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Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/28/2010 7:33:03 PM

sfbaytf

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My first try at Tarawa was a real clusterf***. I ended up re-embarking the invasion force and leaving it to my opponent. The second attempt aroung the Kwajeleans went better. At least I took the place, but having overstacked units stay isn't a good thing and getting them back onto transports quickly hasn't been easy.

Mabye by the third or 4th try I'll get it down.

There is definately an artform to invading small islands. Other places where you don't have to worry about stacking limits allows for greater lattitude.

I love the APA's I can't recall if they were present in stock WitP.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/28/2010 10:36:28 PM

Treznor

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Yes, island limitations does pose a problem for me to, I have yet to figure out how the trick, is there a way to know how many men are in a unit or does the 6000 mean something else?

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/28/2010 10:59:55 PM

John Lansford

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The AI took Canton from me the 2nd time by invading with a full division; 12,000 men vs 4500 defenders. Once they took the island, though, I kept intercepting any supply/evacuation TF's for over a month before they finally managed to get most of them back out.

(in reply to Treznor)

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/28/2010 11:11:50 PM

freeboy

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I pretty much ignore teh 6k figure, just a penalty, it is alot worse to land your troops and have them all die due to not enough , especially as the allies as you have ten of everything you need.. lots and lots of supplies etc plus troops!
So, take your 6k penalty

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 3:28:40 AM

sfbaytf

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I agree and disagree with ignoring the limits. I screwed up Tarawa because I stupidly assumed it was a small atoll and landed with too few troops. I didn't make that mistake with the next assault on an atoll. The problem in my limited experience is if you go in with an overstacked assault you need to have a ready plan and force to get them off asap. Otherwise you'll tie down a large number of troops doing nothing and losing effectiveness. Sooner or later you're going to need to take them off the atoll and ship them back to a place where they can recuperate. The longer they remain in an overstacked situation the more disruption they'll suffer.

I'm not sure, but it also appeard that leaving too many troops on an atoll over the stacking limits eats supplies like crazy in addition to causing a large disruption penalty. The whole objective in capturing an atoll is to operate airplanes and perhaps as a port and having too many troops and then trying to land a base force and naval support unit onto an already overstacked base to operate aircraft is asking for trouble.

I'm still learning and still trying to figure out the optimum way to do the atoll assault thing. In all honesty its probably not necessary in the current game I'm playing, but I figure I may as well learn it now. Just getting the right mix is a challenge and there doesn't seem to be a "magic formula".

While the allieds do have plenty, certain specalized units that are vital such as combat engineers, tanks and artillery are relatively limited and getting them to the right place at the right time can be challenging. if your opponent is good they will have strong defenses and defending interior lines by the time the allieds take the offensive. That may mean you'll may find yourself conducting coordinated assaults in different locations and then "plenty" may seem like not enough and not at the right place at the right time. The new port limits add another level of headaches to deal with as it could easily throw off your timeline.

Make a mistake and you may lose a bunch of vital ships and men. Then you'll be stuck with less than optimal amphibious forces to work with.

Its feel like I'm doing the work of a traffic cop/movie director and choreographer as much as a military strategist at this stage of the war.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 1/29/2010 3:29:02 AM >

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 4:42:57 AM

pompack

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I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

(in reply to sfbaytf)

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 5:06:25 AM

sfbaytf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Number 3. You may or may not want to land naval support troops. It all depends on how the atoll fits into the overall picture. For instance if you plan on using the atoll as a hub/stepping stone/staging area then yes naval support troops could be useful. If thats the case then #5 would not be applicable.

Air support units will eventually be needed. Do you land them in the initial assault wave or follow up wave?

Construction troops/engineers are useful in many cases. If you blast the place invading, the construction/engineer units will be very useful in getting the captured airfield/port back into operating condition faster.

Land HQ's will be useful in minimizing disruption? Don't know the exact answer to this.

APH HQ's on command ships very useful.

Yes, get the assault force off asap. The best means? LST's/LSI's/APA's/AKA's seem to work well. AP's. AK's seem to work less well. Docking ships would also be in order, but the ports tend to be small on atolls and it may be damaged. Its would seem that naval support if landed with the initial assault wave would be useful for getting troops back onto landing ships, however the larger naval support units may cause a problem with stacking limits. Using the smaller naval support detachments may be a better choice.

