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Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 4:07:31 PM   
USSLockwood

 

Posts: 543
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Status: offline 		By 1945 the Wehrmacht was hamstrung by Fuhrer orders forbidding almost any action on the
divisional or higher level without express Fuhrer approval. Will this be reflected in the
game, perhaps by a reduced movement rate?

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 4:21:20 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Unknown.  There have been discussions about those types of rules but no decisions yet AFAIK.  Some players might like them and some would certainly not like them and want them to be optional.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 7:24:25 PM   
Rasputitsa


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Status: offline 		If such restrictions were included they should be optional, I would not want to have to entirely re-run the failures of the past, surely the idea is to be able to try out alternative strategies.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 8:36:58 PM   
wiking62


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

If such restrictions were included they should be optional, I would not want to have to entirely re-run the failures of the past, surely the idea is to be able to try out alternative strategies.


I definately agree. The whole reason for playing these games is for us to try and change history. If we are restricted to purely historical command decisions we might as well not play the game, as the end result is inevitable.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 10:24:22 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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Status: offline 		Perhaps it could kick in once the Soviets were west of the Visutla, say anytime after 1944. Wouldn't make much sense if the Germans were winning the war.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 10:29:07 PM   
B455

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

If such restrictions were included they should be optional, I would not want to have to entirely re-run the failures of the past, surely the idea is to be able to try out alternative strategies.


I definately agree. The whole reason for playing these games is for us to try and change history. If we are restricted to purely historical command decisions we might as well not play the game, as the end result is inevitable.



Exactly. Players are either Hitler or Stalin here, politics aside. It should be those virtual "leaders/commanders" within the game who virtually curse your decisions as the high commander...

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/25/2010 10:48:49 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
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Status: offline 		Players are not Hilter or Stalin in the game. Your commanders of either OKH or STAKA...

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 12:12:34 AM   
USSLockwood

 

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Status: offline 		Sure, but if I'm playing as Stalin, I'd want the historical German command and control effects created by the Soviet approach to Berlin. Possibly there were similar effects as the Germans approached Moscow.
quote:

ORIGINAL: B455


quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412


quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

If such restrictions were included they should be optional, I would not want to have to entirely re-run the failures of the past, surely the idea is to be able to try out alternative strategies.


I definately agree. The whole reason for playing these games is for us to try and change history. If we are restricted to purely historical command decisions we might as well not play the game, as the end result is inevitable.



Exactly. Players are either Hitler or Stalin here, politics aside. It should be those virtual "leaders/commanders" within the game who virtually curse your decisions as the high commander...




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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 7:22:27 AM   
Muzrub


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From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
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quote:





Rasputitsa:if such restrictions were included they should be optional, I would not want to have to entirely re-run the failures of the past, surely the idea is to be able to try out alternative strategies.

hart2412:I definately agree. The whole reason for playing these games is for us to try and change history. If we are restricted to purely historical command decisions we might as well not play the game, as the end result is inevitable.






I argued this point for a long time here- I pushed for the inclusion of Production, even if its only included in an update later, or even as an option to turn on or off!

But alas- people seem to want a game that is 100% historically accurate including 99% of the historical outcome!



< Message edited by Muzrub -- 2/26/2010 7:25:20 AM >

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 7:56:01 AM   
vinnie71

 

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Status: offline 		I would tend to agree for some restrictions being placed in historical scenarios like 6 Army being relatively static in Stalingrad, but to tie down the whole front for the whole war would be bad. Then playing the game would become an exercise in futility. At first the Soviets would be tied down (1941) then the Germans would. Let's face it, if the human player gains the upper hand as the Germans in the first two years of the war, he would be artificially hamstrung for the rest of the war. That would be ridiculous...

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 8:38:39 AM   
Sentinel Six

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Muzrub

But alas- people seem to want a game that is 100% historically accurate including 99% of the historical outcome!



historically accurate - Except for a huge portion of the front (Karelia, Murmansk) being excluded!!

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 8:49:31 AM   
Muzrub


Posts: 1780
Joined: 2/23/2001
From: Australia, Queensland, Gold coast
Status: offline 		Your preaching to the choir son!

Its 2010- and I expect that game companies should understand that!
I know the lads made a great game two decades ago- a game I loved, but alas its time to move on and not rest on laurels.

