Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ?

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Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 12:34:20 PM

shane56

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As a past player of Second Front (on the amiga) amd WiR (on the PC) the AI in both cases was poor, and I would say the majority of players of this game would play against the AI as opposed to a human opponent, so when I purchase this game, I will be hoping and praying that I will be tested to the enth of my abilities by the AI ???

Will it make me break out in a cold sweet, and say that the game was hard fought out and a well deserved win for the AI ??? Hope So !!! As I would like the AI to win honestly in this new improved version.

I will confess to using a hex editor to hack the WiR game to improve the AI's odds against me, that the the rudimentry editor could not or would not do, but even with all this help I gave it, it was still easy to beat.. Stopped hacking and playing in the end, as there was no contest. Too difficult playing against a human opponent due to time availability, and time difference constraints etc. So it's the AI or nothing, so I truly hope it is good this time round..

Thankyou

Post #: 1

RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 2:42:04 PM

vonRocko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: shane_056

As a past player of Second Front (on the amiga) amd WiR (on the PC) the AI in both cases was poor, and I would say the majority of players of this game would play against the AI as opposed to a human opponent, so when I purchase this game, I will be hoping and praying that I will be tested to the enth of my abilities by the AI ???

Will it make me break out in a cold sweet, and say that the game was hard fought out and a well deserved win for the AI ??? Hope So !!! As I would like the AI to win honestly in this new improved version.

I will confess to using a hex editor to hack the WiR game to improve the AI's odds against me, that the the rudimentry editor could not or would not do, but even with all this help I gave it, it was still easy to beat.. Stopped hacking and playing in the end, as there was no contest. Too difficult playing against a human opponent due to time availability, and time difference constraints etc. So it's the AI or nothing, so I truly hope it is good this time round..

Thankyou

Let's be real here. You and I both know the AI will suck.There is not one game, of this scale, that has a good AI. I don't think this will be any different.

(in reply to shane56)

Post #: 2

RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 4:21:39 PM

TheWombat_matrixforum

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In all of these types of games, the enjoyment one gets out of the AI depends hugely on your expectations and your conception of what an artificial opponent is supposed to be. As a veteran of Grigsby games dating back to the early 1980s, across multiple platforms, I've always managed to enjoy the games solo even when (as was usually the case) an objective measure of the AI's tactical or strategic abilities would find them wanting. Maybe it's because I (mis)spent my youth playing board wargames solitaire, given the difficulty in finding reliable opponents, but I approach most historical computer wargames with a sort of solo player's mentality. It's the process, not the result, that matters.

So I don't go in thinking that the AI has to be a veritable Manstein or Zhukov; I'd settle for simply presenting me with a framework within which bad decisions on my part get punished and good ones are rewarded. I'm not concerned if I actually win all the time; I'm not looking for a purely competitive challenge in that regard. Rather, I'm looking for a structure within which to "play out" historical campaigns in a fashion that is intellectually satisfying. I therefore tend to refrain from using every nuance of the rules to crush the AI, but limit myself instead to things that I feel are more historically accurate or relevant. Should the AI be good enough to make such circumlocutions unnecessary? In a perfect world, sure. Should the AI be able to deliver a tense battle, with the outcome in doubt? Definitely, if we could write the script for the game industry. But I don't really use those desires as the bar for my expectations. As long as the AI doesn't do something really abysmal--routinely move every unit to the upper-left corner and pile them all into one hex, or something--I'm usually ok, in games with as much historical detail and "chrome" as this one. The simpler the game, the more apparent the AI quirks are, but the opposite is true as well. A very complex game can hide weaknesses in AI behind detailed systems, and often this helps make the experience more palatable.

None of that helps if your primary interest though is competitive play, naturally.

(in reply to vonRocko)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 4:48:14 PM

elmo3

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

...As long as the AI doesn't do something really abysmal--routinely move every unit to the upper-left corner and pile them all into one hex, or something--I'm usually ok, in games with as much historical detail and "chrome" as this one...

