Overly strong pillboxes???

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All Forums >> [Current Games From Matrix.] >> [World War II] >> Steel Panthers World At War & Mega Campaigns >> Overly strong pillboxes???

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Overly strong pillboxes??? - 11/17/2000 11:38:00 AM

General_Mo

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I just started playing SPWAW a few weeks ago and I REALLY like it! I am in the middle of the "Moments of Truth '43" Scenario (German advance vs USSR delay). This scenario contains a number of pillboxes. I found these damn near immpossible to destroy. For fun I tried to surround one MG pillbox with 5 Panzers (at point-blank range) each sporting a 75mm gun. I positioned all of the Panzers at the rear of the pillbox and let them have at it. This pillbox took over 10 hits in the rear and was not destroyed!!! I love this game but I think the damage modeling (or calculations) for your fortifications needs to be adjusted downward. If you stop and think about it, I think that if you were one of these guys inside a pillbox with 5 Panzers knocking at your back door point-blank (50 yards?) with 10 (or more) 75mm HE shells, you would find your activities highly "suppressed". In fact I think your natural course of action would be to abandon your pillbox due to heavy suppression (that's right run like hell). The modeling of your fortifications could also be modified so that successive point-blank range HE direct fire damages the pillbox. At some point a fortification would be rendered useless or its inhabitants so stunned that their morale status would be equal to "routed". What do you guys think? ------------------ General Mo

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- 11/17/2000 11:47:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Now that one has been discussed for hours and hours General Mo. You'd be amazed at how many threads over the weeks have been dedicated to this theme. I was of the same opinion for a while. Finally I began doing research on bunkers, pillboxes, etc. and found them to really be pretty much in line with what we have in the game. So I retracted my objections. I remember one instance on the Siegfried Line where they put 320 pounds of TNT around an on one bunker to finally cave it in. We've all learned to use smoke, cautious approach and constant pounding. You'll find that some go up easier than others. But if you've been used to those cardboard ones in earlier versions of SP, this will be quite a change for you. Thanks for Playing Moment of Truth, Other than the bunkers, I hope you are enjoying it. There are easier ones too. You've picked a toughie to begin with...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 11/17/2000 12:17:00 PM

Tankhead

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Engineers and flamethrower tanks works great for taking those bunkers out same with planes with 500 or 1000 LB bombs.

Tankhead ------------------ Rick Cloutier [email]rcclout@telusplanet.net[/email] Coordinator: Tankhead's SPWAW Resources http://tankhead.home.icq.com

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- 11/17/2000 12:26:00 PM

Warrior

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Just remember the pictures of the fortifications on the Normandy coast after D-Day. They took an unbelieveable pounding, but still chopped up the landings. If you think pillboxes are bad, wait til you hit the scenario with the T-34 cupolas (basically a T-34 buried up to the turret). I spent a good 15 turns hammering that hunk of iron before it finally went belly up! In fact, after a few turns, I just bypassed it and left some Spec Ops and engineers to keep up the effort.

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- 11/17/2000 2:09:00 PM

Bill

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Overall the robustness of pillboxes is probably about right - from the front and sides. But how about from the rear? What about some kind of experience check that a pillbox surrenders if infantry, particularly enginneers are behind it? Bill

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- 11/17/2000 5:34:00 PM

Hauptmann6

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Although not modeled in the game, german plans for pillboxes(yes, they have numbered types for everything) all include a MG loop for a MG34/42 in the read near the door. And for larger pillboxes 2 meters of reinforced concrete was concidered the minimum thickness for the roof and the walls. And depending on the type of fort it could be much more than that. Haupt

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- 11/17/2000 6:54:00 PM

JNL

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Slapping a fortification with indirect fire -then close assaulting with Eng Units/bazooka armed units is the preferred method of removing them for me. The costly part of this process is finding them - usually by a AFV brew up or 4 or 5 men from a squad getting blown off the map. Driving up to any side of a fortification and blasting away with the main gun seemed to do nothing but use ammo and frustrate me. So I stopped doing it. Most of my time is spent playing US - so most often main gun AFV would have been ineffective anyway. I would guess that you would have a greater chance of success if you used a 75/L70 or 88/L56 or better - but anything below the power of those guns would probably be a waste of time. I actually don't mind running into them too much any more. You can flank them (usually) and that renders them as ineffective as blowing them up. I tend to nuke them all however - just for the victory points and experience points. Word to the wise - WB tends to drop a minefield on the blind side of them in his scenarios. (I can still remember losing a couple of AFV to them in the Boccage Scenario in "From Utah to the Rhine" campaign - sneaky bugger!)

