Slitherine

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I agree that ASW ships should be hard to hit, unless they got sloppy in their watchstanding or predictable in their routes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jackyo123

quote:

ORIGINAL: Smeulders

A quick look doesn't really show higher experience levels for Japanese sub crews in scenario two, in both scenarios they are mainly in the 50s, with somewhat lower exp for the SST.

its not their sub crews - its their captains! I find their subs prosecute about the same as the allies do, when asw is not a factor.

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'd just like to say that my ASW efforts to date have not worked at all. Allocating air assets, SC hunting groups, DD and PB escorted convoys, changing captains to more aggressive and skilled, has done squat for me on the Japanese side. I've only 5 confirmed kills of Allied submarines up to Feb. 1st, 42. On the other hand, I've lost roughly 40 ships now to Allied subs. Every game, for whatever reason, seems to have different experiences. It seems in my PBEM, the Allies have the uber subs. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the Japanese subs, because mine can't find anything.

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

I agree that ASW ships should be hard to hit, unless they got sloppy in their watchstanding or predictable in their routes.

A little OT - it was well done with respect to the suddenness and overwhelming nature of the damage - do you remember the scene in the movie The Cruel Sea where the Compass Rose (IIRC) was torpedoed and sank?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'd just like to say that my ASW efforts to date have not worked at all. Allocating air assets, SC hunting groups, DD and PB escorted convoys, changing captains to more aggressive and skilled, has done squat for me on the Japanese side. I've only 5 confirmed kills of Allied submarines up to Feb. 1st, 42. On the other hand, I've lost roughly 40 ships now to Allied subs. Every game, for whatever reason, seems to have different experiences. It seems in my PBEM, the Allies have the uber subs. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the Japanese subs, because mine can't find anything.

If you have five kills by Feb. 1942 you're way ahead of history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'd just like to say that my ASW efforts to date have not worked at all. Allocating air assets, SC hunting groups, DD and PB escorted convoys, changing captains to more aggressive and skilled, has done squat for me on the Japanese side. I've only 5 confirmed kills of Allied submarines up to Feb. 1st, 42. On the other hand, I've lost roughly 40 ships now to Allied subs. Every game, for whatever reason, seems to have different experiences. It seems in my PBEM, the Allies have the uber subs. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the Japanese subs, because mine can't find anything.

If you have five kills by Feb. 1942 you're way ahead of history.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

December 7 through Febuary 1 is not 3 months, not even a full two months.

5 subs sunk in less than 2 months compared to 4 sunk historicaly.
Not way ahead of history, but ahead none the less.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

In lieu of the fact that there does not seem to be any chance of actually forcing a sub to he surface in combat.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'd just like to say that my ASW efforts to date have not worked at all. Allocating air assets, SC hunting groups, DD and PB escorted convoys, changing captains to more aggressive and skilled, has done squat for me on the Japanese side. I've only 5 confirmed kills of Allied submarines up to Feb. 1st, 42. On the other hand, I've lost roughly 40 ships now to Allied subs. Every game, for whatever reason, seems to have different experiences. It seems in my PBEM, the Allies have the uber subs. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the Japanese subs, because mine can't find anything.

If you have five kills by Feb. 1942 you're way ahead of history.

Oh really? During the first three months of the real war japanese destroyed 6 allied submarines.

December -41:
K XVI (Japanese submarine)
O-20 (destroyers)
SS Sealion (damaged by bombing, later scuttled)

January -42:
K XVIII (badly damaged by destroyers, scuttled)

February -42:
K VII (land-based bombers while in harbor)
SS Shark (destroyers)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

December 7 through Febuary 1 is not 3 months, not even a full two months.

5 subs sunk in less than 2 months compared to 4 sunk historicaly.
Not way ahead of history, but ahead none the less.

My mistake, but that's not the point anyway. Of cource we cannot really expect to get exact "historical" results (I hate that word when we play game). During the first months of the war japanese destroyed submarines, even though their ASW was not good. Some people seem to forget that.

Like I said earlier, in my game japanese ASW have been useless so far (8/1942). So some say that japanese ASW is too good, some say it's about right and some say it's very bad. So I guess it's about right then.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: SqzMyLemon

I'd just like to say that my ASW efforts to date have not worked at all. Allocating air assets, SC hunting groups, DD and PB escorted convoys, changing captains to more aggressive and skilled, has done squat for me on the Japanese side. I've only 5 confirmed kills of Allied submarines up to Feb. 1st, 42. On the other hand, I've lost roughly 40 ships now to Allied subs. Every game, for whatever reason, seems to have different experiences. It seems in my PBEM, the Allies have the uber subs. I can't speak for the effectiveness of the Japanese subs, because mine can't find anything.

If you have five kills by Feb. 1942 you're way ahead of history.

Oh really? During the first three months of the real war japanese destroyed 6 allied submarines.

December -41:
K XVI (Japanese submarine)
O-20 (destroyers)
SS Sealion (damaged by bombing, later scuttled)

January -42:
K XVIII (badly damaged by destroyers, scuttled)

February -42:
K VII (land-based bombers while in harbor)
SS Shark (destroyers)

As above, not the same time line, plus, two of these were bombed. Your point originally I thought related to ineffective ASW efforts. While bombing a docked submarine is, I suppose, literally "anti submarine", it's not what is normally considered ASW operations.

