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F4U-1 Corsairs slaughter my strike groups

 
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F4U-1 Corsairs slaughter my strike groups - 1/16/2010 8:43:21 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		I am in 05/43 as a Japanese player and I am attacking bases defended by a single squadron of F4U-1 Corsairs (and a few F4F Wildcats). I send in attack groups of over 100 A6M3a fighters to escort the bombers at 10,000 ft from a distance of 2 hexes. The fighter squadrons have average experience levels between 60-70 and fatigue is non-existent. My groups are getting massacred every time. For the loss of 2 Corsairs, I will lose 40+ fighters. It isn't a single instance of bad luck, but recurs quite consistently.

Is there anything I can do to keep my planes from getting virtually annihilated? I haven't even come up against an F6F Hellcat yet and cringe about what will happen when the F4U-1Ds appear.

Thanks in advance for any advice you folks might have.

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RE: F4U-1 Corsairs slaughter my strike groups - 1/16/2010 9:24:02 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline 		Try sweeping first for a few turns then send in the bombers.

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Post #: 2
Problem - 1/16/2010 10:25:19 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you for the advice.  I tried it a few times now and get the same results.

100+ A6M3 Zeroes vs.
12 Corsairs + 12 Wildcats

40 Zeroes shot down for 5 claims in return.

Any other suggestions?


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Post #: 3
RE: Problem - 1/17/2010 4:13:23 AM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

Any other suggestions?


Switch to Admiral's Edition.

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Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 4
Problem - 1/17/2010 8:56:54 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

Any other suggestions?


Switch to Admiral's Edition.

If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.

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Post #: 5
RE: Problem - 1/17/2010 2:38:19 PM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline 		IIRC ... and I haven't played stock for a while, but I thought Corsairs got a bit of a bonus in witp. (although I could be wrong about that) ... Beside that your planes are hopelessly outmatched by the speed differential (which is a big factor) and the firepower. 6 guns certainly make mince meat of your forces as they "pass eachother". Nemo121 explained this well to me once, but I can't locate the email at present.

You need Franks or George to take on these guys, and failing that some naval bombardments, multiple sweeps from different bases and different alt, & finally multi - escorted LB with alt differentials. Each time, the defender will be less and less effective in defending, and you'll destroy the airbase and thus the fighters.

Hope some of this helps ... you playing PBEM or AI ?





Attachment (1)

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(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 6
RE: Problem - 1/17/2010 5:50:23 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

Any other suggestions?


Switch to Admiral's Edition.

If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.


You basically got to realize, anything beyond 1943 the Allies rule the skies in aircraft, I mean in my final campaign recently, I was getting 10:1 kill ratio with Hellcats and Corsairs are far superior.

Things like Speed is the major factor, and altitude, and turn radius. Basically the A6m is outclassed completely by hellcats/corsairs/p51/p38/p47/spit8.

Simple put the only thing the zero can do is out turn everyone of these planes, but the corsair for example, have speed, armor, firepower so they can simply pick a fight or run. I mean to escape a zero all a corsair pilot has to do is dive and the A6m can't follow. The only japanese aircraft before 1943 that can compete with corsairs on a somewhat limited ground is the Ki-61. Beyond that I would say start pumping out N1K george's and Ki84s.

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 1/17/2010 5:52:28 PM >

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 7
Problem - 1/17/2010 6:39:10 PM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline 		Thank you gentlemen for taking the time and effort with such a careful analysis. 

I am only playing the AI, atm, and the 10:1 loss ratio (in its favour) is just about right.

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Post #: 8
RE: Problem - 1/17/2010 7:58:22 PM   
htuna


Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

IIRC ... and I haven't played stock for a while, but I thought Corsairs got a bit of a bonus in witp. (although I could be wrong about that) ... Beside that your planes are hopelessly outmatched by the speed differential (which is a big factor) and the firepower. 6 guns certainly make mince meat of your forces as they "pass eachother". Nemo121 explained this well to me once, but I can't locate the email at present.

