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Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 4:32:42 PM

undercovergeek

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Looking at testing this against the AI but just wanted to know what you guys thought - the Japanese, primarily want to take Singapore, Manilla, Soerbaja, Balikpapn, Palembang, Miri asap - even if you owned most of Java youd still want the central hub of Soerbaja and the same for Sumatra and Palembang - so on turn 1 i land at Mersing with everything for Singapore cross the peninsular and take Malacca to cut the supply line and then attack Singapore within a few days - land at Miri, and then load all the other divisions into 1 TF and drop them off at Palembang, then Soerbaja and then finish at Balikpapan - all doable in a number of days - and then in the 2nd wave bring in the support troops and garrison units - so within maybe 2 weeks i have essentially everything i came for and then can fan out into sumatra, java and start clearing up Malaya from the bottom and not the top

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 4:42:47 PM

Marty A

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Depends on ally strategy. as japan i rarely take any of the oil fields until last. means stay out of miri palembang balikapan. why? because once you own ally can bomb. if he own can not bomb. singapore yes you want 5 or more division assault. but i take java before any of the other oil cities. my style.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 4:45:36 PM

vlcz

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I tried the mersing variation and it was a big success for me, paired with a first turn invasion in singkawang to establish a topedo airbase ASAP, also done the miri, and balikpapan early invasions (pairedx with kendari and Ambon), but palembang AND soerabaja looks too much a bite (in the end did take palembang before singers anyway...)

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 4:46:45 PM

findmeifyoucan

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Good luck with that. Assuming the Allies sit on their asses with their surface fleets and in ports not opposing you on anything sure that is achievable. LOL Oh and also assuming the Allies do not mine Singapore at all to make sure you cannot assault it from the sea as it will take at least a month to walk through Malasia to get to Singapore with a reasonable and realistic amount of resistance.

Was this a dream you had last night or something? :-)))

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 4:54:10 PM

Marty A

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Sounds to me like you have never played the game findmeifyoucan. singapore starts mined and landing at mersing on turn 1 is possible without a lot of effort although a decent ally will at least hurt it. japan can be in singapore in force in a few days.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 5:08:04 PM

findmeifyoucan

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Actually lots as the Allies. New as Japanese and only tried once to assual Singapore and it wasn't nice. I was looking at all your objectives stated not just Singapore. I look at the hole picture when I play the game. :-)

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 5:11:49 PM

Mynok

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You aren't going to successfully prosecute a Mersing invasion that early against a human. Your planes cannot cover that far south.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 5:32:30 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

You aren't going to successfully prosecute a Mersing invasion that early against a human. Your planes cannot cover that far south.

It might be interesting if KB was present to support the invasion. Without KB's aircover and defensive shield I agree that it would be inadvisable.

Which is another reason that I'd recommend blasting Manila to kingdom come with KB and LBA on turn one. Forget about Pearl Harbor, sink those treacherous allied subs while you can! Then KB can support a turn 4-5 invasion of southern Malay.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 6:06:10 PM

topeverest

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As primarily an allied player, I would offer a couple points.
1. An experienced Allied player will be able to subvert your Malaya strategy to the point where you gain nothing material over a traditional approach. You also stand to lose more naval and air assets. That said, an inexperienced or unlucky opponent could fall for the strategy. I would ask you what does taking the peninsula a few weeks earlier really get you given your committement risk.
2. Most allied players will try to evacuate as much supply and fuel from Batavia and Soerabaya with some removed from each of the other major centers. This island is by far the best defended. An experienced allied player can and will thwart any small attack on that island. He or she also can make a major naval and air battle happen. If the Japs go in too early without sufficent air and naval forces, it is a recipie for disaster. For this reason, I would reccomend bagging the borneo assets and getting a major airbase within range to attrite the air and naval forces there prior to an invasion.
3. I agree Palembang is ripe for quick capture assuming you knock down the airpower at Singapore.

In closing, let me offer that such a strategy is very aggressive. Certainly it can work, but it does also open the Jap player up to incremental losses and the potenetial for a major defeat that does not exist with a more traditional approach.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 6:24:34 PM

Q-Ball

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Mynok is correct in that LBA won't reach that far, exposing you to Vildebeest and Swordfish attack. Without aircover, those planes are dangerous, and though you will get ashiore, you can expect losses. They have enough oomph to take down a Kongo, and you don't need that kind of loss.

You also can't do it unless Force Z is neutralized. If you are landing at Mersing turn 1, you are probably allowing your opponent to move Force Z out of harms' way.

