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Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 9:46:51 PM

ade670

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Having just got into the early part of the campaign, I am very interested to know what people consider acceptable losses for the allies.

My opponent has hit me hard in Pearl and Manilla although I still have assets afloat (without giving too much away).

In particular, I would like to know what experiences you have with the difficult task of extracting transports/cargo /support/tankers dotted around PI, Hong Kong and Malaya.

May main plan at this stage has been to make a dash for open waters and away from air attack - mixed results thus far!!

Any advice on this would be appreciated

Ade

Post #: 1

RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 9:58:42 PM

Canoerebel

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If every ship at Manila was sunk on the way out of Dodge, you'd still be fine. Oh, it would be demoralizing and it would affect you in the short run, but in the long run the Allies get a massive number of ships. I don't mean this flippantly, but a few score (or even hundred) ships here or there are not that significant. I don't mean the Allied player should be lazy or wasteful or throw ships away by the score. What I mean is that a decent Allied player generally will lose a vast number of ships during the game and will be fine.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 9:59:10 PM

bradfordkay

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Honestly, I believe that what is more important than saving ships in the SRA is to inflict as much in the way of losses on the IJN as possible. You are going to lose a huge chunk of the shipping that lies in the way of the Japanese expansion. Do what you can to get them out, but don't lose sleep over it. If you can cost your opponent some valuable shipping, maybe he'll be the one losing sleep...

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 10:07:10 PM

ade670

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Thats good advice from both of you and settles me some - the first few days have seen ships hit the coral like a game of tetris!

I have managed to get ships out into safer waters and think I have done enough.

What is the consensus with supplies/fuel/oil/ resources in these areas- is it worth the risk trying to salvage any??

Ade

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Post #: 4

RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 10:11:03 PM

Canoerebel

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Unless you face a truly aggressive Japanese player, you have some time to pull supplies and fuel out of Java. Forget the Philippines - just flee from there.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 10:12:15 PM

Nomad

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Don't worry about the loses, what gets out is bonus. I try ti get one load of fuel out to the DEI on the way by, that includes AKs. But I don't obsess over it. I try and use the British CA/CLs and the Dutch CLs to inflict some loses on Japan. It can and should at least make your opponent wary. I just sunk a TF off of Kendari and then one off Manado using them( we used a historic start and PoW and Repulse are fish houses )

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 10:15:11 PM

ChickenOfTheSea

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ade670

Thats good advice from both of you and settles me some - the first few days have seen ships hit the coral like a game of tetris!

I have managed to get ships out into safer waters and think I have done enough.

What is the consensus with supplies/fuel/oil/ resources in these areas- is it worth the risk trying to salvage any??

Ade

Those places need supplies for defense. You are better off concentrating on getting as much fuel out of the DEI, especially Palembang, to Australia as you can.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 10:27:54 PM

Chickenboy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ade670

Thats good advice from both of you and settles me some - the first few days have seen ships hit the coral like a game of tetris!

I have managed to get ships out into safer waters and think I have done enough.

What is the consensus with supplies/fuel/oil/ resources in these areas- is it worth the risk trying to salvage any??

Ade

One of my PBEM opponents fled the PI posthaste. Another lingered to collect every last drop of fuel he could. The former got some ships out. The latter got a bunch of torched ships. xAKs burn very nicely when partially full of fuel. It really doesn't take much to light one up. Lingering and taking on fuel is a dangerous practice, but I guess it depends on how much denial of the resources is important to you.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 10:59:05 PM

Reverberate

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bradfordkay

Honestly, I believe that what is more important than saving ships in the SRA is to inflict as much in the way of losses on the IJN as possible. You are going to lose a huge chunk of the shipping that lies in the way of the Japanese expansion. Do what you can to get them out, but don't lose sleep over it. If you can cost your opponent some valuable shipping, maybe he'll be the one losing sleep...

This is the best advise. Remember, for every point of damage you inflict, the enemy will have to inflict 4 to have a shot at auto-victory.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 11:04:25 PM

pompack

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On Dec 8, I consider every naval vessel in the area bounded by Manila-Hong Kong-Singapore-Darwin to be lost. I then try to have them sell their lives as dearly as possible, extracting every last miniscule price where ever possible. I try to extract any that become combat-ineffective, but I realize from the beginning that it is unlikely that more then a half dozen will still be afloat four months hence.