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- 11/17/2000 7:02:00 PM

Warhorse

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They are very intimidating, but not invincible, for instance, in my Hungarian campaign, my first battle against the Soviets. I bought the MG nests,(3), and 3 of the redoubt, (I think, the rectangular large ones), I was able to knock out 2 of them, after many hits with...the Toldi I main gun..20mm ATR!!!! No kidding, so it can be done

------------------ Mike Amos Meine Ehre Heisst Treue

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- 11/19/2000 8:24:00 AM

rexmonday

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You want a nasty pillbox - have a look at the turreted one in the Betio scenario. Mean critters - they have a 360 arc of fire, so no sneaking up on the blindside with these boys. Smoke will blind them somewhat, but if you do try use an engineer squad it will get spotted at 1 hex range 90% of the time and get cut up by machinegun fire. The best I could come up with against these fortresses was to keep sniping at them until I knocked out the main gun through turret hits. They make other pillboxes look like a doddle.

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- 11/20/2000 11:21:00 PM

BA Evans

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Another hint: Never shoot at something with armor (tanks, pillboxes) from less than three hexes away. Once you get within three hexes, the armor values start to get really really high because of the angles involved. If you want to shoot the pillbox, do so from at least three hexes away. It is best to blind the pillbox with smoke rounds and then move an engineer unit to the rear. Flamethrowers = crispy critters. BA Evans

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- 11/21/2000 12:20:00 AM

john g

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quote:

Slapping a fortification with indirect fire -then close assaulting with Eng Units/bazooka armed units is the preferred method of removing them for me. Most of my time is spent playing US - so most often main gun AFV would have been ineffective anyway. I would guess that you would have a greater chance of success if you used a 75/L70 or 88/L56 or better - but anything below the power of those guns would probably be a waste of time. I actually don't mind running into them too much any more. You can flank them (usually) and that renders them as ineffective as blowing them up. I tend to nuke them all however - just for the victory points and experience points.

Amen to just bypassing any forification that you come across and don't absolutely need to destroy. With a chance for a gun breakdown with every shot you fire and ammo supplies sometimes very limited, it is easier to just not kill the fort and go for the mobile units and victory hexes. Any unit that you can bypass without fighting is one less possible chance for the ai to shoot at you. The key to getting 30-1 or 40-1 victory margins isn't how many of them you kill, but how few of you that they kill. thanks, John.

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- 11/21/2000 4:09:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Some good points for thought, John...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 11/21/2000 4:09:00 AM

Wild Bill

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Some good points for thought, John...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 11/21/2000 6:04:00 AM

skukko

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My opinion of destroying bunkers goes with thoughts already said here, but I'll use this tricky method: Mg34's fire at the front of the bunker to get �t pinned(reduces coming casualties). Fire smoke with Tank to blind it and walk front of it with the infantry. Best score is blowing tenmens bunker with six handgranades, from front, where bunkers have their weak point: hole from where they shoot. If granades don't work I try satchel or flamethrowers, but usually smoke rounds are only I use. Once,just once my Tiger have killed AT-bunker with one shot. (in 'Moment of thruth'-scenario) I mean,-job can be done in many ways.

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- 11/21/2000 2:29:00 PM

JNL

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I've been slogging thru Russian defensive lines in the Watchword Freedom Campaign now for a couple of days. (Well worth the download if you haven't gotten yet.) I've found that the Tiger's main gun is a quite adequate bunker buster. I've had good success so far zapping those concrete nasties from 6 to 8 hexes away with 2 to 4 Tigers. US Army units usually require a set piece attack - so far with the German units I've been able to pretty much bludgeon pillboxes and fortifications as they pop up. Even the dreaded Anti-Tank Pillboxes have fallen in a turn or two to a platoon of Tigers in overwatch mode. I would have never thought of dueling with a fortification driving a Sherman. A group of Tigers hasn't had too much trouble with an isolated bunker or two. That being said - I still feel that when the chips are down the only sure fire method is Arty/Smoke/engineer close assualt.