I think a landing after the first week or two is highly adviseable. You can aircover from Khota Bharu by then, or using Baby KB. You can set up a torpedo-capable base at Singkawang to keep Force Z away. You can use reinforcment units that are not in the first wave. The only problem with this is that a competent Allied player will know this, and move all the Aussie units to Mersing turn one to guard against this. Pretty much ends that plan.

Malaya is a big problem for Japan, because 2 Bns can keep you out of Singapore until January; just enough to guard against Paras, and make you walk down the peninsula.

One thing I would advocate as a MUST: Set up some sort of torp-capable base at Singkawang or Kuching the first week, and put some Netties there. You need to close the port, and that sealane to Allied shipping.

RE: MANILA STRIKE: Chickenboy raises an old debate; should KB strike Manila turn one? I can see the arguments, but I am against it personally. For many reasons.

First, the targets are better at Pearl. At Manila, you sink alot of subs, but that's the only real target, the rest are ships the Allies can afford to lose. At Pearl, you can sink BBs, or at least put them in the shop so long you won't see them the first year of the war. I have read "forget BB's, too hard to supply/fuel", but I think that's bunk. The Allies have gobs of fuel, plenty of tankers, lots of AKE conversions, with a little advanced planning you can keep those babies sailing. I also think in AE, BBs are MORE valuable than WITP, not less. Why? They are harder to kill. Bombs don't work, and LBA in general is less of a threat to shipping. This makes control of water around targets imperitive, and BBs are the ultimate aribiter of that control.

Second, is what you do with KB afterwards. You don't need KB to advance in the SRA; you need surface combattants, and you need the IJN LBA, but not Carriers. You need to think and plan ahead to get torp-capable bases set up; once those are set-up, you now effectively control all water within 12 hexes (Zero escort range). KB is better spent countering the USN CVs. If you want to take Rabaul or PM early, which I advise, you need carrier support. The thing is you don't need ALL your CVs; split a couple off and send those to the SRA if you want to. This is the only point in the game as Japan I would split CVs, but the first two months there is minimal risk to doing so. Even worse, in the SRA the Allies will always know where KB is, which means they have freedom of action elsewhere to do what they want. That can mean convoys getting reinforcements out, it can mean USN CVs hitting your Rabaul invasion forces, it can mean many things, all of them bad for you.

The KB in the SRA will spend alot of time LRCAP and hitting land targets, both of which are a complete waste, because with a little planning that job can easily be done by your LBA.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/1/2010 6:34:53 PM >

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 7:22:30 PM

findmeifyoucan

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Very well put Q-Ball! I cannot disagree with any of your points. I would only add that hitting Pearl also does a nice number in Pearl's Air base not only damaging it severely but killing a number of aircraft that you won't see later thus slowing the Americans down. Otherwise hitting Manila instead means you will see all those aircraft not taken out at Pearl showing up in Central Pacific in a couple of weeks.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 9:21:18 PM

Mynok

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I've been studying the Malaya problem intermittently both in game and via AARs. It's really much more difficult to cut off the Malaya troops from Singapore now. I'm pondering an armored thrust from Khota Baru down to Malacca but the units available to do that are pretty insignificant. Not sure it can be done against the available defenders. An infantry thrust just doesn't seem to be fast enough over the secondary rail connection.

There aren't enough paratroops to make a difference either.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 9:32:39 PM

Chickenboy

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RE: the Manila gambit:

Q-ball: It's an oldie but a goodie. I'm not convinced of the primacy of the PH attack in AE.

You're effectively trading ~20-25 dead allied subs, a bunch of auxiliaries and a likely bag of a CA (Houston) for (average) 2 sunk prewar BBs and (average) 4 heavily damaged prewar BBs. Those 20-25 dead allied subs are going to put a much greater proportional hurt on my transport of resources in 1943-1945 than the 2 killed allied BBs will.

With the IJN submarine lethality being unrestrained because of doctrine 'adjustments', I believe that I'll have an opportunity to put a few TTs into an old, slow prewar allied BB sooner or later. A couple of 53cm fish will put one of these BBs into the yards for months too, just as easily as a very expensive (and, I argue superfluous) air raid over Pearl Harbor.

It would be a foolish IJN admiral that would squander KB's aircraft attacking predominantly land targets. The most effective implementation in the DEI is port attacking Manila and then extending the favor to Soerbaja and / or Batavia in short order. Singapore and Hong Kong would have to be cleared by the allies tootsweet, lest they be charnal houses for the RN / ABDA navies. Thus, an early Mersing landing becomes quite feasible under LRCAP from large numbers of IJN aircraft between days 4-5.

