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japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 2:18:31 AM

jackyo123

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am trying to play the japanese player, first time. The aircraft choices are totally unfamiliar to me - unlike the us airframes, i have no idea what the 'proper' selection of planes are, as i dont know whats better than what.

Can someone give me an idea of:

- which are my best early war fighters that i should concentrate on?

- mid war fighters?

- late war fighters?

- early war light / mid bombers?\

- mid war ight/mid bombers?

- late war light/mid bombers?

- early war Torp bombers?

- mid war torp bombers?

- late war torp bombers?

- float planes - early/mid/late?

And the Japanese seem to be RDing about 5 different frames, and producing over 20 or so different aircraft. Should any types but the 'Nates' be turned off early? Ive read 'produce many nakajima's' - but which engine? there are so many ...

very confused!

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 3:03:01 AM

n01487477

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jacko123,
picking planes has always been up for debate in witp and ae. You should not engage in the idea of building everything, keep it simple and streamlined.

The criteria you take should include the anecdotal evidence in AAR's and using either Tracker, Staff or the editor to look at a comparison between fighters etc - I know you have Tracker and we have provided and area for this comparison.

Once you have consolidated what you think you want to build for each type you then need to evaluate:

TBO and upgrade path - you want to maximise airgroups and allow for a smooth transition to upgrades. Is the plane an end build ?(if the factory doesn't upgrade - then you must be sure you want this a/c)

How many of each type are you looking to build? (AE seems much less bloody than witp, but you need to plan out what you think will be viable/needed)

Engine use - thinking: "How can I consolidate my engine use?", taken the former two points, what is their engine use and how many must I produce to allow this.

If any of you are interested, I can do a full Tracker tutorial on what I'd do and how to use the program to determine all of this ... Otherwise this is a good starting point

PS. Nakajima Ha-35

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 1/16/2010 3:29:03 AM >

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 3:18:25 AM

PaxMondo

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For some of these, I do not think there is a clear answer. It depends upon your strategy as JAP. Seriously. If you are trying for a win in '43, which is a gamble as you will have to extend yourself considerably beyond a safe limit, which doesn't allow for much of a plan for '44. If you are going for a win in endgame, then you are likely going to transition from offense to defense in '43 and count on being able to hold the Allies at bay better than history. This would mean solid defense in depth, with tactical counter-attacks.

The difference these two strategies impute can best be illustrated by IJN fighters. Going for a win in '43 your best offensive fighter is still the A6M3a. You need range to escort bombers on their missions. You count on your successful offensive to preclude a defense. OTOH, going for '46, you would likely start transitioning groups to the George or Nick (PDU ON) to get ready for the hoards of bombers coming at you in '44. These are very different build strategies, and even more difference in the positioning of the groups etc.

Which strategy is better? Both can be successful, but both can be disastrous. The '43 win strategy tends to be pretty exciting and leads to quick games. If it doesn't work, the implosion across the board for JAP can be very spectacular.

I always think of these strategic choices in the context of Fischer/Spassky. Bobby always went for the kill, and he either won spectacularly or lost huge. Spassky played for the endgame where he could almost always ensure no worse than a draw. Bobby's style worked for him in Reykjvik in '72, but in the long run Spassky was far more successful.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 3:21:00 AM

PaxMondo

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quote:

ORIGINAL: n01487477

If any of you are interested, I can do a full Tracker tutorial on what I'd do and how to use the program to determine all of this ... Otherwise this is a good starting point

Damien, your link did not work for me ...

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 3:30:57 AM

n01487477

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Sorry, yeah I had 2 https in the address - it is just some tracker (a little dated) info on how to read the information on those screens. It needs to be updated as I've added more and show the IMO very valuable engine production planner.

http://sites.google.com/site/witptracker/air-production

[edit] Excellent points btw PaxMondo

< Message edited by n01487477 -- 1/16/2010 3:45:37 AM >

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 5:53:25 AM

seille

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@jackyo

I had the same problems not long ago, preparing a game with PDU on as japanese.
I used AE tracker (without that the task would have been a nightmare for me) to look at the different
planes.
You can filter a lot and look at available IJA Bomber only. Compare and look what you want.
I decided for Sally only and converted the other factories.
Then i did the same with IJA fighters. Focussing at Oscars and reduced the Nates a lot. Will stop producing Nates when the
Engines are used up.
And so on.
I noticed first which airframes i don�t longer want, then which engines. These factories i mostly converted.

