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Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 7:45:48 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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And every year again, Bugs Bunny meets up with Santa Clause to bring some eggs for Easter... the more time I spend with AE the more often I think I could have saved my money and could just start another WITP campaign.

Morning Air attack on 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade, at 48,91 (Palembang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 11,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 9
A6M2 Zero x 21

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 35

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 18 destroyed, 6 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
51 casualties reported
Squads: 1 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 6 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb
1 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb
6 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb
4 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (9 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
9 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Shoho-1 with A5M4 Claude (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(9 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 6 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 16 minutes
Zuiho-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(7 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 3 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 15 minutes
Hosho-1 with A6M2 Zero (5 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(5 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
5 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Raid is overhead

Also attacking 12th JAAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 12th JAAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...
Also attacking 12th JAAF Base Force ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade, at 48,91 (Palembang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid detected at 40 NM, estimated altitude 9,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 15 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 4
A6M2 Zero x 16

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 24

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 11 destroyed, 4 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
18 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 4 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 1 (0 destroyed, 1 disabled)
Vehicles lost 3 (0 destroyed, 3 disabled)

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb
3 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Zuiho-1 with A6M2 Zero (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(2 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 25 minutes
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (6 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
(8 plane(s) diverted to support CAP in hex.)
6 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 5 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes
Shoho-1 with A5M4 Claude (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Hosho-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
0 plane(s) not yet engaged, 0 being recalled, 1 out of immediate contact.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Time for all group planes to reach interception is 19 minutes

Also attacking 12th JAAF Base Force ...
Also attacking 21st Ind.Mixed Brigade ...

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on Sasebo 3rd SNLF, at 48,91 (Palembang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 26 NM, estimated altitude 8,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 9 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 3
A6M2 Zero x 6

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 17

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 2 destroyed, 9 damaged

Aircraft Attacking:
6 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb
8 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Shoho-1 with A5M4 Claude (3 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
3 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Hosho-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Raid is overhead
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (4 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
4 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Zuiho-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 6000
Raid is overhead

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Morning Air attack on 12th JAAF Base Force, at 48,91 (Palembang)

Weather in hex: Heavy cloud

Raid spotted at 35 NM, estimated altitude 6,000 feet.
Estimated time to target is 13 minutes

Japanese aircraft
A5M4 Claude x 2
A6M2 Zero x 2

Allied aircraft
139WH-3 x 9

No Japanese losses

Allied aircraft losses
139WH-3: 1 destroyed, 2 damaged

Japanese ground losses:
8 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 0 destroyed, 2 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled

Aircraft Attacking:
8 x 139WH-3 bombing from 6000 feet
Ground Attack: 3 x 300 kg GP Bomb

CAP engaged:
Shoho-1 with A5M4 Claude (2 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
2 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead
Hosho-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 13000
Raid is overhead
Ryujo-1 with A6M2 Zero (1 airborne, 0 on standby, 0 scrambling)
1 plane(s) intercepting now.
Group patrol altitude is 10000
Raid is overhead

ahh, who cares, kill rate is as least as good as in WITP but the replacement rates have been decreased by a factor of 10. But don�t forget, if you start as the Japanese, you will still be able to build hundreds of superb aircraft, starting in mid 42 until at least 6/45.

50 out of 89 bombers shot down, don�t have the confirmation yet but it seems this was LEAKING Cap from mini KB out to THREE hexes... someone give me some alcohol because pills don�t help when playing this game.

The fact that I�m losing 30 Catalinas a month to ops and only get 17 back doesn�t make the game any better either. This from flying limited nav search...

Edit: and just to point out: NO, this is no Knavey, it�s just something that happened last turn.

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< Message edited by castor troy -- 1/13/2010 7:50:35 PM >

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:16:55 PM

TulliusDetritus

Posts: 5521
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35 [American] Catalinas?

