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Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list?

 
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Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 7:17:04 PM   
bclemans

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		I like the ability to disband poor performing divisions, like the Luftwaffe field divisions as mentioned in another thread.

Is it possible to list all the German divisions (for the Eastern Front) and their availability date at this forum? If I remember correctly, I think the WIR's manual included a table.

The reason I ask is that some of the divisions (for the Eastern Front) were not included in WIR, such as some late war SS divisons and army panzer divisions. I understand that some of these divisions were created at battalion size / less than divisional size. However, since it was mentioned that the Soviet's has the ability to create new formations, it is only fair that the Germans are given all the destinated divisions - regardless whether they are understrength or not.

And whether they are "understrength or not" depends on the progress of the game (from the replacement pool). So if the replacement pool can handle these divisions, they should be allowed to be built up over time.

If it is too much trouble to provide the list at this point, I will be willing to type my list of "no show" late war German divisions for your review. Thanks
Post #: 1
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 7:32:04 PM   
Hard Sarge


Posts: 22741
Joined: 10/1/2000
From: garfield hts ohio usa
Status: offline 		don't worry too much, there is a lot more under the hood of this game, then with the old WIR

there is also a lot more "good" OOB info around now, then way back then

offhand, I can't say that every unit is going to be there, but I think we got most of them in one form or another

not sure if we can show off OOB lists until later on, still is a WIP

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 9:49:07 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Currently undergoing a review and revision of the scenarios on all German units. The intent is that every on-map combat unit of brigade and division strength is represented in the game if it can be documented that the unit participated. Every construction, pioneer, nebelwerfer, artillery, panzerjager, stug, heavy panzer battalion that saw action are also included. Keep in mind that the documentation on many of these smaller units are spotty at best. I have found that documentation for the 41 and 42 campaigns are great. The 43 Kursk campaign documentation is great for the central forces involved in the offensive. The documentation goes to almost completely obscure in 44 and then gets worse. Some late war units are included such as named infantry (Barwald, Koslin) and panzer divisions (Holstein, Clausewitz) and they will arrive several months before the war ends at almost minimal strength. It will be up to the player to decide to keep these units and let them fill out with equipment from their equipment pool or disband them and let the equipment focus on the the standard line units. If you want to throw out some units in this thread and see if they are in the game, I would be happy to look them up for you. If you find a unit that isn't in the game that should be and the documentation is there, I will get them added.


Trey

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 10:08:50 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Hi Trey,

Are the following units in the game (all late war):

Division Denecke
Division Hela Ost
Division Matterstock
Division Pomerania
Division Rägener
Panzer-Division Jüterbog
Panzergrenadier-Division Kurmark
Panzer-Division Müncheberg
Panzer-Division Schlesien
232. Panzer-Division
233. Panzer-Division
 
Probably have more to follow.

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Post #: 4
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 10:17:17 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		A few more:

Division z.b.V. 607 
Division z.b.V. 608
2. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Division
30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division
32. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division 30 Januar
33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne
35. SS- und Polizei-Grenadier-Division
36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
37. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Lützow
38. SS-Grenadier-Division Nibelungen

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Post #: 5
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 10:58:34 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Yes to all except Hela. I don't have any information on that one. These units arrive in early '45 at 5% strength.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Hi Trey,

Are the following units in the game (all late war):

Division Denecke
Division Hela Ost
Division Matterstock
Division Pomerania
Division Rägener
Panzer-Division Jüterbog
Panzergrenadier-Division Kurmark
Panzer-Division Müncheberg
Panzer-Division Schlesien
232. Panzer-Division
233. Panzer-Division
 
Probably have more to follow.



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Post #: 6
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/6/2010 11:14:54 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Yes to almost all.

No to:

607th (no listing of combat subordinate units that I can find)

2nd Cossack Division (Not enough information on its combat role. I saw it took part in actions in Yugoslavia and Hungary but not enough specifics to warrant inclusion.)

30th SS - shows it was assigned to the west in '44 and then back at Grafenwohr. Records do not indicate that it served with combat units in the East that I can find. It also went through several periods of reorganization and disbandings and never reached division strength. Used to form cadres of the 38th SS and 600th Infantry Division which are in game.