LST's/LSI's if you have some to spare are useful loaded up with supplies.

Tanks/combat ENG's/ART. I'm using them alot in invasions. One thing I've noticed about tanks-they don't suffer much losses in assaults. They do get fatigued and disrupted however.

Make sure you unload as much supplies as quickly as possible. Nothing worse than running out. Your assault capability will diminish quickly without them.

Marines suffer less disrution in amphibious assaults.

I also suspect that breaking down a division and landing them as seperate regiments is better than landing a division as a whole.
Not sure of this, but so far it seems that defenders on atolls suffer much more from carrier air bombardment once your assault troops have landed and made contact.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 1/29/2010 5:15:30 AM >

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 5:20:18 AM

freeboy

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ok in regard to overstacking and disruption
NONONO!!!
maybe what you guys are talking about above is WAD, but I have an overstack in Midway in my PBEM game forever. certainly over ten months and lots of supplies, so I just reloaded the last turn, disruption and fatigue under 5!!!
So I guess with enough support and supplies you simply burn more suppleis, again I ask, who cares?

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 5:26:55 AM

sfbaytf

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May work against the AI, but in a PBEM game the situation you described could lead to a counterattack by your opponent.

Midway is out of the way. What about an atoll that is close to enemy bases and you haven't eliminated your enemys forces. A wise PBEM player may wait for the right opportunity and counterattack. At the very least you may be forced to defend your overstacked base from a counterattack when those forces could be better employer elsewhere.

I also suspect that if a PBEM opponent sends a fleet on a bombardment mission your overstacked and oversupplied garrioson would suffer greatly and those plenty of supplies will go up in smoke...

How overstacked are you? I had 3 regiments of Marines a arm bn and art BN on an atoll and after taking the place suffered a pretty decent disruption effect. Probably overkill, but after my first fiasco I wanted to make sure.

I don't have much experience and I'm still feeling my way with taking atolls. So far most of my experience has been taking islands and bases where stacking limits don't apply.

So far my opponent is very good at counter attacking. I take nothing for granted. I don't like having a situation where I leave forces vulnerable to being pick off one by one.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 1/29/2010 5:43:26 AM >

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 7:23:12 AM

Brady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Which speaks to the core problem.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 1:45:06 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Which speaks to the core problem.

This is almost . . . Zen-like.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 2:38:29 PM

pompack

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

I am not far enough along to have any really valid experience, but it seems to me (based on reading rules and AARs) that you move through several phases

1. Land large force using many ships (NOT minimum ships) and using APA/AKA if you got them
2. Crunch the opponent quickly before you starve
3. Land LOTS of naval support troops
4. Withdraw assault force
5. Withdraw Naval support troops
6. Land garrison troops

Number 3. You may or may not want to land naval support troops. It all depends on how the atoll fits into the overall picture. For instance if you plan on using the atoll as a hub/stepping stone/staging area then yes naval support troops could be useful. If thats the case then #5 would not be applicable.

If you choose NOT to land "LOTS" of Naval Support troops, the game is not long enough to withdraw two or three divisions from an atoll (well, not without using hundreds of transports each trying to load a squad

).

You can skip #5 if you like, but without #3 step 4 can take a long time.

(in reply to sfbaytf)

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 4:12:05 PM

sfbaytf

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It does take long to get a division off an atoll and units with heavy equipment-ARM/ART even longer, so yes naval support is a big help. I'm still just trying to figure out the right "mix"

For instance would a smaller naval support detachment with 30 naval support working with APA's/LST/LSI work out ok? I've noticed that APA's with integral higgins boats are pretty efficient by themselves as are LST's and LSI's, so perhaps less naval support would do the job. Idealy the APA's and LSI's will be re-embarking the infantry untis while the LST's re-embarking the ARM and ART. You could also dock 1 or 2 transports and have them re-embark units.

The older AP's and AK's much less so. They take longer to unload and re-embark when not docked, so then a naval support unit with 50-100 naval support will probably be more efficient.

AKA's I'm not sure of...