7 PBY4s
8 PBY5s

15 here (search: 12 hexes, 50% search + 30% train = 80% of the guys are earning their daily lentils, hehehe)

EDITED: anyway, 5 feb = 2 months of game. Total losses (28 + 7) / 2 = 17,5 per month (more or less my losses). Am I missing something? I mean, you said 30 per month

< Message edited by TulliusDetritus -- 1/13/2010 8:24:10 PM >

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:24:23 PM

sven6345789

Posts: 1050
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From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline

actually, if you use your fighters as bombers, approaching at 6000 feet, giving the japanese both the maneuver advantage and the height-advantage, what do you expect?
i mean really

< Message edited by sven6345789 -- 1/13/2010 8:25:31 PM >

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Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:27:16 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TulliusDetritus

35 [American] Catalinas?

7 PBY4s
8 PBY5s

15 here (search: 12 hexes, 50% search + 30% train = 80% of the guys are earning their daily lentils, hehehe)

EDITED: anyway, 5 feb = 2 months of game. Total losses (28 + 7) / 2 = 17,5 per month (more or less my losses). Am I missing something? I mean, you said 30 per month

PB4s have been lost also. 30 per month was overrated, but more than I get as replacements. Those are only the op losses and replacements can�t keep up with them.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:27:37 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

actually, if you use your fighters as bombers, approaching at 6000 feet, giving the japanese both the maneuver advantage and the height-advantage, what do you expect?
i mean really

you�re not serious that those were fighters?

or do you think those Dutch "fighters" would drop 3x300kg bombs?

< Message edited by castor troy -- 1/13/2010 8:28:28 PM >

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:30:05 PM

bradfordkay

Posts: 8683
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From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

actually, if you use your fighters as bombers, approaching at 6000 feet, giving the japanese both the maneuver advantage and the height-advantage, what do you expect?
i mean really

sven... while I do not agree with Castor's thesis, those are Martin bombers (in the USAAC they were known as B-10s), not fighters.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:32:55 PM

sven6345789

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline

right, got them mixed up with the AVG
but, these bombers are from the 1930s. You know how Luftwaffe bombers performed unescorted, or generally unescorted bombers. So the point i am trying to make becomes more clear. It shows the air model is working. Sending bombers in unescorted is a bad mistake. Has been in real life, has always been.
And some of them still got through and pressed home the attack.Tht is what i call brave.

< Message edited by sven6345789 -- 1/13/2010 9:02:13 PM >

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Bougainville, November 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9. It rained today.

Letter from a U.S. Marine,November 1943

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:36:14 PM

tazaaron

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Joined: 1/12/2010
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Ive never had any luck with the Dutch 139WH-3 either, they get shot down in droves anywhere they go and they did get jumped from above and got what they deserved. Not a very good plane and shouldnt be used anywhere around fighters unless the fighters have 2 tiers of wings on them. Dont know if you can blame the cap on this one, i would blame the plane and getting jumped from above.

Aaron

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:41:09 PM

Nemo121

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Hmm, it seems to me that we shouldn't be at all surprised that cannon-armed defending fighters would be able to shoot down slow, under-armed bombers in relatively high numbers.

You may have been unlucky in those raids but I think that vs cannon-armed defender you must expect the 139WH3 to die in droves and that doesn't seem too unreasonable to me.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:43:02 PM

aprezto

Posts: 824
Joined: 1/29/2009
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Umm, I am seeing half your bombers making it to the target and bombing, despite having no fighter escorts and being opposed by naval piloted zeros. In WitP Vanilla none of your bombers would have made it, any remnants bugging out and going home.

I think this is a great indicator of how CAP is not uber and how bombing missions can still get through. And how doing so is a very bad idea if you want to continue a bombing campaign, as bombers without escort DO get chewed up, if not completely destroyed as in Vanilla.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:46:00 PM

castor troy

Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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50 out of 89? 30 perhaps but not 50. Or is someone trying to explain me that two dozen Zeroes all shot down 2 bombers? Well, they did here, but 50 is a number that you guys seem to know from WITP. But mixing WITP with reality is odd.

Guys, 50 bombers. But hey, of course those bombers could be that slow that the Zeroes were flying back to their carriers, landed, rearmed and took them on once more. The carriers are 120 miles away and the fighters get vectored in by radar. This is mini KB and radar vectors the fighters in. All really reasonable and fine. Good thing about it is that everything that I�ve learned on this forum the last couple of years was complete BS. Wow, you all lulled me into something the last couple of years.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 8:48:20 PM

castor troy

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: aprezto

Umm, I am seeing half your bombers making it to the target and bombing, despite having no fighter escorts and being opposed by naval piloted zeros. In WitP Vanilla none of your bombers would have made it, any remnants bugging out and going home.