Trey




quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

A few more:

Division z.b.V. 607 
Division z.b.V. 608
2. Kosaken-Kavallerie-Division
30. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
31. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division
32. SS-Freiwilligen-Grenadier-Division 30 Januar
33. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS Charlemagne
35. SS- und Polizei-Grenadier-Division
36. Waffen-Grenadier-Division der SS
37. SS-Freiwilligen-Kavallerie-Division Lützow
38. SS-Grenadier-Division Nibelungen



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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/7/2010 9:19:44 AM   
Rhetor

 

Posts: 117
Joined: 1/31/2005
From: Gdansk, Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Yes to all except Hela. I don't have any information on that one.



Since Hela Peninsula is so thin a stretch of land that it hasn't even been included on the campaign map, would it be prudent to include this "Division"?

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Post #: 8
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 12:50:08 AM   
bclemans

 

Posts: 13
Joined: 2/4/2010
Status: offline 		The partial list above is impressive!

In WIR, the Brandenburg division doesn't have any armor. I read that the division has a Stug brigade and a Pz Jager Abt in 44' & 45' (source: Squardon/Signal publication's "Panzer Grenadier division Grossdeutschland").
The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade, Fuhrer Begleit Brigade along with the other divisions mentioned on this tread have some armor components, I hope the game will include the armor along with the divisions (at 5% strength or appropriate) as well. Thanks.

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Post #: 9
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 2:31:01 AM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		All of the units you refer to make an appearance. Fuhrer Grenadier shows up as Brigade in the late summer of '44, withdraws, and then returns as a full division in early '45. Fuhrer Begleit and Brandenburg are also included and have armor. They show up considerably better armed than those training divisions earlier in the post but not at full strength.

Trey


quote:

ORIGINAL: bclemans

The partial list above is impressive!

In WIR, the Brandenburg division doesn't have any armor. I read that the division has a Stug brigade and a Pz Jager Abt in 44' & 45' (source: Squardon/Signal publication's "Panzer Grenadier division Grossdeutschland").
The Fuhrer Grenadier Brigade, Fuhrer Begleit Brigade along with the other divisions mentioned on this tread have some armor components, I hope the game will include the armor along with the divisions (at 5% strength or appropriate) as well. Thanks.




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Post #: 10
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 11:28:32 AM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Hi Trey,

I think the Rägner Division should enter the game at higher than 5% strength due to it's composition as listed below:

Fischer Grenadier Regiment
Becker Grenadier Regiment
Petersdorf Grenadier Regiment
Rägner Panzerjäger Company
Rägner Feldersatz Company
Rägner Fusilier Company
Rägner Pioneer Company
Supply Troops

< Message edited by hart2412 -- 3/8/2010 11:37:34 AM >

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Post #: 11
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 11:30:25 AM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Division Matterstock also had three infantry regiments:

Otwarka Regiment
533th Ersatz Grenadier Regiment
Teermann Regiment

(in reply to wiking62)
Post #: 12
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 11:36:50 AM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		Panzer Division Jüterbog composition:

Mapping Detachment (mot)

Escort Company (mot)

Infantry Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Flak Platoon (self-propelled)

Military Police Detachment (mot)

Jüterbog Panzer Battalion

Staff Company

3 x Company

Panzer Maintenance Platoon

Panzer Supply Company

Jüterbog Panzergrenadier Regiment

Staff Company

Signals Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Battalion

Supply Company

2 x Company (half-track)

Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Battalion

Supply Company

3 x Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Heavy Infantry Gun Company

Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Mixed Panzer Company

Jagdpanzer Battery

Panzerjäger Company (half-track)

Jüterbog Reconnaissance Company

Jüterbog Artillery Regiment

Staff Battery

Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Luftwaffe Flak Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Jüterbog Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Panzer Signals Company

Supply & Support Units

This was a pretty well organised and equiped unit, so i think 5% strength is again a bit low.

