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Political Point Shortcuts - 2/5/2010 11:07:09 PM

wwengr

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From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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In this thread, I want to ask people to offer all of the ways that to make changes to HQ'a and Leaders and avoid or minimize the PP costs They can be legitimate, gamey, or whatever:

TF Commander at formation - If you form a TF and get commander you don't want, try forming different types of TF's with different ships until you get one you like. Then transfer ships in and out and change the mission of the TF until you you have the mission and ships you want. (A little gamey)

Keep a key TF Commander when the TF needs to disband - Leave in or transfer in a ship to be a place keeper in the TF with the commander you want to keep. Transfer the ships you need to disband out and disband them. Example, your carrier TF with Ray Spruance in command needs to undergo substantial repairs (all of the ships). You change the Air Combat TF to an Escort TF and transfer in a PT boat. You transfer all the ships to another TF leaving just the PT and you disband the other TF. Spruance will have his single PT boat until his carrier and escorts are ready... No PP cost to get him back. (slightly gamey)

Expressions of incredulity are welcome as long as references to deficient parentage or deficient personage do not accompany the opinion.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

Post #: 1

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/5/2010 11:20:17 PM

Knavey

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From: Valrico, Florida
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I have used the second one before...normally was a DD keeping my air combat TF available so I don't have to buy the commander all over again. I don't consider it particularly gamey! Its widely available to both players and pretty easy to do so it should be well known.

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Post #: 2

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/5/2010 11:30:07 PM

topeverest

Posts: 3376
Joined: 10/17/2007
From: Houston, TX - USA
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In periods where I an wanting of PP, I will do both of what you say.

Also, another particularly gamey variation is targeting specific commanders to fight all your major naval battles, like Halsey or Nagumo. It is not unheard of to disband him in one location on one day and play games with creating another convoy he can command at another hot spot elsewhere immediately. This is one of those slimy 'edge' factors that can and will turn the tide of close games pretty effectively if you know about it, so I typically have a house rule against it.

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Post #: 3

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 12:13:54 AM

WITPPL

Posts: 290
Joined: 8/5/2009
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I was quite sure that im the only freak doing this type of funky moves...
Good to know that i was wrong

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

In this thread, I want to ask people to offer all of the ways that to make changes to HQ'a and Leaders and avoid or minimize the PP costs They can be legitimate, gamey, or whatever:

TF Commander at formation - If you form a TF and get commander you don't want, try forming different types of TF's with different ships until you get one you like. Then transfer ships in and out and change the mission of the TF until you you have the mission and ships you want. (A little gamey)

Keep a key TF Commander when the TF needs to disband - Leave in or transfer in a ship to be a place keeper in the TF with the commander you want to keep. Transfer the ships you need to disband out and disband them. Example, your carrier TF with Ray Spruance in command needs to undergo substantial repairs (all of the ships). You change the Air Combat TF to an Escort TF and transfer in a PT boat. You transfer all the ships to another TF leaving just the PT and you disband the other TF. Spruance will have his single PT boat until his carrier and escorts are ready... No PP cost to get him back. (slightly gamey)

Expressions of incredulity are welcome as long as references to deficient parentage or deficient personage do not accompany the opinion.

_____________________________

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Post #: 4

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 12:16:37 AM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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Change a HQ from a Restricted Command to an Unreastricted Command - This will result in all of the units that are subordinate to become unrestricted. This saves the PP expense of changing the units individually. Example, several units are assigned to a Corps HQ that is assigned to a restricted HQ. The Corps HQ is not restricted with (R) by it's name. Rather than changing the units individually, to load for transport. Change the Corps HQ at a much lower expense of PP. Using logical groupings of units habitually assigned to a HQ, the HQ can be changed to effect the change of all of the units to different commands for various purposes. (Not gamey - exactly as intended)

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Post #: 5

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 12:49:58 AM

jb123

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so when house rules for PBEMs are saying one must buy units from Kwantung or China, etc., they are allowing only the commander to change his HQ and the thousands of pps the individual divisions cost are not included? I always thought each unit must be bought out.