I think this is a great indicator of how CAP is not uber and how bombing missions can still get through. And how doing so is a very bad idea if you want to continue a bombing campaign, as bombers without escort DO get chewed up, if not completely destroyed as in Vanilla.

anyone open eyes please? You tell me I should be glad that bombers got through? Heck, there were 2 dozen Zeroes, do you think that one out of 89 bombers would have made it through if there were 40 Zeroes then?

What a pity no PBEM is far enough to field a 200 Hellcat Cap and a poor strike of 100 Betties gets chopped to pieces, hence resulting in only a .5 kill rate of every fighter while these achieved a 2:0

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:02:17 PM

aprezto

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I don't see 89 bombers arriving in one flight, I see 3 or so flights of bombers. IMO the fighters get time to regroup to fall on the next incoming raid. In each raid you appear to lose about half the unescorted bomber force - I find that acceptable. I do agree with you that since this is a stand off force that maybe the fighters should fall more rapidly in number as they retire to re-arm. And I certainly agree with you that 2 fighters doing the bulk of the killing is off the mark - but then you've only just supplied that info.
IMO (again) I would be a little miffed if I had managed to put CAP above a target that didn't then take a largish chunk of an incoming group of unescorted raids.
I do take your point about the 200 hellcats. I would imagine an unescorted, multiple of 100 betties would get creamed. But then I'd expect that. Potentially we have a difference of that opinion.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:06:23 PM

sven6345789

Posts: 1050
Joined: 3/8/2004
From: Sandviken, Sweden
Status: offline

actually i count
30 fighters vs. 35 bombers
20 fighters vs. 24 bombers
9 fighters vs. 17 bombers and
4 fighters vs. 9 bombers

looks a little different than 24 vs. 89

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:07:18 PM

Panther Bait

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Sorry, CT, but I have to agree with the others. This might have been an example of a really good result for the IJN, but it's not completely incomprehensible. 30 fighters shooting down 50 bombers isn't impossible, especially when the bombers are obsolete and unescorted.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:14:25 PM

khyberbill

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From: new milford, ct
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Dont expect much from the early Dutch. I generally end up withdrawing the fighters and bombers and save on the points and deny the Japanese the combat experience. You can cut down drastically on your ops losses with the Catalinas by reducing their range by 25% and flying no more than 50% of the squad per turn. Ops losses drop considerably, I see less than 1 a month now. As for going back to WITP, I can't until they bring sub patrol zones, way points etc.

If you dont train up your Allied pilots, they will also have a tough time engaging the Japanese.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:17:56 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

actually i count
30 fighters vs. 35 bombers
20 fighters vs. 24 bombers
9 fighters vs. 17 bombers and
4 fighters vs. 9 bombers

looks a little different than 24 vs. 89

you are talking about fighters I am talking about Zeroes, of which not 24 were there but 21. Didn�t know the 75mm cannon armed Claudes are now bomber eating beasts too.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:19:37 PM

aprezto

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Did the claudes do a large amount of the damage?

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:24:33 PM

castor troy

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people, I�m not saying there shouldn�t be a slaughter. All the books you�ve read, what were slaughters? How were the loss rates? A slaughter in this case would be 30 bombers lost, a slaughter for the Dutch that they probably couldn�t believe.

How many incidents can you bring up with all the thousands of examples you�ve all together read in all your books that saw two dozen fighters take down 50 bombers? No matter what bombers, no matter what fighters. How many?

Perhaps I�ve just broke the record for the war in the Pacific and perhaps it never happens again. Ok, but where�s the difference to WITP? Where�s the difference to WITP when sweeping land based Zeroes take out P-40s on Cap at a 6 or 7:1 rate? I can�t see it other than the fact that in WITP there are three times higher replacements.