Make a list of what airframes you produce and how many after repairs, then calculate the engines you�ll need
and increase the factories. An idea of how many aircraft i�ll produce i got from several AAR�s/threads here.

I did not care about any R&D in my first turn. That i�ll do later. For now untouched.
But i�ll definitely try to speed up some fighter models like Ki84.

It�s a bit work to do all this. As Damian suggested i tried to keep my production streamlined and not spread over
too many aircraft models. The link he posted i used myself when i started to play around with the Tracker.
Again: For this task the AE tracker is your best friend.

Just my (noob) way how i handled that task.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 7:30:17 AM

sven6345789

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tracker is a must if you play the japanese.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 7:50:32 PM

jackyo123

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I will start using tracker then - i've found witpstaff to be extremely helpful too. But Trackers alerts are fantastic.

Seill - Question on production - some of the factories that are researching futuristic (post5 43/44) designs wont give me the option to convert to current models - only r&D models - is there a way to change that? I am short of am6m'2, so producing tojo rockets have no interest for me.

Paxmondo - thanks

Damien - thanks. Tracker is fantastic.

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Post #: 8

RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 8:02:34 PM

seille

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A thing i asked also already in a other thread.
The following was told me:

If you play with realistic R&D (i do) you can�t change the R&D factories into production factories
for currently available planes and vice versa. Also to read at page 268 in the manual.

All you can do is to change the R&D factories with stuff you don�t want to planes/engines you want to have
in numbers and earlier. What you want to produce depends on your strategy. For myself i don�t expect to survive that long in my first game (too much i can screw),
so i won�t research anything that isnt�available in early 44.
I�ll do the R&D adjustments after the first turns are over. Too many other things to do now.

This AAR inspired me the most beside some others:
http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2280485

Btw, you can change the R&D to production sites when you play with realistic R&D off.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 8:49:52 PM

hubin

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I will start with such aircraft production.

A6m2 100 -> 100 x Ha-35
Ki-43Ic 100 -> 100 x Ha-35
B5N2 30 -> 30 x Ha-35
Ki-56 11 -> 11x2 x Ha-35
--------------------------------
252 Ha-35 needed

D3A1 30 -> 30 x Ha-33
E13A1 27 -> 27 x Ha-33
H6K4 11 -> 11 x 4 x Ha-33
--------------------------------
101 Ha-33 needed

G4M1 40 -> 40 x 2 Ha-32
Ki21 IIa 64 -> 64 x 2 Ha-32
--------------------------------
208 Ha-32

E14Y1 9 -> 9 x Hitachi Amakaze
-------------------------------------
9 needed

Ha-35 P 260 N 252
Ha-32 P 210 N 208
Ha-33 P 105 N 101
Hitachi Amakaze P 0 N 9

The next step depends on many incentives.
-your opponent style of play
-your style of play

quote:

tracker is a must if you play the japanese.

You can always use pencil, piece of paper and some simple math +� allot of� spare time.

In future i'll concentrate on:
Tojo
Jack

A6m5 as carier capable fighter

R&D concentrate on:

Ki84
George

< Message edited by hubin -- 1/16/2010 9:51:22 PM >

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 9:03:26 PM

seille

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@hubin
You don�t produce any Nells ?
Wondered about your 101 Ha33 against my 175. But i�ll produce 44 Nells.

My planning was similar and i did it on PAPER

Similar to your way, noted the planes i want with numbers plus the needed engines with type and numbers.
Then i calculated the overall numbers for each airframe and engine and adjusted/converted the factories.
But the most of the prework i had to do in tracker.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/16/2010 9:23:12 PM

hubin

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G4M1 do the same work as nells, its almost the same quallity so I see no reason to produce them both.
Jack use Ha-32 engine, but it is too early for me to expand Ha-32 production (This could be a reason to keep production of nells).
But this game is about choices and this is my.