You need Franks or George to take on these guys, and failing that some naval bombardments, multiple sweeps from different bases and different alt, & finally multi - escorted LB with alt differentials. Each time, the defender will be less and less effective in defending, and you'll destroy the airbase and thus the fighters.

Hope some of this helps ... you playing PBEM or AI ?






I just got this yesterday.. is that comparison database screen shot you have from in the game?

(in reply to n01487477)
Post #: 9
RE: Problem - 1/17/2010 8:03:08 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625


quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

IIRC ... and I haven't played stock for a while, but I thought Corsairs got a bit of a bonus in witp. (although I could be wrong about that) ... Beside that your planes are hopelessly outmatched by the speed differential (which is a big factor) and the firepower. 6 guns certainly make mince meat of your forces as they "pass eachother". Nemo121 explained this well to me once, but I can't locate the email at present.

You need Franks or George to take on these guys, and failing that some naval bombardments, multiple sweeps from different bases and different alt, & finally multi - escorted LB with alt differentials. Each time, the defender will be less and less effective in defending, and you'll destroy the airbase and thus the fighters.

Hope some of this helps ... you playing PBEM or AI ?






I just got this yesterday.. is that comparison database screen shot you have from in the game?


Yes, even if you use mods you want to check out the aircraft comparison chart, its a program called WITP tracker that has it. But remember stock aircraft are far different from mods, so you want to keep an eye on aircraft coming out etc to see how it stacks with your opponents.


(in reply to htuna)
Post #: 10
RE: Problem - 1/17/2010 10:50:43 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline
quote:


If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.


Large losses in AE are not the norm. I typically see my corsairs shoot down 1 or 2 planes on a sweep. In fact, when I replied, I thought I was in the AE forum or I would have kept my mouth shut. Air to air is totally different in AE.

_____________________________

"Its a dog eat dog world Sammy and I am wearing Milkbone underwear" -Norm.

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 11
RE: Problem - 1/18/2010 3:53:43 AM   
n01487477


Posts: 4779
Joined: 2/21/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625
quote:






I just got this yesterday.. is that comparison database screen shot you have from in the game?

Tracker for Witp is available here ... http://sites.google.com/site/witptracker2/

forum link http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=1774229

Fair Winds and calm seas!

_____________________________

-Damian-
EconDoc
TrackerAE
Tutes&Java

(in reply to htuna)
Post #: 12
RE: Problem - 1/18/2010 4:40:58 AM   
htuna


Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline 		Thanks!!!

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Post #: 13
RE: Problem - 1/18/2010 8:31:41 PM   
Capt. Harlock


Posts: 5358
Joined: 9/15/2001
From: Los Angeles
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

quote:


If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.


Large losses in AE are not the norm. I typically see my corsairs shoot down 1 or 2 planes on a sweep. In fact, when I replied, I thought I was in the AE forum or I would have kept my mouth shut. Air to air is totally different in AE.


khyerbill has it in a nutshell. It's not a bug or defective behavior -- the combat resolution engines (A-to-A and others) have been revamped for AE, and so you can expect different results.

_____________________________

Civil war? What does that mean? Is there any foreign war? Isn't every war fought between men, between brothers?

--Victor Hugo

(in reply to khyberbill)
Post #: 14
RE: Problem - 1/19/2010 3:45:31 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock


quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

quote:


If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.


Large losses in AE are not the norm. I typically see my corsairs shoot down 1 or 2 planes on a sweep. In fact, when I replied, I thought I was in the AE forum or I would have kept my mouth shut. Air to air is totally different in AE.


khyerbill has it in a nutshell. It's not a bug or defective behavior -- the combat resolution engines (A-to-A and others) have been revamped for AE, and so you can expect different results.


results regardless should be historically accurate, Corsair should in fact claim high numbers against zero's in A2A, however not in the numbers WITP give, but smaller numbers.