Nah, we fixed that bug already.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 5:27:40 PM

critter

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I disagree... I think the game should not be released untill the AI measures up. There is way to much junk out already. It shouldn't be that hard to have a game cover objectives, Spend its resources each turn, and to program stuff like Hq's, air bases and other assets to keep back and out of harms way.
In an AI game I'd like to see.
1) garrison each city and river rail crossing with a unit that doesn't move. Form defensive lines around Lenningrad and in front of Moscow with these same units.
2) keep a continues line of units in front of the human player and keeping them at the highest level by stripping assets off the garrison units not within 25 hexes or so of an attacker. Check strengnt levels before each sides turn. Filling the units that are in front on the non AI players units. Have trigger hexes that make the line fall back and incorperate the garrison units where poss.
3) Force tha attacker to surround and reduce the pockets by assigning an extra 1/3 to 1/2 of all combat losses to be re assigned to the AI force pools unless surrounded.
4) Change the Air system in an AI Game to insure every plane flies and every effort is made to insure units stay in supply.
Most of this is for the def AI. But by changing unit strenght levels at certian points in the game and pouring the rest of the resources into offensive units. It may even be possible to have the AI take the offensive.

My .02 worth

(in reply to TheWombat_matrixforum)

Post #: 5

RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 6:29:47 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: TheWombat

So I don't go in thinking that the AI has to be a veritable Manstein or Zhukov; I'd settle for simply presenting me with a framework within which bad decisions on my part get punished and good ones are rewarded. I'm not concerned if I actually win all the time; I'm not looking for a purely competitive challenge in that regard. Rather, I'm looking for a structure within which to "play out" historical campaigns in a fashion that is intellectually satisfying. I therefore tend to refrain from using every nuance of the rules to crush the AI, but limit myself instead to things that I feel are more historically accurate or relevant. Should the AI be good enough to make such circumlocutions unnecessary? In a perfect world, sure. Should the AI be able to deliver a tense battle, with the outcome in doubt? Definitely, if we could write the script for the game industry. But I don't really use those desires as the bar for my expectations. As long as the AI doesn't do something really abysmal--routinely move every unit to the upper-left corner and pile them all into one hex, or something--I'm usually ok, in games with as much historical detail and "chrome" as this one.

I agree with all of the above and however poor the AI in WIR might have been, I had many hours of good play. I am sure that WiTE will have a much more competent AI, so it can only be better.

(in reply to TheWombat_matrixforum)

Post #: 6

RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 6:36:26 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: critter

I disagree... I think the game should not be released untill the AI measures up. There is way to much junk out already. It shouldn't be that hard to have a game cover objectives, Spend its resources each turn, and to program stuff like Hq's, air bases and other assets to keep back and out of harms way.

My .02 worth

The AI has to be fallable, just like humans are, war is full of mistakes and lost opportunites. The skill is in exploiting your enemies' errors, no errors - no game. Not that the AI has to be a push-over, just a little 'human'.

(in reply to critter)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 7:14:09 PM

TheWombat_matrixforum

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The goal of a realistic and challenging AI is sort of a holy grail in computer wargaming, and like the Grail of legend I rather doubt we'll see it in its entirety in our lifetimes. Critter's criteria seem relatively realistic, but the problem with lists like that is that they are either a lot harder to actually implement than they seem, or when implemented they result in predictable and stilted gameplay. As students of history we're in a lot better position to manage these battles than the poor sods who actually had to do it in real time with real lives on the line, and with very imperfect information. What's more, we generally don't have any of the intangibles driving us--the emotion and fear and ambition and sense of real gambles with real consequences that inform so many military decisions.

Yes, I certainly hope that the computer opponent in this game makes the sorts of decisions Critter is highlighting, and I hope it behaves reasonably. But I also appreciate that one person's reasonable action can be another's rash decision, and that humans fighting wars are often, um, a bit odd about how they do things. So I'm not that worried. Besides, at the rate I learn games these days (sloooowly) the complexity will probably mean I won't get to the level of exploiting the AI's weaknesses until long after I've gotten my money's worth. That's not to say that an abysmal AI would be acceptable, but my definition of "abysmal" is fairly liberal.

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Post #: 8

RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 9:25:44 PM

PyleDriver

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The AI is becoming quite good on defence. It's pluging all the holes, retreating from forming pockets, and attacking weak exposed units. Theres still room for improvment. As far as the offence theres alot of work still to be done, and is much harder to program to become effective. But as I said before, Gary is spending alot of time on it...I do agree the AI on WIR was very poor...

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/21/2010 11:47:47 PM

freeboy

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this game begs to be played h2h, but as we may want to see a great ai, without fudging that will be nearly impossible...
WE gettoooooo much info oin almost every game that really during war no one even dreamed of having... things just are not as neet and tidy as our games...
Then if one models restricted reactions, poor hq or communications players gripe about a games straightjacketing them, I know I do, it s not a simulation its a game, and to ask for an ai that will challenge a grog, straight up no fudging, is silly imo
on the other hand it is good to have out there goals, otherwise we would never venture into the land of what if and why not, those twin cities near Detroit!