Tracker does not work on my 64-bit system, so sometimes I have to perform the analysis on a laptop with 32-bit OS, which is sometimes also more difficult than using a pencil and a simple calculation.

< Message edited by hubin -- 1/16/2010 9:28:07 PM >

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 12:18:07 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hubin

Tracker does not work on my 64-bit system, so sometimes I have to perform the analysis on a laptop with 32-bit OS, which is sometimes also more difficult than using a pencil and a simple calculation.

We can fix your problems probably by having you uninstall Java 64..

1. install Java 6 update 18 for Windows Platform (the newest x86 version from Sun; do not use the Windows x64 platform version;do not change installation path). You can grab it from here: https://cds.sun.com/is-bin/INTERSHOP.enfinity/WFS/CDS-CDS_Developer-Site/en_US/-/USD/ViewProductDetail-Start?ProductRef=jre-6u18-oth-JPR@CDS-CDS_Developer

I release that tracker deals only with numbers that you've "dialed in" not initial planning, but I'll look at making that a feature in the future too ...

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 2:54:41 AM

Mynok

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Actually, I did get it running with the 64-bit version. What I had to install was the vcredist_x86.exe.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 2:58:03 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
Actually, I did get it running with the 64-bit version. What I had to install was the vcredist_x86.exe.

Thanks Mynok ... yeah there seems to be many ways to skin a cat here... I might have to upgrade to 64 bit with my next laptop and see.

Generally my advice is

quote:

Try doing this ...

-Uninstall any and all C++ libraries 95 and 98
-Uninstall Java 64 and 32
-Reinstall the Java 32bit JVM
-Reinstall the 32 bit C++ patch (someone reported the latest patch didn't wok but the original did ... I'd try both)
-Run from the batch

(I'm not sure if you can then install Java 64bit JRE and configure it to work as well)

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 3:31:45 AM

Mynok

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I have no clue what all I did. But the final kicker was the vcredist_x86 install. That made it work for me.

Actually I was wrong...I do have the 32-bit Java. So there ya go: 32-bit java and the above vc install.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 10:39:46 AM

hubin

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Thanks for the good intentions, but have tried both installing and uninstalling various versions of java and vcredist and a combination of the two.
It seems that for me to not work at all.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 10:43:18 AM

n01487477

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hubin

Thanks for the good intentions, but have tried both installing and uninstalling various versions of java and vcredist and a combination of the two.
It seems that for me to not work at all.

Sorry mate ... 64 bit is a bit of a headache for me without being able to test it properly ... good luck for the future & maybe if I can find out exactly I'll be in contact ...

Cheers

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 11:54:22 AM

Feltan

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To the OP,

I am going to part ways with my forum friends on this issue. To be clear, their advice is generally sound, and you would benefit from following it. However, it all rather misses the point in my opinion. While aircraft production is, in fact, important -- produce as much as you can -- I advise not to spend so much time fretting about it. In my experience, by say mid-1944 or so, it is all rather a moot point. Eventually, the quantity and quality of late war Allied aircraft will lay waste to most carefully crafted of Japanese aircraft production schemes.

To the best of my knowledge, there is no expert production formula that will "win the game" for the Japanese, nor will you enjoy yourself trying to come up with one -- unless you are really more of an odd duck than the rest of us.

No. There is a different way.

Embrace bushido. Abandon the western concept of "plane management." Mimic the real life Japanese concept of "spirit over steel." Be clever, unpredictable and aggressive -- rock your opponent back on his heels, and make him wonder "what is this crazy bastard going to try next."