There are other opportunities that are present that I cannot comment on at this time.

KB's presence ensures that slower RN ships will flee (unless suicidally inclined), diminishing the effect of those nasty surface SCTF intercepts in the confined waters of the DEI. For those hyperaggressive Allied admirals that move Enterprise and Lexington WEST on December 8 into the DEI, the KB will deter this provocative action. The presence of KB could enable earlier landings anywhere in the DEI by supporting the landings.

About the only regret I have at not nailing Pearl is the gobs of P40s, B17s and PBYs that I didn't destroy. These make a nice pile of replacement aircraft that I'll have to fight my way through with LBA. In this sense I agree with findmeifyoucan.

In general, I think the Manila port option is an underrated and underappreciated consideration. I brought the topic up not so much for the debate of its merits, but so that the OP can broaden his strategic horizons a bit. That's a great thing about this game. Thinking outside of the box and trying to do things differently.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 9:38:26 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok

I've been studying the Malaya problem intermittently both in game and via AARs. It's really much more difficult to cut off the Malaya troops from Singapore now. I'm pondering an armored thrust from Khota Baru down to Malacca but the units available to do that are pretty insignificant. Not sure it can be done against the available defenders. An infantry thrust just doesn't seem to be fast enough over the secondary rail connection.

There aren't enough paratroops to make a difference either.

Gobs of IJA LBA and air support at Jahore Bahuru and Alor Star will help quite a bit with this. The new 'movement model' of AE ensures high casualties on allied troop movements that are unfortunate enough to be caught under movement orders or, worse, strategic movement. They who hesitate will truly be lost.

If the allies don't start falling back day 1, they will have large numbers of troops killed or disrupted by LBA or manuevering LCUs. The Western road from Alor Star south is a great place for your armored assault units to move with rail movement from anywhere in Malay. Things slow a bit near the Southern tip of the peninsula, but effecting a Singapore defeat in January is still quite realistic.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/1/2010 11:21:06 PM

vlcz

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Can not agree with q-ball this time, Mersing can be covered , khota is taked easily with only the fist wave, and singkawang at the same time with some other (*) fleet, and you can cover mersing from both bases quite well. Done against human, and very useful specially if he is taking a Sir Robin.

< Message edited by vlcz -- 2/1/2010 11:27:29 PM >

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 2:39:12 PM

Mynok

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The only aircraft which can cover are Oscars and there are only a couple groups of those. That isn't enough against a competent human who is determined to resist your landings.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 3:02:55 PM

vlcz

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
The only aircraft which can cover are Oscars and there are only a couple groups of those. That isn't enough against a competent human who is determined to resist your landings.

And zeros, you got zeros too, and they can reach within two days quite easily both bases..

I will not enter in definitions of "competence", and of course can "assure" this (or any other) opening being a "war-winner" by itself (thankfully), every opening/strategy can be countered, but this is a real posible one and quite doable (if that word really exist in english...

)

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 3:24:25 PM

nashvillen

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As a noob jap fanboy I am finding that you can surprise an opponent who is used to the AI with some off the wall and strange uses of both the KB and the Baby KB. Also, if you are willing to risk them, some aggressive use of your transports can lead to some exploitations of holes in the alliance defense.

I have sunk two CVs, 10 BBs, and either seriously damaged or sunk another CV in my game which is just starting FEB 42. My biggest problem so far is getting factories to retool and moving resources/oil around! I am sure my opponet, who is a most cabable gamer, will give me more issues to deal with as the war goes on.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 3:27:39 PM

Ketza

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I always looked at the Manila strat in this way.

On the low end of the potential of the american subs at Manila lets say that on average over the course of the war each one of those subs sinks 5 ships per year. Thats 125 ships per year those subs could sink or some 500+ merchant ships over the course of the war after accounting for some of the allied subs being sunk.

That vrs sinking/damaging some old BBs and 100 or so extra allied planes on turn one.

A strategic blow vrs a tactical blow.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 4:33:50 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz

quote:

ORIGINAL: Mynok
The only aircraft which can cover are Oscars and there are only a couple groups of those. That isn't enough against a competent human who is determined to resist your landings.

And zeros, you got zeros too, and they can reach within two days quite easily both bases..