Hmmmm

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Post #: 6

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 1:06:00 AM

WITPPL

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I am probably wrong
but
There are no "NOT (R) marked" commands under restricted higher HQ in Koreo or Manchukuo.
So it wont work.

quote:

ORIGINAL: jb123

so when house rules for PBEMs are saying one must buy units from Kwantung or China, etc., they are allowing only the commander to change his HQ and the thousands of pps the individual divisions cost are not included? I always thought each unit must be bought out.

Hmmmm

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Post #: 7

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 6:04:57 AM

Central Blue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Change a HQ from a Restricted Command to an Unreastricted Command - This will result in all of the units that are subordinate to become unrestricted. This saves the PP expense of changing the units individually. Example, several units are assigned to a Corps HQ that is assigned to a restricted HQ. The Corps HQ is not restricted with (R) by it's name. Rather than changing the units individually, to load for transport. Change the Corps HQ at a much lower expense of PP. Using logical groupings of units habitually assigned to a HQ, the HQ can be changed to effect the change of all of the units to different commands for various purposes. (Not gamey - exactly as intended)

You can move a remarkable number of troops out of Singapore and DEI this way. Eastern Australia HQ is very inexpensive to move, and now commands most of the troops in western Australia.

On the other hand, I pay a premium just to organize troops under a corps and army OOB that is more or less historical. Despite the best efforts of better educated posters, my animal brain tells me that command benefits *must* roll down through the chain of command more effectively than across command lines.

For the smaller task forces, up to single US carrier TF's, I will typically replace the commander on the ship. I tried the auto-selection gambit, but it seemed like I was always having to pay a premium to get someone I wanted. Where I want to build the experience of some specific vessel types/nationalities, I will look for certain commanders and pay a premium to get them. But even with these methods, it may be more advantageous to start the TF with ships of a specific nation.

Not exactly a cost saving measure but, I withdraw all of those squadrons that pay a bonus so that I can replace all of HQ commanders at Pearl on day 2. It may be my imagination, but I think this really helps for those games where the KB just won't go away. You may even be able to get some of his oilers with DB's or PT's this way.

_____________________________

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Post #: 8

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 10:50:01 AM

wwengr

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From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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Another variation on the TF Commander is to form a bunch of TF's of the same type and keep only the one with aTF Commander that you like. Example; say there are twenty DD's at Pearl and you want to form an ASW TF of four DD's. Form 10 TF's with two DD's each and select the TF that has the best TF Commander. Transfer ships in and our as necessary to get what you want and disband all of the other TF's. No PP's. (A little gamey)

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Post #: 9

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 1:00:01 PM

ckammp

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From: Rear Area training facility
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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Change a HQ from a Restricted Command to an Unreastricted Command - This will result in all of the units that are subordinate to become unrestricted. This saves the PP expense of changing the units individually. Example, several units are assigned to a Corps HQ that is assigned to a restricted HQ. The Corps HQ is not restricted with (R) by it's name. Rather than changing the units individually, to load for transport. Change the Corps HQ at a much lower expense of PP. Using logical groupings of units habitually assigned to a HQ, the HQ can be changed to effect the change of all of the units to different commands for various purposes. (Not gamey - exactly as intended)

If this cheat worked, it would be gamey as hell. It does not, in fact, work. All the restricted units in the game are assigned to HQs that can not be changed to unrestricted Commands.
You have to pay PPs for each individual unit.

(in reply to wwengr)

Post #: 10

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 2:52:54 PM

wwengr

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I should have been more specific. From the manual (p 174):

quote:

HQ�s can be categorized as restricted, temporarily restricted, static restricted and unrestricted (i.e., normal). The effects of each category are as follows:

....Temporarily Restricted � units may not move by air or sea unless the HQ is changed. When the HQ�s are changed subordinate units change to the classification of the parent...

There are no temporarily restricted HQ and very few arrive during the game. The way to work this in your favor is to transfer an unrestricted subordinate HQ to a restricted HQ then transfer unrestricted units to the subordinate HQ. The transfer of units to a subordinate HQ costs only 25% of the PP as transfer between command HQ. The final step is to tranfer the HQ to an unrestricted command at only the PP cost of transfering the HQ.

The example provided by Central Blue in a previous thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

For example, transfer the I Amphib to West Coast command. Now you only pay 25% of the cost to transfer units to it like restricted Marine Regiments or Raiders that you want to get into action. Then you can transfer the I Amphib to any command where you want its attached troops, and pay only the cost of transferring the HQ itself.