I love both WITP and AE but the common feeling at the moment from playing and reading a lot of AARs (that actually show the combat reports) is not really convincing me about a lot of things said that now turn out not to be what it was "expected". Even with WITP Nikmod I can make it less bloody. This is just one instance, there are many other things going on (as you can see on the forum). I�m not complaining about the EUR 50, nor about what I paid for WITP. Spending these amounts of money are peanuts, it�s more about the blood and sweat you put into your ongoing games and AARs and the expectations you have (due to what you�ve been told) that then seem to turn out being only exploding bubbles at times.

Meeting those fighters over Palembang was a good move of my opponent and you can only applaud it. But the Dutch losing 70% of their total bombers in one strike... and we�re not talking about ongoing fights during the day, this was one base launching 89 bombers to attack a troop stack in the same hex sitting at the front fighting Dutch units at Palembang. Two dozen of fighters against three times as many bombers, just too many losses IMO and something that perhaps never happened in real life, no matter what fighter met what bomber. And if it happened, how often? Even if you are a slow bomber, if the one that is attacked bails out to the West and you�re going East you gain a lot of ground, and if ther are three bombers for every fighter, you have a lot of choices. Waiting to get shot down surely wouldn�t be a choice, no matter what crap you fly

< Message edited by castor troy -- 1/13/2010 9:29:58 PM >

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 9:57:11 PM

frank1970

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Castor, I see 45 Zeros in your reports. Can you verify they were all the same or is it possible, that MiniKB could have managed these numbers by permanently replacing them??

http://books.google.de/books?id=IzJUlCpm4zMC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=aeral+kills+Barbarossa&source=bl&ots=gy86mLskU0&sig=0d4lliSHG6qBhh2K0wfHpkRRF2k&hl=de&ei=Dj5OS5ODKNiqsQb5z831AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

As for destroying lots of enemy aircraft with little losses on one day in little missions, just follow the link above.
Unprepared Soviet pilots and planes were lost in masses to German fighters in the beginning days of barbarossa.

Don�t forget the extremely heavy losses of the Brits when attacking the panzerships on monday, 18th december 1939. And that were quite stable Wellingtons getting the stick, loosing more than 60% of their number. 44 attacking bombers, 34 shot down (offical German numbers)Brits say 15 lost of 22.
This is quite in the range of the losses your forces suffered.
So, it isn�t that unrealistic loosing heavily when using unescorted bombers.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 10:26:16 PM

oldman45

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Lets put things into perspective, looking at some of the specs for the plane, it had 3 rifle caliber mg's, I couldn't find anywhere that stated it had self sealing fuel tanks. Those planes were jumped by very experienced pilots, and everything was in their favor. The results "feel" right. I doubt that there are any historical events in the Pacific that can be used as an example to compare it with.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/13/2010 11:44:36 PM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Frank

Castor, I see 45 Zeros in your reports. Can you verify they were all the same or is it possible, that MiniKB could have managed these numbers by permanently replacing them??

http://books.google.de/books?id=IzJUlCpm4zMC&pg=PA15&lpg=PA15&dq=aeral+kills+Barbarossa&source=bl&ots=gy86mLskU0&sig=0d4lliSHG6qBhh2K0wfHpkRRF2k&hl=de&ei=Dj5OS5ODKNiqsQb5z831AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAkQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=&f=false

As for destroying lots of enemy aircraft with little losses on one day in little missions, just follow the link above.
Unprepared Soviet pilots and planes were lost in masses to German fighters in the beginning days of barbarossa.

Don�t forget the extremely heavy losses of the Brits when attacking the panzerships on monday, 18th december 1939. And that were quite stable Wellingtons getting the stick, loosing more than 60% of their number. 44 attacking bombers, 34 shot down (offical German numbers)Brits say 15 lost of 22.
This is quite in the range of the losses your forces suffered.
So, it isn�t that unrealistic loosing heavily when using unescorted bombers.

In this example, how many German fighters were involved? Only 25% of the number of attacking bombers?