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- 11/21/2000 5:17:00 PM

GrinningDwarf

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quote:

Originally posted by john g: Amen to just bypassing any forification that you come across and don't absolutely need to destroy...Any unit that you can bypass without fighting is one less possible chance for the ai to shoot at you. The key to getting 30-1 or 40-1 victory margins isn't how many of them you kill, but how few of you that they kill. thanks, John.

Ain't that the truth? My Betio scenario came out a draw because even though I possessed all of the victory hexes at the end, the game was a third over before I realized I didn't need to take out all the shoreline bunkers. Once I was past them, they wouldn't hurt me any more and there was no second wave coming in behind me to protect. Even is there had been a second wave, the thing to do would have been to get past the bunkers and get on those victory hexes. I took way too many casualties against the bunkers for too little gain.

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- 11/21/2000 7:43:00 PM

Kluckenbill

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quote:

Originally posted by BA Evans: Another hint: Never shoot at something with armor (tanks, pillboxes) from less than three hexes away. Once you get within three hexes, the armor values start to get really really high because of the angles involved. If you want to shoot the pillbox, do so from at least three hexes away. It is best to blind the pillbox with smoke rounds and then move an engineer unit to the rear. Flamethrowers = crispy critters. BA Evans

------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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- 11/21/2000 10:09:00 PM

Lou

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In George Wilson's book, *If You Survive*, he speaks about coming upon German pillboxes along the Siegfried (sp?) line. He made a reference to a special round for the Long Tom that was designed to fire point blank into the pillbox/fortification. Egads! Lou

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- 11/21/2000 10:43:00 PM

robot

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I play germans in long campaign and this is how i deal with pill boxes. When located i back off and pin with tanks. I then bring up a couple anti tank 88s. They can blast thru mosr bunkers. If they are having trouble getting the job done i then let my engineers circle them and nuke them. Fry there butt.

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- 11/22/2000 1:38:00 AM

Kluckenbill

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quote:

Originally posted by BA Evans: Another hint: Never shoot at something with armor (tanks, pillboxes) from less than three hexes away. Once you get within three hexes, the armor values start to get really really high because of the angles involved. If you want to shoot the pillbox, do so from at least three hexes away. BA Evans

For some reason my typing didn't show up the first time?? Anyway, I too have noticed this situation and thought it was just an odd coincidence. It does really seem to be harder to penetrate from very close range. One explanation I have been given is that the closeness of the target increases the angle of attack when the firing unit and target are at different elevations. Otherwise I'm at a loss to figure out why this happens. ------------------ Target, Cease Fire !

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- 11/22/2000 7:01:00 AM

GrinningDwarf

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quote:

Originally posted by Lou: He made a reference to a special round for the Long Tom that was designed to fire point blank into the pillbox/fortification. Egads! Lou

I think Stephen Ambrose mentioned this in one of his books. The Long Tom was brought up, the infantry backed away, the Long Tom said BOOM, and when the dust settled the artillery captain said, "There ya go." The infantry looked at the bunker still apparently intact and said, "You sure 'bout that?" The artillery captain said, "Hey...anyone left alive in there ain't doing anything for days!" And they didn't! (This is, of course, a paraphrase.)

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- 11/22/2000 7:30:00 AM

ncpanther

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Moment of Truth is probally one of the best scens in the game. The first one I played.(probally because its at the top of the list) I choose to play as the Russians and man what a battle!! Had one concrete bunker that was surrounded for like 5 turns and kept rallying to take shots. Gotta love that Soviet desire!! Try playing the Soviets it will keep you on the edge of your seat. Also try Redlegs Bridgehead scens from the Soviet side. another nail biter. BTW I got a draw in MOT the Jerrys never got to my rear VHs. Thanks Wild Bill for a GREAT scen!!

------------------ NC Airborne Sappers Lead the way!! SAPPERS ATTACK!!!!

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Overly strong pillboxes???