Want to get the Aussies out of Singapore? Transfer Eastern Command or I Corps to Malaya Army (or whatever it is called) and pay 25% of the stated cost.

It works the same way for Air HQ's.

I don't consider this gamey. Without using it, there is no way for the Allies to actually perform the command transfers and move units that they did historically and it appears to be how the mechanics were intended. It's not free, but used right it can substantially reduce the PP requirements.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 2/6/2010 3:26:13 PM >

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

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Post #: 11

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 2:58:27 PM

USSAmerica

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From: Graham, NC, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Change a HQ from a Restricted Command to an Unreastricted Command - This will result in all of the units that are subordinate to become unrestricted. This saves the PP expense of changing the units individually. Example, several units are assigned to a Corps HQ that is assigned to a restricted HQ. The Corps HQ is not restricted with (R) by it's name. Rather than changing the units individually, to load for transport. Change the Corps HQ at a much lower expense of PP. Using logical groupings of units habitually assigned to a HQ, the HQ can be changed to effect the change of all of the units to different commands for various purposes. (Not gamey - exactly as intended)

If this cheat worked, it would be gamey as hell. It does not, in fact, work. All the restricted units in the game are assigned to HQs that can not be changed to unrestricted Commands.
You have to pay PPs for each individual unit.

The Allies have several Corps/Air HQ's that can be assigned to unrestricted command HQ's after you assign as many lower level LCU's/Air groups to it.

_____________________________

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Post #: 12

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 3:40:45 PM

ckammp

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So let me get this straight.
1) Pay PPs to transfer an unrestricted Corps command to a restricted Command.
2) Pay PPs to transfer a restricted unit to the now-restricted Corps.
3) Pay PPs to transfer the restricted Corps to an un-restricted Command.
4) The units assigned to the once-again un-restricted Corps are now themselves un-restricted.

Why not just pay PPs once, for the unit?

I seriously doubt that the devs think this is WAD.
If so, why, at start, are all the units assigned to Malaya Army restricted, but Malaya Army HQ itself is not restricted?
Why are all the units assigned to III Indian Corps un-restricted, but III Indian Corps HQ itself is restricted?

I believe the intent of the devs was to allow players to have an easy way to assign units to Corps HQs, for either "historical" or operational reasons; using this system to circumvent unit restrictions is plainly gamey.

Assigning all the Malaya Army units to the Australian Eastern Command...

(in reply to USSAmerica)

Post #: 13

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 4:00:50 PM

wwengr

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Respectfully, I disagree that it is gamey and unintended by the devs. The explicit statement in the manual on P 174

quote:

When the HQ�s are changed subordinate units change to the classification of the parent.

is what leads me to this conclusion. This section is explicitly describing what happens when HQ are changed from restricted commands.

The reason to do it is the modest PP point savings to be gained. As you asssesed, there is the cost of switching the subordinate HQ in and out and the 25% PP cost of switching the units. This would be more costly or at best little gain to do for a single unit. The only really significant gain would be to change a group of units at once.

Of course, I do understand why JFB's might conclude that AFB's don't need any more means by which they can get more LCU's in play.

< Message edited by wwengr -- 2/6/2010 4:05:44 PM >

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

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Post #: 14

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 5:24:04 PM

ckammp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Respectfully, I disagree that it is gamey and unintended by the devs. The explicit statement in the manual on P 174
quote:

When the HQ�s are changed subordinate units change to the classification of the parent.
is what leads me to this conclusion. This section is explicitly describing what happens when HQ are changed from restricted commands.

The reason to do it is the modest PP point savings to be gained. As you asssesed, there is the cost of switching the subordinate HQ in and out and the 25% PP cost of switching the units. This would be more costly or at best little gain to do for a single unit. The only really significant gain would be to change a group of units at once.

Of course, I do understand why JFB's might conclude that AFB's don't need any more means by which they can get more LCU's in play.

My interpretation of the manual section is that units already assigned to Temporarily Restricted Hqs will have their restrictons lifted when the HQ is changed.

Yet as you yourself pointed out in a previous post, there are NO such HQs at game start. Surely, if the devs intended Temporary Restricted HQs to function as you describe, they would have included some when they are most needed, at game start. That they did not leads me to believe that the devs intended that PPs should be for each unit, not a group.