Man I want to playing this game for many years to come like WIR- but-

< Message edited by Muzrub -- 2/26/2010 8:50:58 AM >

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You better watch out,
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I've looked over Iraq, and i have seen
Things are not what they seem.


Matrix Axis of Evil

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 9:17:57 AM   
Rasputitsa


Posts: 2903
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From: Bedfordshire UK
Status: offline 		I have always thought of these games, WIR and WitE, as being played as though Hitler has succumed to one of several assassination plots and Stalin has been overthrown. Both German and Russian high commands are now free to make purely military decisions, but within the constraints of each nations production and manpower, which neither high command has full control. I know it is a great loss for many people, but I can live without control of production.

Scenarios can be set to lock forces into historical situations, but I would like to see if 6th Armee can breakout from Stalingrad. It would be nice to see a selection of both historical situations (can you do better in the same circumstances) and free scenarios to try what-if alternatives, different strategies that might have changed history.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 3:56:13 PM   
USSLockwood

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Rasputitsa

I have always thought of these games, WIR and WitE, as being played as though Hitler has succumed to one of several assassination plots and Stalin has been overthrown. Both German and Russian high commands are now free to make purely military decisions, but within the constraints of each nations production and manpower, which neither high command has full control. I know it is a great loss for many people, but I can live without control of production.

Scenarios can be set to lock forces into historical situations, but I would like to see if 6th Armee can breakout from Stalingrad. It would be nice to see a selection of both historical situations (can you do better in the same circumstances) and free scenarios to try what-if alternatives, different strategies that might have changed history.

Perhaps it could be included in the same manner that WitP included IJN submarine doctrine and USN torpedo problems, i.e, a toggle-able option. As the Soviet player I would expect that the arrival of the Soviet Army
in Germany would have some effect upon the German command and control.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 4:08:21 PM   
ComradeP

 

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Status: offline 		I expect that, just like the Germans are more effective due to Hitler being a non-issue, the Soviets will be far more effective in 1941 than they were in the real war and that many games will end up with a line the Axis won't be able to break through as early as 1942, similar to many TOAW Barbarossa scenarios.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 4:14:07 PM   
vinnie71

 

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Status: offline 		Wouldn't be a bad idea. It is important that players are left unfettered in any way, unless they decide to be so.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 7:08:45 PM   
Balou


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Status: offline 		Right, have a look at the ongoing AAR. It's mid-August and the Axis seems to be behind schedule. Don't know about aggressiveness of the human player and other factors that might be important, but to me the AI looks great so far.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 9:51:17 PM   
Pford

 

Posts: 235
Joined: 11/10/2006
Status: offline 		Perhaps, the Axis appears to be behind schedule because Elmo chose challenging AI settings, handicapping himself to a degree.

Also, during the real campaign the Soviets, under pressure from Stalin, launched countless feckless and counter-productive attacks on the advancing Germans. Formations ended up exposed and cut off. Since the player is master of his own fate in the game, the Soviets don't suffer from this friction and can, more frequently than was the case, conduct orderly withdrawals.

The arguments in favour of abstracting out Hitler and Stalin are understandable and may make a better gaming experience but without these constraints, it seems to me, you'll get something that only imperfectly recalls the War in the East. If Matrix decides to include some kind of parameters reflecting this in the form of optional rules, great, but don't delay the game! :;

< Message edited by Pford -- 2/27/2010 7:08:42 PM >

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 2/26/2010 10:42:08 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
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Status: offline 		It does seem likely that the difficulty settings Elmo has selected contribute to the relatively slow advances as described in the AAR, especially as the German forces are also somewhat handicapped if I interpreted the difficulty settings screenshot correctly.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/2/2010 7:18:47 PM   
Capt Cliff


Posts: 1791
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Status: offline 		Eliminating any influence of either Hitler or Stalin from the CinC makes the game non-historical. Both army staffs had to keep looking over there shoulder being sure they did a good job or they would be leading an infantry assualt with an SMG at the front.