I try to remove as much shipping as possible, but then I use it to build up supplies in Java and Darwin and fuel in Darwin. Java will eventually be lost, but Darwin may hold out if there is sufficient supply there by April 42; since it is almost impossible to get supplies to Darwin after April there needs to be enough there to support a siege if necessary. In fact I ALWAYS keep the merchies flowing for too long and suffer horrible shipping losses if the Japanese commit KB to a DEI raid.

Overall, you are going to lose a LOT of ships before the Summer of 42 (catchy title, someone should make a movie

). Don't worry about it, just make sure that you punish the Japanese here and there along the way.

(in reply to Chickenboy)

Post #: 10

RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 11:07:45 PM

Mike Scholl

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I generally consider ALL assets in the SRA to have been expended the day the war began. The real goal is to get as much good service out of them as possible..., and cause as much difficulty for your opponent as you can in the process. Regard anything that gets away in the end as a bonus, and concentrate on getting as much use from them as you can in the meantime.

(in reply to Reverberate)

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 11:18:56 PM

jb123

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Save the 8130 capacity cargo ships with long legs and 17 speed in the DEI. These make a wonderful trans-pacific cargo ship for San Fran to Oz. They can make the trip without refueling and carry a ton of supplies and a bit of fuel. If you save every one of them it's a hundred k supply carrying capacity. Also, the xAK dorsya (sp) can convert to an AKV. I usually load em with fuel on dec 8, send them to capetown to build the dump there and from there to E USA, panama, san fran.

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Post #: 12

RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/4/2010 11:43:20 PM

bradfordkay

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The good ships in the DEI can be saved, because they aren't really under threat on Dec 7. It's the shipping in the PI and Hong Kong that is in real danger.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 12:00:46 AM

tc464

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I use the Dutch DD and CL to do hit and runs or ambush operations. Generally they get slaughtered but now and again they score. I also set the Dutch seaplanes to naval attack when invasions are imminent. Again, they are slaughtered, but I've sunk a couple ships using that tactic. Finally, Houston and Boise can raise all sorts of hell if used wisely. Ask Mike Solli... I put Ryujo out of commission for a while after he came across Houston (sank her) and then blundered into Boise's reaction range.

He's kicking my butt all over the place right now but every time I get bummed out I just think about Ryujo haha. Hey Mike, you reading this ?

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 2:05:12 AM

Q-Ball

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Save the Dutch xAPs, particularly the small ones....they are useful "invasion" ships before you get proper ones. Little xAPs are helpful, and the Dutch have alot of them.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 2:24:17 AM

John 3rd

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Mike Scholl

I generally consider ALL assets in the SRA to have been expended the day the war began.� The real goal is to get as much good service out of them as possible..., and cause as much difficulty for your opponent as you can in the process.� Regard anything that gets away in the end as a bonus, and concentrate on getting as much use from them as you can in the meantime.

My view is identical to Mike's here. Everything is lost on Dec 7th so Fight! FIGHT!! FIGHT!!!

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Post #: 16

RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 2:46:49 AM

topeverest

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Here are a few tips, but remember it is your game to play. Ultimately, you will learn your own path.

Whether you fight and expend the assets should be a part of your overall strategy. If you have not, you should sit down and determine where and when you are going to make a fight of it, and where you want to challenge the Jap navy / which invasions. Review your reinforcements and replacements. Determine which forces get what. Execute that plan. Do not just react and definately dont overreact. The Japanese will win all their early battles, barring a gross error or extreme luck. Commit where you have no choice and where you can sting the enemy, but be prepare to expend those assets.

I find that pulling what you can back out of the Philippines is a good option. I use subs and PT boats as my only offensive weapons, and I try to get the 4th marine Regiment out of Bataan along with all surviving planes. Aggressive massed sudden sweeps with your remaining fighters can give a few casualties if you are fortunate enough to have some survive, but other than that, it is a total loss. You're goal there should be to occupy as many forces for as long as possible. I generally do not send supply to the Philippines, because all the assets typcially are lost and only 20-30% of the supply gets on Luzon.