I am sorry, but unless one of the devs comments on this issue, I remain convinced that it is gamey.

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RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 5:37:22 PM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

Not exactly a cost saving measure but, I withdraw all of those squadrons that pay a bonus so that I can replace all of HQ commanders at Pearl on day 2.

I'm pretty sure that if you say 'NO' about getting the PP bonus then the planes and pilots go to the pool instead of being lost.

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Post #: 16

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 6:09:26 PM

Bullwinkle58

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

Not exactly a cost saving measure but, I withdraw all of those squadrons that pay a bonus so that I can replace all of HQ commanders at Pearl on day 2.

I'm pretty sure that if you say 'NO' about getting the PP bonus then the planes and pilots go to the pool instead of being lost.

I'm pretty sure they do

, and after I discovered this second-level of Yes/No by accident long ago I've almost always kept the airframes (as Allies.) Getting 35 "free" PPs and flushing ten precious PBYs, for example, isn't very smart.

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RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 6:52:49 PM

Twotribes

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

Change a HQ from a Restricted Command to an Unreastricted Command - This will result in all of the units that are subordinate to become unrestricted. This saves the PP expense of changing the units individually. Example, several units are assigned to a Corps HQ that is assigned to a restricted HQ. The Corps HQ is not restricted with (R) by it's name. Rather than changing the units individually, to load for transport. Change the Corps HQ at a much lower expense of PP. Using logical groupings of units habitually assigned to a HQ, the HQ can be changed to effect the change of all of the units to different commands for various purposes. (Not gamey - exactly as intended)

Have you checked this, in the rules it specifically says this does not change the subordinate commands.

(in reply to wwengr)

Post #: 18

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 7:37:59 PM

Rob Brennan UK

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Call me old fashioned but i just change what i want to change and if i get a duff commander when making a TF i pay PP's to get a better one.

this could of course be called the 'lazy way' too

OH and i never ditch airplanes for a few paltry PP's .. as the Moose says 'it's not smart'

As for changing an HQ and all the troops changing for free !! yikes that would be gamey as hell in my book unless the HQ cost included the cost of all on map and reinforcmet subordinate units.

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Post #: 19

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 10:05:09 PM

Central Blue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Bullwinkle58

quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

Not exactly a cost saving measure but, I withdraw all of those squadrons that pay a bonus so that I can replace all of HQ commanders at Pearl on day 2.

I'm pretty sure that if you say 'NO' about getting the PP bonus then the planes and pilots go to the pool instead of being lost.

I'm pretty sure they do, and after I discovered this second-level of Yes/No by accident long ago I've almost always kept the airframes (as Allies.) Getting 35 "free" PPs and flushing ten precious PBYs, for example, isn't very smart.

I don't remember flushing any PBY's. I sometimes withdraw them to the pool or disband them into other units with better commanders, but they come back after some period of time like 60, 90, 120 days. There are some possible PP's in the B-17e units in the States, but I always take the option to consolidate those into groups that will stick around. Still, 63 PP for the 3 B-17E's in the 19/32nd Det is an interesting dilemma at the start of the game. And if I ever played a human, I think I would ditch the 3 planes.

I just reran the first turn, and the squadrons in Hong Kong are plain toast, and they are worth a total of 57 points. There is a flight of some off-model recon Beaufort where you get the option described, but it is a dead end line of aircraft in any event. They are worth 12 points.

So 69, plus the starting 150, gets you plenty of points to change out the commanders at Pearl and move the Asiatic fleet HQ with 43 points to spare on December 8.

_____________________________

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Post #: 20

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 10:39:14 PM

Central Blue

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

I should have been more specific. From the manual (p 174):

quote:

HQ�s can be categorized as restricted, temporarily restricted, static restricted and unrestricted (i.e., normal). The effects of each category are as follows:

....Temporarily Restricted � units may not move by air or sea unless the HQ is changed. When the HQ�s are changed subordinate units change to the classification of the parent...

There are no temporarily restricted HQ and very few arrive during the game. The way to work this in your favor is to transfer an unrestricted subordinate HQ to a restricted HQ then transfer unrestricted units to the subordinate HQ. The transfer of units to a subordinate HQ costs only 25% of the PP as transfer between command HQ. The final step is to tranfer the HQ to an unrestricted command at only the PP cost of transfering the HQ.