Sources:
Microfilm Publication A-3356
Kurt Mehner - Die Deutsche Wehrmacht 1939-1945




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Post #: 13
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 1:21:00 PM   
PyleDriver


Posts: 6152
Joined: 4/19/2006
From: Occupied Mexico aka Rio Grand Valley, S.Texas
Status: offline 		Someone put this guy on our team, he's wearing me out with all the info. He does have a hart...

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 1:26:55 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength. They just have to build up with your own resource pool. They actually appear on-map about a month before they entered any combat historically to give the player the choice to keep the unit and refit it or disband it. What we also want to prevent is a player taking advantage of these cheap units by disbanding them and having their manpower fill into more viable units. Remember that any unit that arrives on-map doesn't have its equipment drawn from the production pool and is essentially what we call a "free production" unit. So, if we give the player twenty garrison low-quality type units fully equipped at the end of the war, a player could easily take advantage of the system, disband them all and gain a substantial "free" pool of replacement equipment for his other units.

Trey

< Message edited by el hefe -- 3/8/2010 1:27:35 PM >

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Post #: 15
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 1:35:22 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength. They just have to build up with your own resource pool. They actually appear on-map about a month before they entered any combat historically to give the player the choice to keep the unit and refit it or disband it. What we also want to prevent is a player taking advantage of these cheap units by disbanding them and having their manpower fill into more viable units. Remember that any unit that arrives on-map doesn't have its equipment drawn from the production pool and is essentially what we call a "free production" unit. So, if we give the player twenty garrison low-quality type units fully equipped at the end of the war, a player could easily take advantage of the system, disband them all and gain a substantial "free" pool of replacement equipment for his other units.

Trey


Okay, that's fair enough. I know that any decisions on many of the late war units are always going to be difficult because the quality and quantity varied so much.

Now i know the design decision i don't need to list all of the other units that i thought were too low.

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 1:38:38 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: PyleDriver

Someone put this guy on our team, he's wearing me out with all the info. He does have a hart...


Always happy to help.

Seriously, if you ever need any help with OOB's/unit details etc i have a very large source of information gathered over many years.

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Post #: 17
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 3:15:52 PM   
ComradeP

 

Posts: 7192
Joined: 9/17/2009
Status: offline 		Do you also have data on how many men are in those units? A division including a full assortment of named elements is one thing, manning them properly is something the Germans usually couldn't do that late in the war.

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 3:20:26 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ComradeP

Do you also have data on how many men are in those units? A division including a full assortment of named elements is one thing, manning them properly is something the Germans usually couldn't do that late in the war.


Agreed. Most of the late war divisions were no more than battalion/regimental strength. I do have data on unit strengths, but a lot of the late war ad hoc divisional strengths are very sketchy/unreliable. Many units existed in no more than name only.

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Post #: 19
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 3:23:12 PM   
Montbrun


Posts: 1498
Joined: 2/7/2001
From: Raleigh, NC, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: hart2412

Panzer Division Jüterbog composition:

Mapping Detachment (mot)

Escort Company (mot)

Infantry Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Flak Platoon (self-propelled)

Military Police Detachment (mot)

Jüterbog Panzer Battalion

Staff Company

3 x Company

Panzer Maintenance Platoon

Panzer Supply Company

Jüterbog Panzergrenadier Regiment

Staff Company

Signals Platoon

Motorcycle Platoon

Battalion

Supply Company

2 x Company (half-track)

Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Battalion

Supply Company

3 x Company (mot)

Heavy Company (mot)

Heavy Infantry Gun Company

Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Mixed Panzer Company

Jagdpanzer Battery

Panzerjäger Company (half-track)

Jüterbog Reconnaissance Company

Jüterbog Artillery Regiment

Staff Battery

Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Luftwaffe Flak Battalion

Staff Battery (mot)

3 x Battery (mot)

Jüterbog Pioneer Company

Jüterbog Panzer Signals Company

Supply & Support Units

This was a pretty well organised and equiped unit, so i think 5% strength is again a bit low.