In indonesia, burma, and Malaya, you need to pay close attention to where the enemy land based air is - and is being used. Keep your navy at least a dozen hexes away. You have a large navy at your fingertips, I usually aggregate the cruisers and destroyers from Malaya, Java, and Philippines into one or two forces and hope for an opportunity to expend the assets, assuming the Jap player over extends. I also congregate air assets on Java and force the Japs to win an air battle (or pounce on an unsupported attack). Note I will not throw assets away on useless attacks. If you are playing against a prudent Jap opponent that does not overstretch indo-phillipine invasions beyond land based air support, you may never commit to a battle. I do not reccomend committing to any naval battle if the japs have massed land based air available and in range. Your assets will live to be better used later oprations.

I am of the opinion that Singapore is undefendable. You should hold as smartly and long as possible. Do not over commit too high on the peninsula, as follow on invasions are likely. Aggregate your anti air where you plan to defend. It will be your best opporunity to down enemy planes. This is an important tactic to remember in the game. Also, get your attack planes out and find a new home(s). High sweeps with the Buffalos can reap big rewards for a few turns until they are expended or your airbase is bombed.

To your question on getting supply, resources, and fuel out of indonesia - that would be a definitive yes. Australia and the surrounding islands start with insufficient supplies and fuel. Use all your cargo, transports, tankers, and other support ships to move as much of everything out. Expending assets on a last pass for supply and fuel is worth it in my view. You should target 200,000 fuel and 100,000 supply at a minimum. Think about this carefully, as the more you get, the more options you have with Australia as a base of immediate term future operations.

In burma, you are faced with a dilemma if to defend Rangoon &/or Malaya or not. Think carefully on that. there are implications either way. CHina you will have to feel out based on the Jap intensions. An experienced player will want the bases closest to Japan to avert them as B29 bases later in the game.

You have an opportunity at Wake with your CV's right at the beginning of the game. you can committ there are definitively turn that invasion, but be quick about it. You also could go back to Hawaii in the event the Jap player lingers at Pearl - and offer battle. Think that one through before you do it. It is a pretty complex adaptation of surface, sub, and CV tactics that tends to work to drive the Japs off. It can result decisively either way.

Finally do not underestimate the verocity of the Jap forces. Mass triple the forces you think you need to make a stand, especially supply and fuel. Built nearby ports and airfields to support operations, etc. Think through the 'stands' you intend to make.

It will be extermely humbling to play the allies over the first 5 or 6 months, but trust me that you will live to launch your own operations.
-------------------
Hopefully this will give you something to go on.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 3:21:03 AM

wdolson

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When evacuating ships from the PI, it helps to put them into single ship TFs. Running them at full speed for the first day or two helps too. Smaller TFs are harder to spot, so at least some of your ships will probably slip through the net.

You will lose some of them and almost certainly most of the larger ships will be lost. The AKLs you can save do come in handy for running supplies to small ports. Saving as many as possible is a good thing in the long run.

What to do with the warships in the DEI/PI is a player's decision. It's one of those rock and a hard place decisions. Pulling them back will save them for later, but will allow the Japanese to run their invasions unchecked. Committing them might cause some damage and slow down the Japanese, giving places like Java some breathing room.

Against an aggressive Japanese player, the ultimate maximum extent of the empire will depend a lot on how fast he can grow it. In most games, by mid-1942 the Allies will be getting enough of a bite to be a serious threat to further Japanese expansion. Whether the line the Allies are defending at that point is in Katherine or Soerbaja depends on how fast the Japanese were able to move in the first months.

Bill

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 3:43:34 AM

JeffroK

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Chickenboy

quote:

ORIGINAL: ade670

Thats good advice from both of you and settles me some - the first few days have seen ships hit the coral like a game of tetris!

I have managed to get ships out into safer waters and think I have done enough.

What is the consensus with supplies/fuel/oil/ resources in these areas- is it worth the risk trying to salvage any??

Ade

One of my PBEM opponents fled the PI posthaste. Another lingered to collect every last drop of fuel he could. The former got some ships out. The latter got a bunch of torched ships. xAKs burn very nicely when partially full of fuel. It really doesn't take much to light one up. Lingering and taking on fuel is a dangerous practice, but I guess it depends on how much denial of the resources is important to you.

As the Allies, I would happily accept this loss.