Before your next evening gaming session, sit down to a nice dinner of sushi or sashimi -- or if you have weak knees, at least some teriaki chicken and rice. Use chopsticks. Drink copious ammount of sake. Then drink some more sake. Then, sit in front of the computer screen and say to yourself, "Die you dog-faced round-eyed imperialist oppressor!" Try a land attack at low odds; conduct a submarine offensive off of India; land some troops amphibiously outside of the "normal" perimeter of Japanese influence -- Do something different! Be calculating and dangerous.

For example: In a current PBEM, I sent an empty convoy of about 20 maru's with light escort on a bee-line for Diego Garcia. I wasn't quiet about it -- lots of air recon from subs on Diego Garcia to telegraph the move. The KB was about six hexes behind the convoy, and as planned I drew out the British fleet from Columbo and gave it a rather good thrashing to my opponent's extreme dismay. I had conducted some air operations south of the Marshal Islands to give the impression that the KB was in the South-Eastern Pacific -- I caught my oppenent off guard, and his style of play can best be described as "careful, reserved and conservative" since this episode.

The point being: By being a little different, and by sinking a pair of British aircraft carriers and a pair of battleships, I probably did more to contribute to the long term survival of the Japanese Empire in that game than if I had spent 40+ hours trying to optimize a detailed aircraft production agenda that will eventually end up in the crapper anyway.

So, do produce as many aircraft as you can -- pay attention to the Japanese production side of the game. However, don't delude yourself -- you can't materially change the shortage of pilots, nor the quality of airframes, and you aren't going to out-produce the combined Allied nations in the long run no matter how hard you try.

Regards,
Feltan

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/17/2010 2:16:44 PM

Chickenboy

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Feltan's got a point. Except for the bit a bout 'drinking more Sake'. If I did that, I wouldn't be able to figure out how to use the mouse, much less command a massive navy at war.

As the IJ, don't consider yourself doomed apriori. With careful command of your air resources and training of pilots, you can hold off the shifting of the air balance almost indefinitely. The allies don't have near the late war surfeit of equipment, men and material that they did in WiTP. Pilot quality suffers too, unless the allies pay close attention to training. Your opponent may not-then doom on him for ignoring this.

I think the single greatest influence of airframe survival is pilot experience and training. Sending a 75 exp pilot in an Oscar C into aerial combat will have a very different outcome than sending a 35 exp pilot. First example: you lose the airframe and pilot. Second example: he lives to fight another day and *maybe* downs an enemy too. First example: you need to replace the airframe and pilot. Second: both live to fight again.

You don't need to produce as many fighters if you don't throw inexperienced pilots into the meatgrinder. Please consider this when ordering construction and assembly of airframes.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/18/2010 11:20:23 AM

hubin

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Feltan
Embrace bushido. Abandon the western concept of "plane management." Mimic the real life Japanese concept of "spirit over steel." Be clever, unpredictable and aggressive -- rock your opponent back on his heels, and make him wonder "what is this crazy bastard going to try next."

This is what I call the Western understanding of the spirit of bushido. Take a sword and do something unpredictable that everybody knew that you're daft.

Japanese approach I would rather describe as pursuit for perfection in every aspect of your life.
Japan is destined to lose, but this is rather a bad goal to be pursued.

As i understand this topic should explain the basis for calculating the air production for new players.
But it starts with an interesting discussion, pity that my English skills are not as fluent as I wish, but I hope you understand my point of view.

Japan's air force as both the navy and army have basically 3 main directions of development diuring the game period. I believe that they should follow them. Period of their occurrence depends on the quality of both players.

1. Phase offensive
You should train pilots, and sent them to the pot as soon as the master level of experience is gain.

Air production should provide resources for costly offensive operations. And prepare you for future phases.

2. Phase of the initiative
When the Allied resistance becomes a problem you need to start fighting to keep the initiative, or give it for a possible high price.
That wake-up call to building expert reserve pilots pool.

3. Phase defensive
You lost the initiative, now even a successful retreat would be a cause for joy.
Now pilots are trading their lives for various goals. Example: supply operation for cut base costs 300 pilots.
Tactical counter strike in a forgotten area 100 pilots.

Prices from my WITP pebem play (in 6/44).
etc...

Mastering the air production is the part of "art of play", rather small part.