It�s not a question to me of the total number of losses, it�s the question about how many ac involved on each side and how many bombers then were shot down.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 12:05:58 AM

chesmart

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UberCap is gone I learnt it the hard way when I tried to raid japan with carriers. 200 F-6f and 100 F-4UD did not help a cv tf against strikes from Osaka, I was lucky that the AA got what leaked through. 5 essex class carriers in for repairs between 100-300 days plus 2 BBs heavily damaged.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 12:15:30 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sven6345789

actually, if you use your fighters as bombers, approaching at 6000 feet, giving the japanese both the maneuver advantage and the height-advantage, what do you expect?
i mean really

Those are bombers, and really slow, obsolete ones at that. They went in unescorted and the realistic thing happened.

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RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 4:16:47 AM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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I got no problem with it. You are talking hopelessly obsolete bombers unescorted with green to average aircrews against the best of the best. Ok, I do agree in that I would like to see more bombers abort the mission and survive. That is more realistic.

I don't know what you are doing wrong but I am only losing about 5-6 cats a month to operational losses. Search or asw no higher than 40% and I rest them if the morale drops below 80. I don't train and search at the same time but rotate units out of the line and then train them at 100%. One thing is there are very few training losses. Not very historical in itself but I dont mind. I am concerned that when I have more groups arrive that op losses will go higher, as there will be more planes in the air. Very pitiful replacement rate to deal with. Early in the war, I don't like to expend my heavies so I keep them out of the fight. They are all training in ASW and air search as well. They will not do as well as the cats but are a useful suppliment to the PBYs and allow me to rest them. The heavies are jacks of all trades in the early going so it does not hurt to have well rounded crews.

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Post #: 25

RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 5:50:33 AM

TheElf

Posts: 3870
Joined: 5/14/2003
From: Pax River, MD
Status: offline

Castor,
As previous posters have stated, the B-10 (or Martin Model 139) was well obsolete by 1941. It entered service in the US in '34 but was desinged in '32. Aside from being the first all metal monoplane Bomber to serve in the USAAC, it also pioneered the first Powered gun turret. It won the Collier Trophy in '32 as a cutting edge design. Nearly 10 years before your little rough up.

The A6m2 by comparison was just entering service a year or so before the out break of WWII in the pacific and was by all accounts the F-22 Raptor of '39-'41 (without the supercruise).

Seeing as how there were no precedents set by which we can measure your incident, we have to interpolate the likely outcomes. From what little info you've provided I'd say you had the odds stacked against you. The zeke alone in weight of fire, outguns your bombers (2x20mm + 2x7.7mm vs. 3x.30cal), and that assumes that all 3 guns of the Martin can be brought to bear at the same time....which they can't. You managed to hang them out to dry with no Escort, so even the Claudes have little to worry about...

If you look at each individual combat, the odds are near 1:1 in the early offing and then taper slightly, but assuming each Zeke or Claude (piloted by crack IJN pilots) can get a run in, I'd say you came off somewhat lightly! What is more remarkable is that you actually got 35 Dutch bombers to formate and coordinate an attack! Even more so remarkable that you would think to TRY!!! Even MORE remarkable is that you got results on 3 of 4 of these raids!!!!!

You made it easy on the japanese by congregating old, slow, poorly armored/armed, unescorted bombers in one place at the same time....flown by sub par dutch pilots...

In WitP this sort of meeting would be bloody indeed. None of the bombers would have gotten through and the thought that you might get hits and inflict damage to the IJ player would be laughable. Lucky for you this is AE. That you would post something like this and cry wolf ("it's broken, it's broken!") is disturbing. The problem isn't with the model. It's with the implementation of the model by the player. I can't code poor use of assets out of every player.

Next time take a deep breath and run this sort of thing through a sanity filter before posting like this...

< Message edited by TheElf -- 1/14/2010 5:53:11 AM >

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Post #: 26

RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 3:34:13 PM

Nikademus

Posts: 25684
Joined: 5/27/2000
From: Alien spacecraft
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

people, I�m not saying there shouldn�t be a slaughter. All the books you�ve read, what were slaughters? How were the loss rates? A slaughter in this case would be 30 bombers lost, a slaughter for the Dutch that they probably couldn�t believe.

How many incidents can you bring up with all the thousands of examples you�ve all together read in all your books that saw two dozen fighters take down 50 bombers? No matter what bombers, no matter what fighters. How many?

