already adjusted my house rules that no "monster" invasion forces after Dec 10. We are still dickering on what constitutes "monster" but taking direction from above.

< Message edited by PaxMondo -- 1/10/2010 12:18:20 PM >


_____________________________

Pax

(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 384
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 12:41:51 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
Oopsie...

_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to Oddball_France)
Post #: 385
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 1:00:46 PM   
herwin

 

Posts: 6059
Joined: 5/28/2004
From: Sunderland, UK
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PaxMondo

quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Pax: We are talking about looses in ships and men during such invasions here.
Not about possibility to take one location or not.



Ahhh, sorry. I thought JWilkerson already addressed that above ... sounds like any invasion force of greater than say about 200 ships (maybe 100?. maybe 300? not clear yet) is outside of the game engine design parameters. I've already adjusted my house rules that no "monster" invasion forces after Dec 10. We are still dickering on what constitutes "monster" but taking direction from above.


I suspect some of the Allied invasions later in the war are larger than the threshold, so this won't work. Take the coastal defence artillery available, multiply it by 4 to get the equivalent ships guns, and see whether the landing force has firepower superiority. If it has FP Sup, it wins the firepower duel, which allows the LF to land reasonably unmolested and you can continue with the current game engine. If it doesn't have FP Sup, take the expected losses due to unsuppressed anti-boat guns during the 3-hour beach approach and have the remnants assault the relatively intact beach defences. If the LF can't overwhelm the beach defences, it dies on the beach. If it does overwhelm the defences, it has a beachhead, but its disruption level should be on the order of 90%. It can't take a base on the turn it lands unless it was unmolested.

< Message edited by herwin -- 1/10/2010 1:02:15 PM >


_____________________________

Harry Erwin
"For a number to make sense in the game, someone has to calibrate it and program code. There are too many significant numbers that behave non-linearly to expect that. It's just a game. Enjoy it." herwin@btinternet.com

(in reply to PaxMondo)
Post #: 386
RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results - 1/10/2010 1:09:47 PM   
Oddball_France

 

Posts: 53
Joined: 6/1/2005
From: Strasbourg, France, Europe
Status: offline
I think that we should roughly go with a simple rule as a basis, concerning disruption at landing. (don't know about fatigue ? half the disrupt ?)

before any more disruption caused by defensers, units should have something like (50-(preparation/2)) disruption added.

So if a unit isn't prepared at all (0), her disruption goes up by 50.
If it's 50% prepared, it's disrpution ups by 25, and
if it's fully prepared, it stays as it was before landing.

Then only it suffers (or not) more disruption cause of defensers. That one is harder to calculate, i admit

for sure, the values are quite raw and just examples. but that's how i see the thing.
it still won't be perfect but it's a starting point.

< Message edited by Oddball_France -- 1/10/2010 1:10:42 PM >

(in reply to herwin)
Post #: 387
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/10/2010 1:16:00 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

Question:

Results were funny but the important question for me is:

What the heck should i do now?

Ive lost WEEKS of family life preparing whole operation. Not only it is fully disclosed but I am a sitting duck.
What the hell am I about to do with this damn situation?

Should I compose my TFs by my best and invade again (probably with similiart results)?
Maybe just give up a game or what?

How much loses will look GOOD?

I am really puzzled here!





People are starting to post results similar to yours which seem to come from putting bunch of cheap and rather unsinkable (for 12 hours, anyway) escorts in the invading fleet... a quick fix would seem to repeat the invasion after removing the small escorts.

(in reply to Bluebook)
Post #: 388
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/10/2010 1:22:36 PM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: WITPPL

We have already turned back time.




Personally, I wish you'd go to your sent mail and proceed from a few days post invasion. Sounds like you have provided the devs something to look at already in regards to the CD routine, but it would be interesting now to see if a) can you actually take PH and b) if you do, what impact does it have in later years. We may find that while game has certain issues that allow it, the benefits do not outway the issues caused in later game.

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 1/10/2010 1:25:44 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to WITPPL)
Post #: 389
RE: 16 INCH GUNS - 1/10/2010 1:25:40 PM   
MorningDew

 

Posts: 1170
Joined: 9/20/2006
From: Greenville, SC
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Bluebook

Actually I have thought about it and I think we should go back to the game as it was and forget the "go back in time"-thing.

I dont mind losing Pearl if that is what happens. It will just be a longer way for me to Tokyo, but the game will be just as fun anyway. So the CD-routines does not really work and that meant a very easy landing at Pearl, I can live with that. I will get enough reinforcements in the future anyway.

And, like you say, what are you supposed to do? You are super-committed to the Pearl invasion with 10 divisions in the centpac. Not your fault that the game cant handle that invasion properly.

Also, it will be interesting to see what happens. So I think we should just continue our game from where we were.


LOL...I wish I had read this before I posted:) I'm always a few posts behind

< Message edited by AndrewKurtz -- 1/10/2010 1:26:04 PM >


_____________________________


(in reply to Bluebook)
Post #: 390
Page:   <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>
All Forums >> [New Releases from Matrix Games] >> War in the Pacific: Admiral's Edition >> RE: Amphibious invasion of Pearl Harbor - results Page: <<   < prev  11 12 [13] 14 15   next >   >>
Jump to:





New Messages No New Messages
Hot Topic w/ New Messages Hot Topic w/o New Messages
Locked w/ New Messages Locked w/o New Messages
 Post New Thread
 Reply to Message
 Post New Poll
 Submit Vote
 Delete My Own Post
 Delete My Own Thread
 Rate Posts


Forum Software © ASPPlayground.NET Advanced Edition 2.4.5 ANSI

1.047