Their presents, Hitler and Stalin, should not be excluded. It's a handicap for both general staffs, like going into battle with one boot on and one boot off. It was part of the historical make-up of the times. Perhaps just randomly preventing a corp from being moved, first one then two then three as things get bad. The whole game as it stands now is a what if scenerio! What if Hitler and Stalin went to the fishing for 4 years!! We play games for the historical simulation and then have option buttons for the what if scenarios.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/2/2010 7:50:30 PM   
elmo3

 

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Status: offline 		Players don't control production or unit withdrawals, both of which could be attributed in part to Stalin or Hitler.  Leaders may be removed by Hitler or Stalin for doing poorly.  You can replace leaders too but higher initiative rated leaders are less likely to be on the promotion list because Stalin does not like initiative.  Political rating affects various things about leaders which could indirectly be attributed to Stalin and Hitler.

Some players will say that is just the right amount of intervention from above, some will say it's not enough, and some will say too much.  Ultimately it's up to the designers to draw the line since it's their game.


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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/2/2010 8:41:26 PM   
B455

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Players are not Hilter or Stalin in the game. Your commanders of either OKH or STAKA...


Well, because there exists no superior command with its demands, orders, directives or whatever, above players I think it makes sense to say that players step in boots of either Hitler or Stalin. Politics and in addition production aside as I said. Semantics...

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/2/2010 8:51:00 PM   
B455

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pford

Also, during the real campaign the Soviets, under pressure from Stalin, launched countless feckless and counter-productive attacks on the advancing Germans. Formations ended up exposed and cut off. Since the player is master of his own fate in the game, the Soviets don't suffer from this friction and can, more frequently than was the case, conduct orderly withdrawals.



I believe this was also general Soviet doctrine of the time. With hindsight we know the Red Army was not capable of conducting such counter-attacks. I don't know if this could be modelled by just having a number of Soviet formations becoming "frozen" (could not be moved) for a turn or so in the beginning weeks of the -41 campaign?

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/3/2010 11:31:57 PM   
Fred98


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quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver
Players are not Hilter or Stalin in the game. Your commanders of either OKH or STAKA...


Yes and the command and control of the Soviets improved as the war went on.

In another game, this improvement is represented by changing the Combat Result Table (“CRT”)

Each country has it’s own CRT

The CRT changes over the length of the war.

It makes the Germans very good in 1940 and the Russians and very good in 1944-45.

-

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/4/2010 1:46:52 AM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: B455

I believe this was also general Soviet doctrine of the time. With hindsight we know the Red Army was not capable of conducting such counter-attacks. I don't know if this could be modelled by just having a number of Soviet formations becoming "frozen" (could not be moved) for a turn or so in the beginning weeks of the -41 campaign?



There are a number of first turn rules that affect both sides, generally making it easier for the Germans to attack and harder for the Soviets to respond.


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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/4/2010 3:04:17 AM   
PyleDriver


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From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Morale reflects that in the game. German morale goes down as the war goes on, and Soviet morale goes up. Morale effects so much in battle results...

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/4/2010 3:44:18 PM   
Phenix

 

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Status: offline 		But Morale doesnt go down if Germany is winning i hope? that would be illogical

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/4/2010 5:11:05 PM   
elmo3

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Phenix

But Morale doesnt go down if Germany is winning i hope? that would be illogical


Think of it as war weariness for the Germans and national pride for the Soviets. Now there may be a sudden death win for the Germans, that has not been decided yet.

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RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/4/2010 6:09:10 PM   
B455

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: elmo3


quote:

ORIGINAL: Phenix

But Morale doesnt go down if Germany is winning i hope? that would be illogical


Think of it as war weariness for the Germans and national pride for the Soviets. Now there may be a sudden death win for the Germans, that has not been decided yet.


Perhaps this coul be connected to casualties/losses in general and of course occupied/liberated cities?


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Post #: 29
RE: Late War Command and Control - 3/4/2010 6:12:51 PM   
HMSWarspite

 

Posts: 1401
Joined: 4/13/2002
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Status: offline 		The issue everyone forgets with these games is the time needed to design and code everything. Would I like the game to cover more? of course. I would like the entire war in Europe on this scale, with production, R & D and everything. Plus player aids that mean I can have instant summaries and data mining etc. But I know there are only so many man hours available to produce these things. Scope creep (or not setting a manageable scope to begin with) is a major source of vapourware. I want to play the game I have seen  in the AAR rather than never see the AE edition (WitP reference :) - and look how long that upgrade took! )

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