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CAP Air Combat - 7/9/2002 11:08:12 PM   
bhdhtx

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: DFW
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Just wanted to comment about the way Air to Air is resolved. I still have a problem with 50 US fighters escorting 20 bombers and a Jap CAP of 5 Claudes gets thru and shoots down a bomber with 1 loss. Now to me that seems a little unreal. I know, being very knowledgable of the WWII era, that most of the Jap planes should have been shot down with maybe a lucky bomber kill. It seems that over all in an aerial combat location, the most, no matter of the number of planes sent (3-75), kills will be about 2-3. Am I worng in thinking that the ratio is correct in real life? Please think about correcting this?Let me feel good about sending an escort with my bombers that they can actually be useful and take out some of the JAPS CAP. :-) Thanks.
Post #: 1
:-) - 7/11/2002 6:22:05 AM   
bhdhtx

 

Posts: 16
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: DFW
Status: offline
Any comments?

(in reply to bhdhtx)
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- 7/11/2002 7:58:11 AM   
dgaad

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 7/25/2001
From: Hockeytown
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People, including myself, tend to forget (if they ever knew) that the ratio of planes damaged and shot down to those engaged is very very low, and was throughout the war. We tend to forget because we've all played those fabulous flightsims where you can shoot down 12 Stukas single handedly over the Channel.

Battle of Britain : on days when upwards of 1000 fighter planes were engaged at one time, you would get on average about 15-30 fighters damaged and an equal number shot down (this is a total for both sides). There might have been more than one engagment per plane, maybe less. Basically, this works out to a damage+shootdown/engagement ratio of about 4-6 to 100. Restated, during the Battle of Britain you would expect, on average, to get 4 planes either damaged or shot down for every 100 plane to plane fighter engagements.

I used the Battle of Britain as an example because it has the most data. There are variations. Later in the war, when CAP control was more effective, and pilots were better trained and more experienced, the ratio could go up.

Look at it another way : Take a look at some of the aces in the war like Bong or Sakurai or some British or German aces. Sure, they have impressive stats, 20, 40 or more shot down. But how many sorties did they go on? How many engagements did they fight? Its in the hundreds for most of them, some more than 2000 (the Germans and Japanese in particular had very large sortie numbers for their aces). They fit this 4-6 to 100 ratio too. The vast majority of pilots, if they had an air-to-air engagement, were very lucky just to get a HIT, much less a shootdown.

If you are talking about bombers, the ratio is a bit higher because bombers are basically slower and larger, making a bigger target. On some of the massive allied air raids in Europe where you had over a thousand bombers, several hundred escort, there would be maybe a few dozen or if they (the defending fighters) were lucky around 100 fighters attempting to engage these formations at one time, or over the course of several waves. Still, most of these types of attack still fit the basic rule of thumb ratio 5 to 100.

There were notable exceptions to this ratio rule of thumb, such as the Great Marianas Turkey Shoot and some of the big bomber raids like Schweinfurt, but thats just it; they were exceptions.

Don't expect all of the air encounters in the game to rack up large numbers of kills all at once, history didn't play that.

_____________________________

Last time I checked, the forums were messed up. ;)

(in reply to bhdhtx)
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Results varies a lot (as IRL?) - 7/12/2002 2:12:52 AM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
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I've seen 14 Vals lose 13 planes against 30-40 fighters but I've also seen 6 Ki-48 only lose one aircraft against ca 20 fighters. All in all I think it's probably working like it did in real life.
I suspect that even with radar the readouts from the screens and i the information passed on to the fighters wasn't very accurate and if you add a few clouds for the bombers to hide in it's not that easy to find them before it's too late.
In your example with the Claudes I suspect that if they managed to sneak up on the attack and then dive straight through the bomber formation and run away you could get results like that.
Most of the examples we have of funny results are single happenings. I imagine that if you want reliable statistics on how the game really behaves you have to repeat exactly the same attack at least a hundred times.

/BPRE

(in reply to bhdhtx)
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