The example provided by Central Blue in a previous thread:

quote:

ORIGINAL: Central Blue

For example, transfer the I Amphib to West Coast command. Now you only pay 25% of the cost to transfer units to it like restricted Marine Regiments or Raiders that you want to get into action. Then you can transfer the I Amphib to any command where you want its attached troops, and pay only the cost of transferring the HQ itself.

Want to get the Aussies out of Singapore? Transfer Eastern Command or I Corps to Malaya Army (or whatever it is called) and pay 25% of the stated cost.

It works the same way for Air HQ's.

I don't consider this gamey. Without using it, there is no way for the Allies to actually perform the command transfers and move units that they did historically and it appears to be how the mechanics were intended. It's not free, but used right it can substantially reduce the PP requirements.

I posted that a while ago. So either they didn't see it, or they don't care.

Given what I read about HQ benefits, I may be spending more points in the long run anyway. Apparently all you really need is any old land HQ in the vicinity to get the bonuses. But something just feels right about being able to transfer the US XIV Corps from SOPAC to Sixth Army.

The penalty to move historically committed troops off the Left Coast is already quite insane without this option. But if my opponent promised not to invade Australia, I would be happy to leave those brigades in Malaya and spend those few hundred PP's elsewhere.

edit -- ok, that post was recent... see this thread in November for my first mention of using this for ground units that I can find: http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2293638&mpage=1&key=�

< Message edited by Central Blue -- 2/6/2010 11:02:15 PM >

_____________________________

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Post #: 21

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/6/2010 10:54:04 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Twotribes

Have you checked this, in the rules it specifically says this does not change the subordinate commands.

You may be right. Now that I read it again, it does not read with a lot of clarity. From page 178:

quote:

HQ�s can be categorized as restricted, temporarily restricted, static restricted and unrestricted (i.e., normal). The effects of each category are as follows:

�� Restricted � units may not move by air or sea unless the HQ is changed. Even when HQ�s are changed subordinate units need to be individually acquired via PP�s.

�� Temporarily Restricted � units may not move by air or sea unless the HQ is changed. When the HQ�s are changed subordinate units change to the classification of the parent.

�� Static Restricted - HQ�s (and on some occasions units) are restricted and may never have their HQ changed � they remain and always shall be permanently restricted.

�� Unrestricted � None of the above restrictions apply.

I read the bolded part in contrast to the to italicized part which implies that subordinate units of the restricted HQ need to be aquired individually and that the Temporarily Restricted units change with their parent. By itself, the bolded part does not offer real clarity, but apply formal logic in contrast to the description in the italicized part and it implies that the restriction goes away with the restriction on the HQ.

A Temporarily Restricted HQ is nothing other than an Unrestricted HQ subordinate to a Restricted HQ.

Now whether or not the devs intended that you could take advantage of the reduced cost to assign between corps (or other subordinate) HQ and follow with application of this logic is another matter. I can not read their minds.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

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Post #: 22

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 3:04:01 AM

wwengr

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The US Army alone had about 21 Infantry Divisions that served in the PTO. Add another 6 marine Divisions. Corps and Army troops including a variety of artillery and armor units. Consider quite a few air groups. A couple Divsions are unrestricted at start and some troops arrive unrestricted. Regardless, there are not enough PP to individually release all of the US units that fought, let alone command changes, India, China, Australia, etc.

IMHO the method of changing the headquarters and having all subordinate units follow makes sense.

_____________________________

I have been inputting my orders for the campaign game first turn since July 4, 2009. I'm getting close. In another month or two, I might be able to run the turn!

(in reply to Central Blue)

Post #: 23

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 4:18:15 AM

ckammp

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quote:

ORIGINAL: wwengr

The US Army alone had about 21 Infantry Divisions that served in the PTO. Add another 6 marine Divisions. Corps and Army troops including a variety of artillery and armor units. Consider quite a few air groups. A couple Divsions are unrestricted at start and some troops arrive unrestricted. Regardless, there are not enough PP to individually release all of the US units that fought, let alone command changes, India, China, Australia, etc.

IMHO the method of changing the headquarters and having all subordinate units follow makes sense.