Sources:
Microfilm Publication A-3356
Kurt Mehner - Die Deutsche Wehrmacht 1939-1945






Panzer Division "Juterbog" was created on 02/20/45, and absorbed by the 16. Panzer Division around 03/03/45. I think that is why the design team is giving us the option of filling up these units, or disbanding them. Most of the late-war units were of dubious quality, and poorly equipped, and couldn't wait to try and make it to the West, and surrender to the Western Allies. When reviewing original sources, it's sometimes not clear as to whether you're looking at a "planned" organization, or not. The other issue is that, just because a FP number was issued, doesn't mean that the unit existed in any sort of meaningful size.

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 3:33:50 PM   
wiking62


Posts: 141
Joined: 3/30/2006
From: England
Status: offline 		I totally agree. See my previous post.

There were though some exceptions.

The High Command had lost all touch with reality at this stage of the war and many units existed on paper only.

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Post #: 21
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 3:50:25 PM   
Theng

 

Posts: 259
Joined: 12/13/2002
Status: offline 		I found the following books helpful when it comes to German Tank units: "The Panzer Legions" by Samuel W. Mitcham Jr. For example he states, Jueterborg had barely regimental strength. The divisional staff came from the 10th Pz Brigade, the Panzer Btl came from three companies of the Panzer Lehr Btl in Kummersdorf, the PzG Rgt were two Btl plus engineer and flak unit from alarm units in Berlin. The I Btl Pz Gren Rgt Juterborg 2 arrived from Munich and joined division on March 3 but more never materialized...

anyway, you get the drift

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 6:28:24 PM   
Silvanski


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quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength.

Note that those late war "divisions" were usually well below divisional strength

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 7:03:35 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, they arrive at 5% strength and the player has the option to refit them or not from the production pool.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Silvanski


quote:

ORIGINAL: el hefe

Hart2412, its a design decision. Because they enter the map doesn't mean they don't get to full strength.

Note that those late war "divisions" were usually well below divisional strength



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Post #: 24
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 7:19:40 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		If you have had a perfect game, you can use those units to garrison Moscow

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RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/8/2010 7:20:33 PM   
Veldmaarschalk


Posts: 11
Joined: 8/30/2009
Status: offline 		Here the strength of the Jüterborg division

Panzer Division Jüterbog composition:

Staff
Mapping Detachment (mot)
Escort Company (mot)
-Infantry Platoon (4xHMG, 6xLMG)
-Motorcycle Platoon (6xLMG)
-Flak Platoon (self-propelled) (4 x 20mm FlaK)
-Military Police Detachment (mot) (5xLMG)


Jüterbog Panzer Battalion
- Panzer battalion staff (1xLMG + 2 command tanks)
- Staff Company (8xLMG + 3 20mm FlaK Vierling)
- 2 x Company (10 PzKw IV tanks each)
- 1 x Company (10 PzKw IV L tanks)
- Panzer Maintenance Platoon (4xLMG)
- Panzer Supply Company (4xLMG)

Jüterbog Panzergrenadier Regiment
- Staff Company
- Signals Platoon
- Motorcycle Platoon (4xLMG)

- Battalion
--Supply Company (4xLMG)
-- 2 x Company (half-track) (5xHMG, 30xLMG, 2x80mm mortars, 7x20mm and 2x75mm guns each)
-- Company (mot) (4xHMG, 18xLMG and 2x80mm mortars)
-- Heavy Company (tmot) (6x20mm FlaK, 2xLMG, 4x120mm mortars)

- Battalion
-- Supply Company (4xLMG)
-- 3 x Company (mot) (3xHMG, 18xLMG and 2x80mm mortars each)
-- Heavy Company (tmot) (6x20mm FlaK, 2xLMG, 4x120mm mortars)

- Heavy Infantry Gun Company (4x150mm sIG and 2xLMG)

- Pioneer Company (18xflamethrowers, 2xHMG, 12xLMG and 2x80mm mortars)

Jüterbog Mixed Panzer Company
- Jagdpanzer Battery (10xJagdpanzer)
- Panzerjäger Company (half-track) (6xSdKfz 251/22 with 75mm PaK)