Sure but then you have to provide carrier cover for your Celebes and eastern Borneo operations. There aren't enough Zeros to do both plus put down the Philippines air force.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 4:45:25 PM

sven6345789

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you will bag the whole area anyhow. No matter if you come from the north or land down at Mersing. The Mersing operation might cause you more losses though. I consider that any ship you do not need to loose is one ship to many, at least for the japanese.
Historically, the japanese always advanced under LBA cover. I would advice to follow that strategy. KB can be helpful, but there is the risk of taking damage to your carriers (subs, for instance).
Since a steady advance will lead to the same results, there is no need for a all or nothing tactic regarding malaya and the SRA. You should save that for the second operational phase, regarding targets like Oz, New Caledonia, Fiji, or India.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 6:12:57 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz

Can not agree with q-ball this time, Mersing can be covered , khota is taked easily with only the fist wave, and singkawang at the same time with some other (*) fleet, and you can cover mersing from both bases quite well. Done against human, and very useful specially if he is taking a Sir Robin.

Understood, but the original question was a landing on Mersing TURN 1. Can't be done under aircover, and in fact on Dec 8th they will still be pretty exposed, to both torp planes and Force Z. No, a landing at Mersing the first few days is not feasible.

It is once you get Singkawang and bases further up the coast, which is week 2. I said that it was a good idea once that happens, but it depends on catching your opponent napping. A good opponent will move all the Australians to Mersing, negating this. If the Allies are evacuating Malaya, you definitely want to have a Mersing landing ready.

Malaya is a problem for Japan. The more I look at it, the more I think the best Allied strategy is to move everyone to Singapore, leave a couple small units to just hold up the Japanese columns and guard against paras. You can either stand in Singapore or evacuate, but either way, no reason to resist north of Singapore, other than Mersing.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/2/2010 8:03:03 PM

khyberbill

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My opponent hit Mersing after a few turns and could have taken it the first turn if he had chosen to; then he isolated Singapore. However, his whole strategy is to take SRA/DEI/Malaya as quickly as possible and so all of his carriers were also sent there except for one group that attacked Sydney. I did manage to get POW out as well as a few CA and that was about it.

I might add that PH and Manila were not hit and I have much better air assets than is normal at an early stage of the game, plus all those lovely subs at Manila that really wont be effective for a year but then their presence will be felt. I would rather have those planes, the subs and the entire BB fleet at PH intact than all the little freighters that got sunk fleeing Soerabaja, Singers etc.

The torpedo bombers out of Singers did got a few licks in but also were hurt bad by CAP from the CV's. I got fragments of all the Indian forces out of Malaya so those will be rebuilt. It was awful watching all the airstrikes on fleeing ship as well as those in port for a few weeks straight but now it is nice not having any BB's in port repairing for 795 days as well! All in all, I guess this approach has a lot of action but I think I am better off now than from a more traditional attack on Pearl.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 1:09:36 PM

undercovergeek

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

quote:

ORIGINAL: vlcz

Can not agree with q-ball this time, Mersing can be covered , khota is taked easily with only the fist wave, and singkawang at the same time with some other (*) fleet, and you can cover mersing from both bases quite well. Done against human, and very useful specially if he is taking a Sir Robin.

Understood, but the original question was a landing on Mersing TURN 1. Can't be done under aircover, and in fact on Dec 8th they will still be pretty exposed, to both torp planes and Force Z. No, a landing at Mersing the first few days is not feasible.

It is once you get Singkawang and bases further up the coast, which is week 2. I said that it was a good idea once that happens, but it depends on catching your opponent napping. A good opponent will move all the Australians to Mersing, negating this. If the Allies are evacuating Malaya, you definitely want to have a Mersing landing ready.

Malaya is a problem for Japan. The more I look at it, the more I think the best Allied strategy is to move everyone to Singapore, leave a couple small units to just hold up the Japanese columns and guard against paras. You can either stand in Singapore or evacuate, but either way, no reason to resist north of Singapore, other than Mersing.

yeah, sorry i missed out an important bit - take Kuantan turn 1 - be offshore at Mersing and then unload turn 2 capped from kuantan with a pile of engineers to make this a decent airbase - i need to try against AI because i dont know whether the initial Singapore invasion force without the Imp Guards is enough to take Sing with whats there on turn 1 because he wont be able to get more troops in when i close the peninsula - is it cheating to ask the first turn AV value for whats in Sing and the fortresses?

So other than that its a go-er yes?