If I get the fuel down to Darwin or Perth its a bonus.

If you sink my ship, the fuel on board is a few more drops the IJN cant use.

PS ade670. Think about shipping some supplies INTO Manila, Singapore or Bataan. It might help you last a few days extra. Batavia is a good place to feed Singapore from, I've even airlifted supplies in!

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 3:48:08 AM

JeffroK

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From Pompack

I try to remove as much shipping as possible, but then I use it to build up supplies in Java and Darwin and fuel in Darwin. Java will eventually be lost, but Darwin may hold out if there is sufficient supply there by April 42; since it is almost impossible to get supplies to Darwin after April there needs to be enough there to support a siege if necessary. In fact I ALWAYS keep the merchies flowing for too long and suffer horrible shipping losses if the Japanese commit KB to a DEI raid.

To alleviate this ahistorical situation I have done a mod where "CD Convoys" arrive at Darwin to replicate the supplies carried up the track from Adelaide/Alice Springs. It works except I need to work out a reasonable value. If you recreate real life you need far less than would be needed to stave of an attack or mount a counteroffensive from Darwin, needs some work.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 6:10:02 AM

crsutton

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Just don't lose your carriers. You can recover from anything else.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 2:01:01 PM

xj900uk

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Save the carriers, and save the tankers/oilers as you will need those in 42-43. Any oil/fuel you can get out of DEI is a bonus (don't try to get any out of the PI, just do a Sir Robin on 08.12)

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 3:32:36 PM

fflaguna

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As a newbie playing the Japanese in a PBEM, I am finding this thread simply fascinating.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 4:18:04 PM

String

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quote:

ORIGINAL: xj900uk

Save the carriers, and save the tankers/oilers as you will need those in 42-43.� Any oil/fuel you can get out of DEI is a bonus (don't try to get any out of the PI,� just do a Sir Robin on 08.12)

also, saving AP's is good if you can do it. Allies aren't exactly overflowing with troop transport capacity early in the war.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 5:05:50 PM

Mike Scholl

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

Just don't lose your carriers. You can recover from anything else.

Your carriers have NO business anywhere near the SRA until their airgroups have been upgraded with newer, better A/C.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 6:22:40 PM

Nikademus

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tell that to Rob and Tony!

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 7:38:52 PM

Q-Ball

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crsutton is right: The only ships you can't lose are the CVs.

The Allies should never commit them the first year IMO except in situation where you KNOW that KB isn't there. Even then, you lose a certain advantage if you reveal their position.

If the Japanese can move knowing that the Allied CVs aren't operational, you are in big trouble. Keep them safe!

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 9:53:09 PM

ade670

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Thanks for the info - hugely beneficial and certainly good food for thought.
I think the most valuable point is that of the CVs - losing them too early allows the IJN to extend far and fast.

How many people use the Lexington to parry the attack on Wake - it certainly seems a prudent option although somewhat risky given the KB can move around the pacific unrestricted.

Although only a few days in I think fuel is critical and to deny the IJN every drop has to be the strategy for the early war.

Once again, thanks for the input on this thread - excellent top tips

Now where did I leave my CVs??

ADe

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/5/2010 10:37:05 PM

fflaguna

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ade670

How many people use the Lexington to parry the attack on Wake - it certainly seems a prudent option although somewhat risky given the KB can move around the pacific unrestricted.

I'm playing as Japan, and I was a bit worried about it a couple turns ago. The default infantry force sailing towards Wake on Dec. 7th is just BARELY enough to capture the island, anyway! I'm a newbie, but I knew about the chance of a Wake interdiction by US carriers, so I had a second wave enroute. If I had to land the second wave to capture, I would have bombarded Wake with Kidou Butai BB, attacked Wake with Kidou Butai CV, and landed the second wave exactly one day after the KB strikes. Wake belongs to the Japanese player in the early war, if the Japanese player is so inclined.

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RE: Allied Losses in early Campaign - pbem - 2/8/2010 1:39:25 PM

xj900uk

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Yeah, the Lady Lex can get some free ship-bombing practice in the first week of the war at Wake. This reflects RL when the IJN sent an under-strength assault force early on and the Lady Lex was close enough to interfere (but in practice didn't, it was recalled to PH)

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Post #: 30