< Message edited by hubin -- 1/18/2010 11:30:04 AM >

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/18/2010 1:38:36 PM

xj900uk

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For me, the no 1 priority of the Japanese play should be to preserve some decent pilots long enough until the better models come through (and try to bring them through sooner). Planes like the Zero and Oscar, although world-beaters in '41, were obsolete by '43 as the Allies had developed tactics to get round their dogfighting advantages, and were kept in production for far too long (where you can lay blame to the Japanese War Ministry, Mitsubishi wanted to develop new models but were never granted any decent R&D funds by the Ministers, who were quite happy to keep the Zero going as they could never look beyond the short-term & never imagined the Allies would develop better planes or different tactics).
Planes like the George, Frank, Jill and especially the Sam are all world-beaters even in 44/45 so long as they have decent pilots to fly them

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/18/2010 1:49:44 PM

Feltan

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hubin

This is what I call the Western understanding of the spirit of bushido. Take a sword and do something unpredictable that everybody knew that you're daft.

Japanese approach I would rather describe as pursuit for perfection in every aspect of your life.
Japan is destined to lose, but this is rather a bad goal to be pursued.

Hubin,

I may well be guilty of a Western understanding -- little one can do about their origin of birth.

And perhaps my language and phrasing were not as precise as I had hoped too. I was trying to convey that as a Japanese player it is, in my opinion, folly to try and play with mechanics of aircraft production efficiency as your prime goal.

It is easy to say: "produce 150 Ha-35 engines by such and such a date." Now, perhaps that is good advice. But I maintain it is much more important as a Japanese player what you do with those engines rather than the mere fact you are producing them.

Trying to convey that concept in a convincing manner isn't an easy task. Quantified numbers of engines and airframes is a much easier to sell. And from my point of view, trying to run the AE Japanese economy like a Boeing or Lockheed Martin plant is, in fact, a Western approach to conducting war. I do not believe the Japanese player can win this game through massive production.

Lastly, you have no appology to make about your English skills. My Japanese language skills are far worse than your English skills. Outside of Tokyo and Osaka, one only need wander a few kilometers from a Shinkansen station to learn how pitiful their Nihongo really is!

Regards,
Feltan

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/19/2010 9:17:19 AM

hubin

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You're right, it is only a small part of the art of play.
Much more important in AE WITP than in the old WITP, because the advantage the allies have is in the quantity only, the quality is only slightly better.

My language skills in Japanese end with the Google translator, for the Japanese I am still a man of the west a little further east than the Citizenns of US but still far from ideal.

quote:

I do not believe the Japanese player can win this game through massive production.

You're right, but i don't belive ignoring production could take you further.

quote:

It is easy to say: "produce 150 Ha-35 engines by such and such a date."

You're right, and it is easier to think about the production, having to deal with specific numbers.
It was never supposed to be a recipe for victory, it is just a way to start wrestling with the problem.

Regards,
hubin eastern european

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Post #: 24

RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/19/2010 12:40:59 PM

Feltan

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Hubin,

Hahaha ..... You gave me the impression that you were Japanese! Quite a trick!

After your last post, I suspect that we are probably in violent agreement.

Regards,
Feltan

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/20/2010 12:30:32 AM

findmeifyoucan

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Actually, there is a reason for producing both. Nell's are already in production and I do not like to waste resources and supply by converting them to Betty's and wasting all that time waiting for production to come up again after repairing all those factories. Especially when they are similar in quality. I will have to check but don't Nell's have a much longer transfer range as well?
But, like you said many options and many different ways to play this game. To each his own recipe for success. :-)

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/20/2010 2:44:27 AM

Mynok

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I believe some Nells get radar later that might prove useful at finding those perfidious subs. We'll find out eventually.

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RE: japanese plane management first timer - 1/20/2010 1:34:04 PM

xj900uk

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Worth keeping a few Nells in production, but Beatties are the better long-distance bomber (just). They do get upgraded versions in '44 but these although an improvement on the originals are still pretty mediocre...

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Post #: 28