Aircraft, in general are much harder to down than is often thought, even the unarmored ones. A typical skirmish in most early war situations yeilds on average 2 planes lost. Later in the war the average creeps up to around 3-4 due to greater firepower of the fighters. This isn't per raid, but skirmish. One has to remember that its not usual for every single plane to be able to make an attack, the larger the size of the escort/CAP. To cite a real world example, the British considered a loss of 4 planes by one squadron in one sortie to be "catastrophic" (as one is talking 25% of the roster lost in one battle in a typical active group of 12 pilot/crews per squadron) In WitP, it would be considered inconsequencial. The most extreme losses are exceptions to the rule and stand out...such as the Schwinfurt raid (60 heavy bombers over the course of the battle), or the Luftwaffe's bloodiest day over Britian (again around 60ish.....but thats from 1000's of sorties and dozens of targets) Total G4M losses over Guad did not exceed 100 planes for the entire campaign etc. Its hard to shoot down a plane!...and unless one has a FDO officer and plenty of time to vector, often an escort and CAP in full cannot always be in the thick of the action. The Sky is a big place but you can only stuff so many planes into one sector of it. Thats why bonafied Aces are a minority and pilots with actual kills are a minority and also, why ratio exchanges between nations tend to even out or be close over the course of a campaign. Consistant extreme losses are necessary to help tilt ratios in one side's favor or the other and it doesn't happen too often. A final point....ammunition is finite and sometimes it takes a large amount to bring a plane down...especially a bomber.

Its rare for any CAP or escort to each shoot down a plane....usually its a small preportion of the engaged CAP/Escort. However successful defense/attack is not soley based on kills. Thats perhaps the biggest distorition caused in a wargame. Players gauge success primarily or even only by kills. In real life...sucessful defense or attack includes disrupting attacks by fighters.....on bombers....driving off said bombers. (for example, causing a section of bombers to jettison bombs and flee as often occured in the Med or North Africa).

In terms of AE. You'll generally see less bloody results vs. Stock but certain situations can still lead to high losses....the best scenario is the one you posted. Unescorted unarmored bombers vs. CAP (either side) In Joe/Nik Game an errant unescorted G4M raid near Darwin received similar punishment (30+ bombers lost in one raid.) In my current AI game, AI sent in unescorted Sallys over Singapore vs. an average CAP of 12-18 Buffalo. result......40 Sallies lost in one day. Even unescorted, in RL the actual loss would have been a fraction but with a good deal of damage and i'm sure some or most portions of the attacks disrupted.

Next best scenario is armored but unescorted bombers below 4E durability. One can get some excessive losses there as well. After that....fighter sweeps. Rule of thumb for the game? Always escort bombers. Game in that general sense does successfully present players with the fobile of unescorted vs escorted raids.

< Message edited by Nikademus -- 1/14/2010 3:37:12 PM >

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Post #: 27

RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 4:08:12 PM

mjk428

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: TheElf

Next time take a deep breath and run this sort of thing through a sanity filter before posting like this...

That was a great post until the end when you couldn't resist calling the guy crazy. Maybe you all need a "professional" filter?

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Post #: 28

RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 4:22:09 PM

Ikazuchi0585

Posts: 108
Joined: 1/25/2008
From: United States
Status: offline

I thought slow unescorted under-armed bombers usually get chewed up. There's no problem with that. Although i just got the game last week and I'm a complete Newb, nor did I have WITP;In all the hours I've spent playing AE, i haven't seen anything that would lead me to believe CAP is Uber. The worst raid I had involved 8 unescorted SBD's sent out in 2 raids against 17 Zero's. Needless to say, SBD's were decimated. With escorts, losses are fairly light.
It would have been different if those bombers had escorts and still suffered the same fate.
mjk428- he was implying what Castor said was crazy, not calling the guy crazy.

A newb's 2 cents.

(in reply to mjk428)

Post #: 29

RE: Good to know UBER Cap is gone - 1/14/2010 4:26:18 PM

LoBaron

Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

people, I�m not saying there shouldn�t be a slaughter. All the books you�ve read, what were slaughters? How were the loss rates? A slaughter in this case would be 30 bombers lost, a slaughter for the Dutch that they probably couldn�t believe.