(in reply to Capt. Harlock)
Post #: 15
RE: Problem - 1/19/2010 11:42:28 AM   
tocaff


Posts: 4781
Joined: 10/12/2006
From: USA now in Brasil
Status: offline 		Statistics require that a very large sample prove them out, yet just being in the ballpark is pretty good for a game.  There are so many variables:  pilot exp, fatigue, morale, range of mission, mission type and altitude advantage just to name some.  Think about it, would you rather be in a Zero or Corsair with your rear end on the line?  Granted in AE things have been toned down a bit, but there will always be some who will find fault.  It's a compelling game, but it is a game.

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I never thought that doing an AAR would be so time consuming and difficult.
www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2080768

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Post #: 16
RE: Problem - 1/19/2010 5:16:11 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline
quote:

results regardless should be historically accurate, Corsair should in fact claim high numbers against zero's in A2A, however not in the numbers WITP give, but smaller numbers.


In one of my current PBEMs I was consistently getting between 2:1 and 4:1 against A6M3s and Tojos on the dark skies above Darwin. The P-38s and P-40s could not sweep the skies, but once I was able to put 40 corsairs in the air at once, the skies were quickly swept of foes. On a side note, I have not seen a clear sky over Darwin since battles began there in June of 42, now April of 43. Not a place I would want to visit, severe storms almost every day in AE!

_____________________________

"Its a dog eat dog world Sammy and I am wearing Milkbone underwear" -Norm.

(in reply to Misconduct)
Post #: 17
RE: Problem - 1/19/2010 7:09:19 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

quote:

results regardless should be historically accurate, Corsair should in fact claim high numbers against zero's in A2A, however not in the numbers WITP give, but smaller numbers.


In one of my current PBEMs I was consistently getting between 2:1 and 4:1 against A6M3s and Tojos on the dark skies above Darwin. The P-38s and P-40s could not sweep the skies, but once I was able to put 40 corsairs in the air at once, the skies were quickly swept of foes. On a side note, I have not seen a clear sky over Darwin since battles began there in June of 42, now April of 43. Not a place I would want to visit, severe storms almost every day in AE!


Your making me drool over AE, i'm slowly pecking away in my final campaign in WITP, date is 12/43, just landed next to Manila, so far its been one pretty good game, however japan has really disappeared since the battle of port moresby, I rarely see planes in the air or any japanese ships. Guess the AI can only do so much when it has absolutely no oil.

(in reply to khyberbill)
Post #: 18
RE: Problem - 1/20/2010 12:57:00 PM   
dwg

 

Posts: 319
Joined: 1/22/2008
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct
You basically got to realize, anything beyond 1943 the Allies rule the skies in aircraft, I mean in my final campaign recently, I was getting 10:1 kill ratio with Hellcats and Corsairs are far superior.


Historically the Corsair's kill ratio is around 11:1 if memory serves, but that's in an environment where the Corsairs were typically engaging at parity or with the upper hand in numbers of aircraft and often against pilots with lesser experience. 10 to 1 odds against relatively experienced opposition should not let them achieve the same kill ratio.

(in reply to Misconduct)
Post #: 19
RE: Problem - 1/20/2010 1:02:35 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

quote:

ORIGINAL: Capt. Harlock

quote:

Any other suggestions?


Switch to Admiral's Edition.

If you are suggesting that this is somehow a bug or defective behaviour in WiTP that is corrected in WiTP:AE, please elaborate on what the deficient behaviour supposedly is.



it´s not a bug it´s working as designed took us years to accept that it´s not a bug. AE is better but there will still be completely loopsided results. Like cap Harlock already suggested, switch to AE, it´s an improvement. You can still experience happenings like 130 Allied ac of all types shot down for the loss of 3 Zeros for example (a recent happening on the AE forum) so I expect to see the same happening vice versa too. But in general, AE is better.

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Post #: 20
RE: Problem - 1/20/2010 10:53:29 PM   
rtrapasso


Posts: 22653
Joined: 9/3/2002
Status: offline 		Reading the AEs AAR's, it seems like the NORM is for the Allies to come out on the short end of any air encounter... i've seen multiple reports where the Allies are slaughtered in air to air CV encounters...

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Post #: 21
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