Also, I hadn't included Dutch losses. I'm a USN sub fanboy.

quote:

1 Sealion Richard G. Voge 12/10/41 Cavite, P. I. (1)
2 S - 36 John R. McKnight Jr 1/20/42 Straits of Makassar (3)
3 S - 26 Earle C. Hawk 1/24/42 Gulf of Panama (4)
4 Shark Louis Shane Jr ∆ 2/11/42 Molucca Sea (2)
5 Perch David A. Hurt 3/3/42 Java Sea (2)
6 S - 27 Herbert L. Jukes 6/19/42 Amchitka I., Aleutians (3)
7 Grunion Mannert L. Able ∆ 7/8/42 Aleutian waters (8)
8 S - 39 Francis E. Brown 8/16/42 Rossell I., SW Pacific (3)
9 Argonaut John R. Pierce 1/10/43 Off New Britain (2)
10 Amberjack John A. Bole ∆ 2/16/43 Off New Britain (1)(2)
11 Grampus John R. Craig ∆ 3/5/43 Off New Britain (2)
12 Triton George McKenzie Jr ∆ 3/15/43 Admiralty Islands (2)
13 Pickerel August H. Alston Jr. ∆ 4/3/43 Japanese home waters (2)
14 Grenadier John A. Fitzgerald 4/22/43 Malayan waters (1)
15 Runner Joseph H. Bourland ∆ 5/43 Japanese home waters (5)
16 R-12 Edward Shelby 6/12/43 Off Key West, Fla. (4)
17 Grayling Robert M. Brinker ∆ 9/12/43 Philippine waters (8)
18 Pompano Willis M. Thomas ∆ 9/27/43 Japanese home waters (5)
19 Cisco James W. Coe ∆ 9/28/43 South Pacific Ocean (1)(2)
20 S-44 Francis E. Brown ∆ 10/7/43 Kurile Islands (2)
21 Wahoo Dudley W. Morton ∆ 10/11/43 Japanese home waters (1)
22 Dorado Earle C. Schneider ∆ 10/12/43 Canal Zone, Panama (1*)
23 Corvina Roderick S. Rooney ∆ 11/16/43 Marshall Islands (6)
24 Sculpin Fred Connaway ∆ 11/19/43 Gilbert Islands (2)
25 Capelin Elliott E. Marshall ∆ 12/9/43 Celebes Sea (2)
26 Scorpion Maximilian G Schmidt ∆ 2/24/44 East China Sea (5)
27 Grayback John A. Moore ∆ 2/26/44 Ryukyu Islands (1)(2)
28 Trout Albert H. Clark ∆ 2/29/44 Ryukyu Islands (2)
29 Tullibee Charles F. Brindupke ∆ 3/26/44 Off Palau Island (7)
30 Gudgeon Robert A. Bonin ∆ 5/11/44 Marianas Islands (1)(2)
31 Herring David Zabriske Jr.∆ 6/1/44 Kurile Islands (2)
32 Golet James S. Clark 6/14/44 Japanese home waters (2)
33 S-28 J.G. Campbell ∆ 7/4/44 Off Oahu, T. H. (4)
34 Robalo Manning M. Kimmel ∆ 7/26/44 Off Borneo (5)
35 Flier John D. Crowley ∆ 8/13/44 Off Borneo (5)
36 Harder Samuel D. Dealey ∆ 8/24/44 Philippine waters (2)
37 Seawolf Albert M. Bontier ∆ 10/3/44 Off Morotai I., N.E.I. (2*)
38 Darter David H. McClintock 10/24/44 Palawan Passage, P.I. (3)
39 Shark II Edward N. Blakely ∆ 10/24/44 Luzon Strait (2)
40 Tang Richard H. O'Kane 10/24/44 Formosa Strait (7)
41 Escolar William J. Millican ∆ 10/17/44 Tsushima Strait (5)
42 Albacore Hugh R. Rimmer ∆ 11/7/44 Japanese home waters (5)
43 Growler Thomas B. Oakley Jr ∆ 11/8/44 Philippine waters (8)
44 Scamp John Hollingsworth ∆ 11/11/44 Japanese home waters (1)(2)
45 Swordfish Keats E. Montross ∆ 1/12/45 Ryukyu Islands (2)(5)
46 Barbel Conde L. Raguet ∆ 2/4/45 Palawan (1)
47 Kete Edward Ackerman ∆ 3/20/45 Ryukyu Islands (8)
48 Trigger David R. Connole ∆ 3/28/45 Ryukyu Islands (1)(2)
49 Snook John F. Walling ∆ 4/8/45 Hainan I.,S0.China Sea (8)
50 Lagarto Frank D. Latta ∆ 5/3/45 South China Sea (1)
51 Bonefish Lawrence L. Edge ∆ 1/18/45 Japanese home waters (2)
52 Bullhead Edward R. Holt ∆ 8/6/45 Java Sea (1)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

German U-Boats sank approximately 15,000 tons of Allied Shipping per sub lost during the War.

US Subs sank approximately 122,000 tons of Japanese Shipping per sub lost during the War....,
even with lousy torpedoes.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

Japanese ASW was pitifully inadequate to it's task..., and is totally overrated in the game.

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron Saueracker

In lieu of the fact that there does not seem to be any chance of actually forcing a sub to he surface in combat.



Oh, this one does happen!

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Puhis

Apparently some people are playing ahistorical scenario 2, where Japan gets about 100(?) extra destroyers or other ASW vessels, and then they are complaining japanese ASW...