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 3:45:15 PM

findmeifyoucan

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I am quite sure it is possible to take Mersing and Singapore early against an unaggressive Allied commander. However, all these resources devoted to taking Singapore. Is it really worth that much? There are other strategies. What about Tavoy and Rangoon early or even by passing Singapore completely and taking Borneo, Palenbang and Java first. Singapore will fall eventually, by by-passing it in the beginning eventually supply will deplete to nothing and Singapore will be handed to you on a silver platter with next to no cost or casualties. What does Singapore have, a nice naval base and air base but I'd much rather have the oil and resources further south early!!

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 3:56:01 PM

findmeifyoucan

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I think there is a flaw in your calculations. You are not accounting for any of these subs from Manila being sunk by Japanese ASw attacks. I think a concentrated effort on AC training in ASW and ASW fleet surface escorts would tip the balance a little. :-)

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 5:13:35 PM

Mynok

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quote:

ORIGINAL: findmeifyoucan

I am quite sure it is possible to take Mersing and Singapore early against an unaggressive Allied commander. However, all these resources devoted to taking Singapore. Is it really worth that much? There are other strategies. What about Tavoy and Rangoon early or even by passing Singapore completely and taking Borneo, Palenbang and Java first. Singapore will fall eventually, by by-passing it in the beginning eventually supply will deplete to nothing and Singapore will be handed to you on a silver platter with next to no cost or casualties. What does Singapore have, a nice naval base and air base but I'd much rather have the oil and resources further south early!!

Singapore has the most critical piece of real estate required for getting all those resources back to the home islands: a large port. It is an absolutely vital piece of the puzzle.

Besides, unless you are planning to spend massive effort and denude the rest of your operations of IJA bomber support, you won't keep the airfield interdicted and it will be a massive thorn in your side.

Singapore was first for a very good reason.

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 6:08:36 PM

bigbaba

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just a question from someone who never played japanese in AE:

why not attacking PH with the KB AND manila via zero escorted IJN LBA from formosa like in WITP?

this way, you can get your BBs at pearl AND the nasty subs at manila.

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Post #: 28

RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 6:45:00 PM

Q-Ball

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

just a question from someone who never played japanese in AE:

why not attacking PH with the KB AND manila via zero escorted IJN LBA from formosa like in WITP?

this way, you can get your BBs at pearl AND the nasty subs at manila.

You can absolutely do that, provided you are not playing historical first turn, AND there is no HR limiting port attacks turn 1. No reason you can't do that though. It's preferable to hitting Clark and Iba, because those attacks in game are not very effective.

RE SINGAPORE: This could be the single most important early objective for the Japanese. It's a must. If you want to conserve forces, skip Luzon instead; I don't advise that either in AE, but it's less important than Sinagpore.

Many players have HR against moving surface ships into the Malacca Strait past Sinagpore until it falls. Reason is that IRL, the 15in Guns at Singapore could reach all the way to the Sumatra shore, making that strait impassable for the Japanese. But even without that rule, you MUST take it.

Singapore is objective #1 for the Empire.

undercovergeek: RE: Mersing, it is possible to pick up the Kuantan invasion force and move it to Mersing. Could work. A good Allied opponent would be advised to move all Australians to Mersing turn 1, and some other units though, to prevent this. In fact, other than Singapore itself, Mersing is the only point I would try to defend on the Malayan peninsula.

I have always cancelled the Kuantan landings, because the roads are so bad, but I might do it next time.

< Message edited by Q-Ball -- 2/3/2010 6:50:04 PM >

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RE: Japanese strategy - turn 1 *** no Yank** - 2/3/2010 9:56:33 PM

Chickenboy

Posts: 24520
Joined: 6/29/2002
From: San Antonio, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: bigbaba

just a question from someone who never played japanese in AE:

why not attacking PH with the KB AND manila via zero escorted IJN LBA from formosa like in WITP?

this way, you can get your BBs at pearl AND the nasty subs at manila.

There are a variety of HRs against this.

Personally, I think that the IJ only should be able to port attack on turn one on only one side of the International Date Line. Either the Phillipines have ~8 hours to get ready or the Hawaiian islands have about 16 hours to get ready-IJN choice-but it's unreasonable to expect that both would attacks would surprise the allies. Metaphysics and time/space continuum and all that...

In effecting my Manila strike I also throw the Formosa bombers into the mix, hitting Clark and Manila again, in addition to the KB strikes on the latter. I think you need lots of numbers of bombers to get most of the subs at Manila-I doubt the Formosa bombers would be sufficient by themselves.

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