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CAP Question on Altitude - 3/5/2010 6:38:54 PM   
seaforth7

 

Posts: 76
Joined: 8/12/2007
Status: offline 		So I had 20 p-40s over Manila 40% cap at 15,000. 18 Zeros came in on a sweep at 22,000, from the log it seems my planes scrambled to the higher altitude where they easily lost out to the Zeros, scratch 10 p-40s.

Question is, is there a way to keep your own planes at the lower altitude when responding to a sweep?

cheers
Post #: 1
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/5/2010 8:20:16 PM   
jetjockey


Posts: 256
Joined: 11/23/2009
Status: offline 		The only altitude you can keep your fighters is wheels-on-the-ground.

(in reply to seaforth7)
Post #: 2
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 8:58:26 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: seaforth7

So I had 20 p-40s over Manila 40% cap at 15,000. 18 Zeros came in on a sweep at 22,000, from the log it seems my planes scrambled to the higher altitude where they easily lost out to the Zeros, scratch 10 p-40s.

Question is, is there a way to keep your own planes at the lower altitude when responding to a sweep?

cheers




the only way to respond would be to have your P-40 higher than the Zeroes. You would still lose early on, but being higher and therefore diving on the enemy will decrease your losses and increase your kills (but you will surely still lose against a sweep with high exp Zeroes vs your low exp P-40). Problem is, that the Zeroes have a higher ceiling than your P-40 (32.000ft vs 29.000ft IIRC) therefore the end result would be your fighters at 29.000ft and the Zeroes at 32.000ft, with the same result, a slaughter of your P-40. Oscars aren´t needed in this case, they can go up to 38.000ft which is higher than anything Allied with guns can fly early on, this won´t change until the P-38E in May (very limited numbers). You will have to wait until early/mid 43 to see more fighters arrive that can go higher than the IJAAF fighters.

Lots of discussion on this on the forum already.

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RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 9:21:37 AM   
Brady


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From: Oregon,USA
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I am begining to think this whole altitude thing is a bit over stated with regard to sweeps. Fghters still kick but regardless of weather they have a hight advantage or not when they are on Sweeps. Provided their not being unduly penalised with fatigue at range.

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Post #: 4
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 10:01:08 AM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady



I am begining to think this whole altitude thing is a bit over stated with regard to sweeps. Fghters still kick but regardless of weather they have a hight advantage or not when they are on Sweeps. Provided their not being unduly penalised with fatigue at range.



not in my games, can be seen in my AAR too. Recent engagement of P-38 at 39.000ft sweeping Oscars at 38.000ft was 10:0 for the P-38 during the "dive" (which ONLY is a result of the alt advantage), the "dive" ended at some point due to too many Oscars in the air and then the Oscars got the "dive". Result? 3:0 for the Oscars. I´m not arguing here if it´s right or wrong, just pointing out a result (one of many). So the altitude factor is definetely not overstated IMO. It´s HUGE in the game, therefore a hell a lot of PBEMs with all fighters flying at their ceiling. Again, not arguing here if it´s right or wrong (I do have an oppinion on that though), only pointing out to the original poster what he can do to minimize his losses. Works everytime in my games so not just an occasional happening. Alt is the major factor in fighter vs fighter in my games. No testing, just playing. And playing is enough to see this obvious major advantage.

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RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 10:34:39 AM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		I did 20 tests in a test scenario based on Coral sea and while there is a bias for the bounce it is not as bad as its looks.

Tests where P-40 VS Zero Same level of experience but differant altitudes, Same range from base. Will be editing it a ttle more and then I will post the scenario in the mod secition so anybody who wants to test a scenario can do it himself. BTW testing is boring. Results were in favour of the plane that was sweeping.

Forgot to say i tested it vs AI not player to player.

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Post #: 6
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 3:50:55 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
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In my Human vs Human games is whear I am seeing that the main factor is not the alt. but the sweep. That is I can get more or less the same efect even if I am at the same Alt as my aponet as I can if I have an Alt. advantage over him.