All I do know is if you're not careful you can have a real mess and traffic jam around an atoll and if you're not careful present a very juicy target to your opponent. Against the AI its not an issue as I don't think its capable of analyzing what's going on and organizing a counter attack. Against another human player is another story.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 4:21:52 PM

freeboy

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right, I am talking reasonable amounts and managingthem, lots of support and supplies.. but the fear of using troops seems overblown..
In pbem, take what you can... and there really are three different, four? seasons of big campaign each affecting what each side does... let me digress, the first is total jap dominance, as Jap you pretty much do what you want and look for a fight.. then its paraty and turning of the tide as the massive amounts of new units planes ships come in, then US dominance followed by us dominance with Kamikazi's..
Now how is this relevent you ask?
Exactly, this issue of what to take the sand hills in the ocean we call atols with is dependant on which stage you are in and which side! If it total US domination,dcertainly mid 43 on, the allies should be able to add enough supporting types. land and sea as to pretty much diregard, within reason the 6k figure... I am not talking about 100k worth of troops staging from these places, just no need t obe rigid about the 6k is all... reember they are not efficient for loading unloading and basing prety much anything..

Hope you find this relevant.. and good luck sorting out WHICH Allied units to use...

or if Jap player... when to fold the tents and hunker down for the inevatable

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 4:36:42 PM

sfbaytf

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Its June 1944 and while I have the advantage, I don't have complete domination. My opponent has preserved most of the Imperial Fleet and is hoarding LBA for a massive alpha strike. We're playing 2 day turns, so he is still more than capable of doing some serious damage by sneaking out and striking.

My opponent is also defending with the advantage of interior lines of communications. As I advance my lines of communications gets longer, while his gets shorter.

I have numerical superiority, but cannot be everywhere at once. If I get careless I could get wacked and lose alot of valuable stuff.

The way our particular war has played out, its not really necessary for me to be invading some of these atolls, but I figure I may as well take the time to make the mistakes now and learn and how to do it right. Never know when you're going to be forced to do so and that won't be the time to be learning and making mistakes.

We have no house rules so anything goes, but they could very well come a time when hose rules will be involved and then massive overstacking and piling up mounds of supplies on an atoll won't be allowed.

IRL the bloodiest days for the allieds occured when they possesses overwhelming superiority in terms of quantity and quality. We'll see how it goes in AE, but I do know my opponent is going to try and extract as much blood as possible. I don't expect him to finish the game with his fleet afloat and aircraft fleet intact.

Like taking on a wounded animal....

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 1/29/2010 5:08:18 PM >

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:02:02 PM

Brady

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is almost . . . Zen-like.

It was vauge, but given to me the problem is so obvious, perhaps not.

The problem is that while the intent behind the stcking limit is a very well thought out and well intended one. In practice it does not work very well.

The idea is that the stacking limt is to aply to both sides, but in practice a player can disgorge a freaking huge amount of men and overwhealm the garasion before the efects of that stacking limit take efect, and then remove those troops and replace them with a more size aproparate force. (or just take off some of the excess.)

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:13:35 PM

sfbaytf

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I agree things could be done in a "gamey" matter, but I haven't attempted any really outrageous thing like a 3 div assault on an atoll. SO I don;t know how messy that would be.

1 div plus 3 suppporting units (ENG, ARM, ART) is the max I've tried. I figure that would be pretty reasonable. IIRC the US invaded Kwajealean with 1 division and 2 additional regiments and a regiment of marines.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is almost . . . Zen-like.

It was vauge, but given to me the problem is so obvious, perhaps not.

The problem is that while the intent behind the stcking limit is a very well thought out and well intended one. In practice it does not work very well.

The idea is that the stacking limt is to aply to both sides, but in practice a player can disgorge a freaking huge amount of men and overwhealm the garasion before the efects of that stacking limit take efect, and then remove those troops and replace them with a more size aproparate force. (or just take off some of the excess.)

(in reply to Brady)

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:18:25 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

This is almost . . . Zen-like.

It was vauge, but given to me the problem is so obvious, perhaps not.

The problem is that while the intent behind the stcking limit is a very well thought out and well intended one. In practice it does not work very well.

The idea is that the stacking limt is to aply to both sides, but in practice a player can disgorge a freaking huge amount of men and overwhealm the garasion before the efects of that stacking limit take efect, and then remove those troops and replace them with a more size aproparate force. (or just take off some of the excess.)

Ah. I had not gotten that point.