(in reply to PyleDriver)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/23/2010 1:37:11 PM

shane56

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I visit a number of game forums and read the comments, and one of the most discussed topics is the AI, or lack of AI, as any game delivered without a strong working AI is severely restricted in it's appeal, and consequently how much money it is really worth and sells for, so any development time and resources spent in developing a strong AI is virtually money in the bank, as it will help to sell and more importantly keep selling this game, which I hope it will sell in large numbers so as to justify further future development.

Probably right in that we wont get a Zukhov or Lewinski (Manstein) both equal 8.5 out of 10, but should be aiming to get a Konev or Model (both 7.5 out of 10) out of the AI
Thanks

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/23/2010 1:54:20 PM

elmo3

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A lot of effort is going into the AI. It will challenge many but perhaps not everyone. There are several different levels of difficulty.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/23/2010 4:48:59 PM

freeboy

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And there is always fudging, if the ai is not tough enough for you.. add power to it... that is not so hard.... and fow makes for really intersting ai, as one gets the added depth of , what does the enemy have over there feel..
again this looks great guys and I in no way meant to say it was a poor ai, just that IA will never be a person

(in reply to elmo3)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 2:15:24 PM

KarlXII

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I agree on the importance of not neglecting the AI only becuase it will never be good enough. Most players will play solo and so requires an adequate AI to have any enjoyment of the game. I remember buying Commander - Europe at war and stopped playing after the first try because of the bad AI. I don�t want that to happen to this game.

Just because it is hard to make a good AI or that no AI is good enough is not reason not to put huge resources into trying to build the best AI to date. Nothing is more satisfying than to be impressed and outmanouvered by an AI that is not cheating.

To let the AI cheat by giving it more strength or resources is ridiculous. I never play against anyone who is cheating. The computers drawback is the lack of a deep human thinking but it can compensate that many times by its huge calculating power to compare and plan where and when to attack or defend or by calculating odds.

< Message edited by karlxii -- 1/26/2010 2:46:01 PM >

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 2:26:02 PM

thackaray

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To improve the AI to give it the feel of playing against a Human, I did suggest to the developers to digitise little Munchkins and then add them to the game.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 2:27:58 PM

Hard Sarge

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to be honest, to make it play like a human, you may as well let it cheat, most humans I have ever played, cheated there butts off any time they thought they could get away it

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 2:49:31 PM

KarlXII

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

to be honest, to make it play like a human, you may as well let it cheat, most humans I have ever played, cheated there butts off any time they thought they could get away it

Well, true enough but still.....as long as I believe they don�t

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 3:32:22 PM

Silvanski

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quote:

ORIGINAL: karlxii

To let the AI cheat by giving it more strength or resources is ridiculous.

I agree, no bonuses or combat modifiers for the AI which would inflict higher losses to the human player's troops. What can be put in place are presets like "normal AI" and "strong AI", if one wants to put modifiers in.
Lower FOW for the AI, plus the ability to detect enemy units and attempting to plug holes in the front line are needed in order to provide for a decent challenge

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 5:28:39 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: karlxii

Just because it is hard to make a good AI or that no AI is good enough is not reason not to put huge resources into trying to build the best AI to date. Nothing is more satisfying than to be impressed and outmanouvered by an AI that is not cheating.

The basic problem is that at this level of gaming there are not huge resources to put into anything, including the AI. It's the feel of the game that counts and however primitive the AI is in WIR, it still gave, and is still giving, a good gaming experience. I am looking forward to the next level of gaming experience, but I am not expecting a perfect AI, nothing in war is perfect.

(in reply to KarlXII)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 7:00:55 PM

KarlXII

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I am not expecting a perfect A.I. but I expect that it is very high up in the list of priorities. I expect the A.I. to supercede 8-bit computer games A.I from the 1980:s like Kampfgruppe, Typhoon of Steel, Fire Brigade, Second Front (1990) or you name it.

I don�t care about fancy map graphics or good sound effects, or perfectly researched historical name for every single brigade if the A.I. don�t deliver. Everything comes down to how to prioritze the resources at hand. The graphics might draw people to it but the A.I and a friendly user-interface will keep them happy with it.

(in reply to Rasputitsa)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 8:25:41 PM

Rasputitsa

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quote:

ORIGINAL: karlxii

I don�t care about fancy map graphics or good sound effects, or perfectly researched historical name for every single brigade if the A.I. don�t deliver. Everything comes down to how to prioritze the resources at hand. The graphics might draw people to it but the A.I and a friendly user-interface will keep them happy with it.