How many incidents can you bring up with all the thousands of examples you�ve all together read in all your books that saw two dozen fighters take down 50 bombers? No matter what bombers, no matter what fighters. How many?

Aircraft, in general are much harder to down than is often thought, even the unarmored ones. A typical skirmish in most early war situations yeilds on average 2 planes lost. Later in the war the average creeps up to around 3-4 due to greater firepower of the fighters. This isn't per raid, but skirmish. One has to remember that its not usual for every single plane to be able to make an attack, the larger the size of the escort/CAP. To cite a real world example, the British considered a loss of 4 planes by one squadron in one sortie to be "catastrophic" (as one is talking 25% of the roster lost in one battle in a typical active group of 12 pilot/crews per squadron) In WitP, it would be considered inconsequencial. The most extreme losses are exceptions to the rule and stand out...such as the Schwinfurt raid (60 heavy bombers over the course of the battle), or the Luftwaffe's bloodiest day over Britian (again around 60ish.....but thats from 1000's of sorties and dozens of targets) Total G4M losses over Guad did not exceed 100 planes for the entire campaign etc. Its hard to shoot down a plane!...and unless one has a FDO officer and plenty of time to vector, often an escort and CAP in full cannot always be in the thick of the action. The Sky is a big place but you can only stuff so many planes into one sector of it. Thats why bonafied Aces are a minority and pilots with actual kills are a minority and also, why ratio exchanges between nations tend to even out or be close over the course of a campaign. Consistant extreme losses are necessary to help tilt ratios in one side's favor or the other and it doesn't happen too often. A final point....ammunition is finite and sometimes it takes a large amount to bring a plane down...especially a bomber.

Its rare for any CAP or escort to each shoot down a plane....usually its a small preportion of the engaged CAP/Escort. However successful defense/attack is not soley based on kills. Thats perhaps the biggest distorition caused in a wargame. Players gauge success primarily or even only by kills. In real life...sucessful defense or attack includes disrupting attacks by fighters.....on bombers....driving off said bombers. (for example, causing a section of bombers to jettison bombs and flee as often occured in the Med or North Africa).

In terms of AE. You'll generally see less bloody results vs. Stock but certain situations can still lead to high losses....the best scenario is the one you posted. Unescorted unarmored bombers vs. CAP (either side) In Joe/Nik Game an errant unescorted G4M raid near Darwin received similar punishment (30+ bombers lost in one raid.) In my current AI game, AI sent in unescorted Sallys over Singapore vs. an average CAP of 12-18 Buffalo. result......40 Sallies lost in one day. Even unescorted, in RL the actual loss would have been a fraction but with a good deal of damage and i'm sure some or most portions of the attacks disrupted.

Next best scenario is armored but unescorted bombers below 4E durability. One can get some excessive losses there as well. After that....fighter sweeps. Rule of thumb for the game? Always escort bombers. Game in that general sense does successfully present players with the fobile of unescorted vs escorted raids.

There are examples for a single US fighter shooting down 5-6 Betties alone when they tried to attack the US CV�s in the Solomon Sea IIRC.
The usual reason for fighters not shooting down bombers was and is the escort. Unescorted Japanese bombers were as good as dead as soon they met fighter opposition.
Difference to the game is this did not really happen . The Japanese did not attack Singapore with unescorted Sallies in a couple of separate raids into a waiting Buffalo CAP.

The players tend to produce situations that would have never happened in RL.

No side ever contemplated in sending 80+ human beings in obsolete, slow, underarmed bombers unescorted into a heavily defended area with enough early warning for the
elite CAP to form up easily in time (except maybe some late war kamikaze attacks). I have no doubt that the RL result would have resembled the combat report.

If you play ahistoric you will get ahistoric results.

There are some examples of raids with brutal loss percentages in WWII and all were called turkey shoot or black whateverday and never repeated again in the same fashion.
Even so not one of them was as suicidal as the raid that is the reason for this thread.

I really have to agree with The Elf here.

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