This is what I've been discussing in the thread I started on the CD system. Even with "good" CD performance the attacker can overwhelm any island if he's willing to invest in hundreds of simultaneously-unloading transports. The advantage is always with the attacker under stacking penalties, but CD damage can slow down even a large TF, but, to JWE's point about algorithm boundry conditions, not really a huge transport TF.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:23:12 PM

John Lansford

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I wouldn't mess with the CentPac atolls until the other side's CV's have been neutralized. Unless you want to station your CV's off the atoll until all your supplies and support have unloaded (risking sub attack) to protect them, you've got to work under LBA cover and there's nowhere to do that in CentPac at the start (for the allies).

Also, don't build up a lot of CentPac bases into big airbases as the Japanese. Unless you want to heavily defend every one of them, you're just creating a base for the Allies to swoop in and start using right away. Having 2-3 mutually supporting airbases is ideal, since the Allies would then have to worry not only about surface/CV TF attacks, but constant LBA raids on their TF's and ground units.

As the Allies, I wouldn't move onto the CentPac bases unless I had a strong covering force for the amphibious TF's, in addition to at least 2 CV's providing aircover. The atolls were taken with division strength assaults, so IRL the planners didn't worry too much about overstacking either, at least at first. I retook Canton from the AI with a reinforced 2 regiment assault, then loaded the two regiments back on board ships after unloading a support and defense unit there.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:29:57 PM

Q-Ball

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Brady is right, the changes in AE have made Atolls easier to assualt overall. The stacking rules favor the attacker. The Marshalls become extra-vulnerable for the Empire.

On the flip-side though, those same rules make the bases less useful; with stacking rules, much harder to develop it into a major base or bomber platform.

The other break on Allied rampage is that I would highly recommend you DONT land on atoll unless you are 100% prepped!

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:42:34 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Brady is right, the changes in AE have made Atolls easier to assualt overall. The stacking rules favor the attacker. The Marshalls become extra-vulnerable for the Empire.

On the flip-side though, those same rules make the bases less useful; with stacking rules, much harder to develop it into a major base or bomber platform.

The other break on Allied rampage is that I would highly recommend you DONT land on atoll unless you are 100% prepped!

I echo your last. My 2nd Marine Division has never recovered from Tarawa.

Re the Gilberts/Marshalls, at first I was interested in "greening up" the entire eastern map. I took Canton and Baker back, took Tarawa on the second try, took Makin, and was prepared to march north and clean house, until I ran into the buzzsaw at Wotje (described in another thread.) I made a half-hearted stab at Jaluit and found a CD nest there too, which made me ask myself why I was bothering? I grabbed Kwajalein and stopped. LBA-bombed every red island out of planes and supplies, and forgot about them. The AI tried to re-suppply Roi-Namur twice before it stopped. (Got those with PTs from Kwaj.) For nearly a year now those bases have sat there full of garrison troops slowly starving. My ships wave as they cruise by headed for Eniwetok (which is worth having for a variety of reasons.)

Some good lessons for my second game.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 6:50:48 PM

sfbaytf

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Look at the bright side- at least you took Tarawa. I invaded Tarawa with 1 marine regiment and 1 eng regiment. My opponent had 9000 troops. The initial shock attack wiped out the Marine regiment and the next turn I began the long process of re-embarking the invasion force.

Thank god he didn't counter attack.

He still holds Tarawa...he mentioned he could have easily garrisoned it with more troops, but keeping the place resupplied was a pain in the butt...

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 1/29/2010 6:52:52 PM >

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 7:02:00 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Look at the bright side- at least you took Tarawa. I invaded Tarawa with 1 marine regiment and 1 eng regiment. My opponent had 9000 troops. The initial shock attack wiped out the Marine regiment and the next turn I began the long process of re-embarking the invasion force.

Thank god he didn't counter attack.

He still holds Tarawa...he mentioned he could have easily garrisoned it with more troops, but keeping the place resupplied was a pain in the butt...

My first try at Tarawa I did about what you describe (with a division instead of a regiment), plus was only about 50% prepped (maybe low-40s; it's been awhile now.) I got thrown off. It was my first real amphib op of the game, and I found out I wasn't in WITP anymore.