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Post #: 7
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 3:54:59 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


In my Human vs Human games is whear I am seeing that the main factor is not the alt. but the sweep. That is I can get more or less the same efect even if I am at the same Alt as my aponet as I can if I have an Alt. advantage over him.



and what if he´s got an altitude advantage? In my AE version the one that gets his fighters to "dive" on the enemy usually gets the "fire from behind" and this usually is deadly. There is no other factor that gets you the "fire from behind" in my games.

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Post #: 8
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 4:11:08 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		The Bounce effects circa 10-15% of engagements when there is an altitude difference according to my calculations, and this is when sweep is used. Now give me a couple of days to get home and i will post the test scenario and anybody can test these effects of altitudes during engagements.Basically the test scenario will be an empty map with 2 squadrons with equal pilots and what you have to do is edit it to your liking.


< Message edited by che200 -- 3/6/2010 4:12:58 PM >

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Post #: 9
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 5:43:28 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

The Bounce effects circa 10-15% of engagements when there is an altitude difference according to my calculations, and this is when sweep is used. Now give me a couple of days to get home and i will post the test scenario and anybody can test these effects of altitudes during engagements.Basically the test scenario will be an empty map with 2 squadrons with equal pilots and what you have to do is edit it to your liking.



che200 this would be great!

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Post #: 10
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 5:55:54 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
Joined: 10/25/2002
From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline
Thier is a chance of course a small one that they will get the jump on them, but their are a lot of variables to the whole Alt. advantage thing, even ones that can work out badly for the one with the altitude advantage.

Again I belave as che200 has pointed out that posabality that the Altitude advantage will play a signafagant role in the out come pales when compared to the fact that the sweep is providing a tremendious advantage aganst CAP. The CAP is almost certainly engaged picemeal aganst the wholy intact sweeping Fighters.

The main isue imo is that the Sweep is far to consistant in its abality to find and engage the enemy CAP and destroy it picmeal.

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Post #: 11
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/6/2010 5:58:00 PM   
chesmart


Posts: 908
Joined: 1/14/2007
From: Malta
Status: offline 		Give me a few days to clean up the scenario and I will post it.

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Post #: 12
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/7/2010 12:27:48 AM   
loyalcitizen


Posts: 241
Joined: 2/9/2004
Status: offline 		Is there any penalty for flying CAP or Sweep at max altitude all the time?

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Post #: 13
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/7/2010 2:38:55 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

Posts: 1265
Joined: 2/17/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: seaforth7

So I had 20 p-40s over Manila 40% cap at 15,000. 18 Zeros came in on a sweep at 22,000, from the log it seems my planes scrambled to the higher altitude where they easily lost out to the Zeros, scratch 10 p-40s.

Question is, is there a way to keep your own planes at the lower altitude when responding to a sweep?

cheers

quote:

The only altitude you can keep your fighters is wheels-on-the-ground.


Which is really stupid when you think about it. The "bounce" implies that you are jumping your opponent from above..., but in the game it seems that he is jumping you from below. So why are you getting an advantage?

(in reply to seaforth7)
Post #: 14
RE: CAP Question on Altitude - 3/7/2010 3:18:42 AM   
witpqs


Posts: 26087
Joined: 10/4/2004
From: Argleton
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: seaforth7

So I had 20 p-40s over Manila 40% cap at 15,000. 18 Zeros came in on a sweep at 22,000, from the log it seems my planes scrambled to the higher altitude where they easily lost out to the Zeros, scratch 10 p-40s.

Question is, is there a way to keep your own planes at the lower altitude when responding to a sweep?

cheers

quote:

The only altitude you can keep your fighters is wheels-on-the-ground.


Which is really stupid when you think about it. The "bounce" implies that you are jumping your opponent from above..., but in the game it seems that he is jumping you from below. So why are you getting an advantage?


Mike, he just means that the only way to keep your CAP from being suckered into a slaughter by the other guys sweep is to keep them on the ground!

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 15
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