Jüterbog Reconnaissance Company
- 3 x SdKfz 250/8 with 75mm guns and 12 SdKfz 234/1 with 20mm guns)

Jüterbog Artillery Regiment
- Staff Battery (2xLMG)

- Battalion
-- Staff Battery (mot) (2xLMG and 3x20mm FlaK guns)

- 3 x Battery (tmot) (4x105mm leFH and 4xLMG each)

Luftwaffe Flak Battalion
- Staff Battery (mot) (4xLMG)
- 3 x Battery (motZ) (4x88mm, 2x20mm and 2xLMG each)

Jüterbog Pioneer Company
- 2xHMG, 18xLMG and 2x80mm mortar

Jüterbog Panzer Signals Company
- 12xLMG

Supply & Support Units

Source: Georg F. Nafziger, The German Order of Battle, Panzers and Artillery in World War II

As mentioned above this division was used to reform the 16th Panzer-Division, which on march 25, 1945 had the following armour-strength

16th Panzer-Division
- 31 StuG (8 serviceable)
- 4 Pz IV L (0 serviceable)
- 16 Pz IV/70 (8 serviceable)
- 10 Pz V (9 serviceable)

Source: Die Deutsche Panzertruppe 1943 - 1945, Thomas J. Jentz.

The main question is though, should those divisions appear if you are Germany and winning the war in East ? These divisions were created from all kinds of reserve and training units, who were rushed into the frontline because the Russians were advancing. It it very unlikely that these divisions would have been formed if the Germans were still fighting on the Wolga f.e. in 1944/1945.




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Post #: 26
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/9/2010 9:43:06 PM   
jaw

 

Posts: 1045
Joined: 7/24/2009
Status: offline 		It is hard to conceive how the Axis player could be winning the War in 1945. The dynamics of the game are such that the longer the Red Army exists the less chance the Axis player has of winning. If you can't destroy the Red Army by the end of 1942, you probably can't do any better than a draw.

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Post #: 27
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/10/2010 4:30:35 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		We will try....

Since many of these late war divisions were scratch formations at best, would their theoretical strength be the same as regular divisions?

Also, German divisions underwent various resizings/reorganisations during the war. They became progressively weaker (at least in manpower and armour for Pz Div). Would these reorganisations be strictly enforced? Eg, if you manage to preserve a sufficiently large pool of panzers to maintain your average PZ Div at '41 strength in '44, would you be forced to downsize all the same?

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Post #: 28
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/10/2010 5:12:11 PM   
Great_Ajax


Posts: 4774
Joined: 10/28/2002
From: Alabama, USA
Status: offline 		Yes, the OB changes are madatory and the scratch formations are the same OBs as the regulars. I think that with adding these dozen scratch formations and also keep in mind that divisions are not withdrawn artbitarily if they were disbanded historically so you should have plenty of venues to use up that excess pool of panzers that you think you might have ;) For example, the game won't automatically withdraw those Panzer Brigades and it will be up to player to disband them or keep them. As previously discussed, I can't imagine trying to come up with hypothetical TO&Es based on different outcomes of the campaign so we have to stick with what we know. If play testing reveals a huge pool of equipment sitting idle, I am sure we would want to resolve that.

Trey



quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

We will try....

Since many of these late war divisions were scratch formations at best, would their theoretical strength be the same as regular divisions?

Also, German divisions underwent various resizings/reorganisations during the war. They became progressively weaker (at least in manpower and armour for Pz Div). Would these reorganisations be strictly enforced? Eg, if you manage to preserve a sufficiently large pool of panzers to maintain your average PZ Div at '41 strength in '44, would you be forced to downsize all the same?



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(in reply to vinnie71)
Post #: 29
RE: Some German divisions missing in WIR, provide list? - 3/10/2010 5:16:55 PM   
vinnie71

 

Posts: 964
Joined: 8/27/2008
Status: offline 		I was just suggesting a possible (or not so possible???) scenario. German divisions will be reduced drastically in 1944 so maybe only their experience could really save them. This would be especially true if the Russians start getting those corps size units in some quantity...

(in reply to Great_Ajax)
Post #: 30
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