My second, successful try ended with me having something like 47,000 total troops on the island. It wasn't possible to unload supplies fast enough to get past zero. Getting them off and back to PH took a long time, and Tarawa was essentially worthless and vulnerable that whole time. The AI doesn't pounce, but a human might, unless you tie up your carriers there, replenishing them the whole time.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 7:18:29 PM

wpurdom

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I'm not sure I understand Brady's complaint. It seems that the design pretty effectively prevents defending an atoll with a division and allows attack with one with full preparation, at least after you have APA's and AKA's, which corresponds to RL. I'm not sure why an Allied player would want to commit much more than a division with some tanks to a landing, and thereby tying up the extra forces for four months. Is there really a good reason to attack with 3 divisions, and does such an attack save much in Allied casualties? I haven't tried it.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/29/2010 11:55:52 PM

Nomad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Look at the bright side- at least you took Tarawa. I invaded Tarawa with 1 marine regiment and 1 eng regiment. My opponent had 9000 troops. The initial shock attack wiped out the Marine regiment and the next turn I began the long process of re-embarking the invasion force.

Thank god he didn't counter attack.

He still holds Tarawa...he mentioned he could have easily garrisoned it with more troops, but keeping the place resupplied was a pain in the butt...

Tarawa is a small island with a limit of 30,000 troops. It shouldn't be that hard to supply 9000.

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RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/30/2010 3:33:05 AM

sfbaytf

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I sure wished I had did my intel homework better and realized the 30,000 stacking limit. Would have saved me some grief. For some reason it was stuck in my head that it was a very tiny place. In any case my error and I paid the price.

Don't know why my opponent decided that it was a pain to re-supply. Only he really knows. Mabye the fact I've been conducting "pirate" raids on his merchants throughout the war had some influence.

Perhaps Tarawa isn't that important to him in the overall scheme of things.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Nomad

quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

Look at the bright side- at least you took Tarawa. I invaded Tarawa with 1 marine regiment and 1 eng regiment. My opponent had 9000 troops. The initial shock attack wiped out the Marine regiment and the next turn I began the long process of re-embarking the invasion force.

Thank god he didn't counter attack.

He still holds Tarawa...he mentioned he could have easily garrisoned it with more troops, but keeping the place resupplied was a pain in the butt...

Tarawa is a small island with a limit of 30,000 troops. It shouldn't be that hard to supply 9000.

< Message edited by sfbaytf -- 1/30/2010 4:42:54 AM >

(in reply to Nomad)

Post #: 26

RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/30/2010 5:10:40 AM

BLurking

Posts: 199
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From: Frisco, TX
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Keeping them with some supplies isn't and wasn't a problem - but full operational tempo requires constant attention, and let's face it - the place is out of the way for the Empire. Once we got into '44, I ceased to care so much - and certainly didn't want to commit 30K troops to a base that you'd probably bypass anyway.

I'd rather put them where you're sure to run into them

...

(in reply to sfbaytf)

Post #: 27

RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/30/2010 6:20:17 AM

Nomad

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All I was saying is that 9000 troops on Tarawa would not be over stacking so no extra supply was needed to overcome the over stacking. As to any other considerations, that would be game and/or opponent specific.

_____________________________

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Post #: 28

RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 1/30/2010 7:18:51 AM

sfbaytf

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Yes indeed the war has bypassed Tarawa, but it won't go to waste. The allieds will send an experimential invasion force to test some theories on the best ways to invade the strongholds of the empire.

The recent successes in the Marshalls was more than likely due to fact the Empire has lost interest in them, the allieds will conceed that fact-of course the public will be told a different story. Nevertheless valuable experience was gained.

The goal of the allieds is to invade the Empires Homeland and bring the war to an end without using atomic weapons.

A lofty goal, but one that the allieds believe can be achived.

(in reply to BLurking)

Post #: 29

RE: Invading Atolls can be tricky with New Stacking Limits - 2/5/2010 10:31:23 AM

byron13

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quote:

ORIGINAL: sfbaytf

I sure wished I had did my intel homework better and realized the 30,000 stacking limit. Would have saved me some grief. For some reason it was stuck in my head that it was a very tiny place. In any case my error and I paid the price.

Could be because the rules state that atolls written on the map in yellow are very small (6,000 capacity) . . . and Tarawa is written in yellow. Been there, done that.

(in reply to sfbaytf)

Post #: 30