The US Army deployed 19 infantry Divisions, 1 Airborne Division, and 1 Cavalry Division. The US Marines deployed 6 Divisions.
6 of the Army Divisions, and 1 Marine Division, are restricted. All the rest are unrestricted.
The cost in PPs for a division is about 1200, so the total needed for all 7 divisions is 7200. This represents 144 days worth of PPs. Given that the game has around 1600 turns, the Allied player has more than enough PPs. And the smaller units like artillery and armor cost far, far less than the divisions.

I have no problems with the idea of changing unrestricted units using this method; in fact I believe that is it's intended purpose. However, to use this method to change a group of restricted units by not paying the full PP cost is gamey.

(in reply to wwengr)

Post #: 24

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 5:03:23 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

The US Army deployed 19 infantry Divisions, 1 Airborne Division, and 1 Cavalry Division. The US Marines deployed 6 Divisions.

6 of the Army Divisions, and 1 Marine Division, are restricted. All the rest are unrestricted.

The cost in PPs for a division is about 1200...

Not in my PBM playing scenario 1. They are much more. Even a partial strength division is showing over 1,700. Full strength regiments are over 700.

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Post #: 25

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 6:12:59 AM

ckammp

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

The US Army deployed 19 infantry Divisions, 1 Airborne Division, and 1 Cavalry Division. The US Marines deployed 6 Divisions.

6 of the Army Divisions, and 1 Marine Division, are restricted. All the rest are unrestricted.

The cost in PPs for a division is about 1200...

Not in my PBM playing scenario 1. They are much more. Even a partial strength division is showing over 1,700. Full strength regiments are over 700.

A good point.
My initial calculations were based on the at-start conditions of the units. The 41st Infantry Division costs 1198 PPs to change, but this is due to it being under-strength and disabled.
A full-strength, un-disabled Division costs 2169 PPs to change; an Infantry Regiment 723 PPs.

The total then, to un-restrict the Army and Marine Divisions and Regiments is 18800 PPs. this represents a total of 376 turns worth of PPs. This may seem like a lot of PPs, but remember that Scenario 01 has a total of 1634 turns, equaling 81700 PPs (+100 at-start), a total of 81800 PPs. The cost of buying these Divisions and Regiments is less than 1/3 of the total PPs available to the Allied player; they still have 63000 PPs!
Furthermore, this 18800 PP total represents the highest possible cost. Only 3 restricted US Army Divisions arrive full-strength, 1 doesn't arrive until Mar 43, another not until Apr 44. All the other restricted Divisions and Regiments either arrive or start under-strength and/or disabled, so the PP cost is much lower.

Again, the Allied player has plenty of available PPs to use for changing leaders and changing units.

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Post #: 26

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 6:43:44 AM

Ron Saueracker

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Hey...let's all use steroids and apologise later!

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Post #: 27

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 8:43:48 AM

Brady

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Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: ckammp

I am sorry, but unless one of the devs comments on this issue, I remain convinced that it is gamey.

It is a brilient work around.

But to be blunt, it's f'ed up, its extrodenarly gamey.

As noted above its very easy for the Allies to buy Divishions in such quanitys early on to destabalise the game, even US Divishions that are pricey.

When I play the Allies I generaly Buy Chinese Divishions and UK/Conenwealth Divishions, as their cheap and will fill up nicely, so you get a lot more bang for your buck.

Their are no comparably cheap Japanese Divishions to be had.

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Post #: 28

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 12:41:31 PM

wwengr

Posts: 678
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Menomonee Falls, Wisconsin, USA
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Great info ckammp! I think I am becoming convinced it is gamey, but not sure. I am going to do some looking into the scenario 1 OB to see what the total of units are that start and arrive restricted, including airgroups. The manual section is certainly not clear-cut.

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Post #: 29

RE: Political Point Shortcuts - 2/7/2010 4:32:58 PM

witpqs

Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady

But to be blunt, it's f'ed up, its extrodenarly gamey.

As noted above its very easy for the Allies to buy Divishions in such quanitys early on to destabalise the game, even US Divishions that are pricey.

Brady I agree that it's gamey (unless the devs chime in and say "WAD"), but it is not easy for the Allies to buy divisions early on. As ckammp pointed out, some of them would only stay cheap if you left replacements off, in which case you get 1/2 a division. More likely to be grist for the mill than stopping the IJ tsunami.

(in reply to Brady)

Post #: 30