I am no expert on game development, but I would guess that most of the elements you list are easier provide and will enhance the game. However, super AI takes huge development and realistically this genre of game has a smaller, if enthusiastic group of followers. This will never be a mega-bucks part of the industry, so I will be thankful for what we get and from what the beta-testers are saying, it should be good. I enjoy WIR and like some of the quirks it has, as it brings some of the realistic chaos seen in the actual history of war.

(in reply to KarlXII)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/26/2010 8:45:10 PM

elmo3

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If you are expecting a Deep Blue quality AI that can beat the Garry Kasparov's of wargaming then you will probably be disappointed. However we are working hard to make a challenging AI and I think most players will be happy with the results.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/27/2010 1:31:44 AM

Fred98

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Every AI is poor and this one will be poor too. (except SSG�s Kharkov AI who is excellent!)

We will never get a Deep Blue. To make the AI challenging do not allow it to cheat. Do not allow it to have extra bonuses.

All you do is change the scoring. As I have mentioned in other threads, any objective might be worth 10 points per turn against a human player but against the AI it might be worth 15 points per turn.

Then, that scenario is tested and balanced and will be challenging.

*Any player who finds that scenario challenging should never play a human player. My opponents can record a loss on the ladder now and save time.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/27/2010 8:16:40 PM

vonRocko

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Hard Sarge

to be honest, to make it play like a human, you may as well let it cheat, most humans I have ever played, cheated there butts off any time they thought they could get away it

That's some crowd you're playing with. The guys I game with would never even think of cheating, it is just a game after all. (unless money is on the game)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/27/2010 11:50:34 PM

Max 86

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I have always said that the ai is primarily for the casual gamer and like others have said it is unreal to expect an ai that will challenge the everyday player that logs a lot of hours. But for the guy that gets to play maybe 2-3 times a week for a couple of hours each time, the usual ai does just fine. And by the time it gets old there is a new game of some type just waiting to be bought.

I'm not sure but would wager that most wargamers fall into the casual gamer category and thats why Matrix always pushes for an ai component in most, if not all, of their releases.

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 1/28/2010 4:28:09 PM

TheWombat_matrixforum

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While I've been wargaming for a long time, I'm pretty much a "casual" gamer in that my wargaming is exactly as mentioned, a few times a week for a few hours at a stretch. So AI play is important but I'm never going to put the hours in to "master" the game system. Therefore, it's probably a lot easier to challenge me than some of the pros on this board!

Also, I agree the AI in SSG's Kharkov is very good, as it has been in most of their games. But, and this to me is a big factor, they accomplish this IMO by tuning the AI to play the victory conditions, e.g., the game qua game, rather than to emulate historical strategies and operational parameters. Don't get me wrong, I love their games, but the challenge isn't so much in facing tactical or operational brilliance as it is in facing a computer opponent that is extremely good at using the game system to achieve victory objectives, whether or not the ensuing deployments and operations on the map bear much resemblance to anything historical. This tendency is mitigated somewhat in Kharkov, with the excellent AO system, but it's a trait I think all their games possess to some degree.

Which simply goes to show that AI in wargames is hard. No matter how you do it you're going to disappoint someone. I agree you need to try, and try hard, but the goals need to be reasonable and fit in with the overall development plan.

(in reply to Max 86)

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 2/12/2010 1:30:05 PM

elmo3

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For those of you wondering about the AI, I just got my butt kicked by the Soviet AI set to Challenging in the Typhoon scenario. Of course I was just <cough> testing for bugs rather than playing to win <cough>. The AI did a good job reforming lines after I broke through. It also counterattacked effectively once the Blizzards hit. And Gary is still working to make the AI better. Just what I need!

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 2/12/2010 3:51:47 PM

DrewBlack

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Now thats what i call excellant news we just need a competant Ai that gives us the challange anything better than the origianl is a step up!!!

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 2/13/2010 1:48:34 PM

Obsolete

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quote:

For those of you wondering about the AI, I just got my butt kicked by the Soviet AI set to Challenging in the Typhoon scenario.

Well, that does not exactly mean that the AI is any good, it just has to be a little better than the human idiot it is playing against

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RE: Honestly How Competant Will the AI be this time ? - 2/13/2010 2:08:07 PM

elmo3

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Hey fella, I resemble that remark.

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Post #: 30