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Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE

 
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Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:21:57 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Hi

Not a flame thread and not meant personal to start with.

Iīve complained in my AAR a couple of times already and have noticed that other players seem to experience the same. IJN patrols rarely are operational due to their service rating while Allied patrols keep on flying. The problem with flying is the fact that they crash all the time. In my PBEM, flying naval search is far more dangerous than attacking a Capped base with heavy bombers. My PBYs crash at a rate that is higher than my replacements and it is more than just annoying because the only thing I can do is keeping them grounded it seems. Same goes for bombers, the ones you could make good use of are the ones with radar (Hudson III for example - radar and nice range) but if you do, they drop out of the sky all the time, so itīs not just related to the PBYs. Naval search is deadly and every pilot being sent to a naval search squadron has a good chance to die.

Why is it this way in AE? Weīre talking about one and a halve dozen replacements per month and the way they die, Iīve got no chance to fill up existing squadrons, let alone thinking about filling up newly arrived ones. As it stands now, I could maintain four or five squadrons at full strenght.




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< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/8/2010 4:22:49 PM >

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:37:47 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
Joined: 1/26/2003
From: Vienna, Austria
Status: offline 		Maybe those affected by such extreme op losses use a combination of high percentage and max range search missions with their squads.
In those cases some pilots fly max range missions every single day.
Your PBY-5 losses look really ugly.

I limit my search range depending on what I want to cover and have not experienced these extreme results yet.


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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:38:50 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		Here are the pilots of a PBY squadron. All my squadrons are looking like this, the pilots are by far not overfatigued, which could be one of the main issues for them crashing "all the time". Using a fighter squadron (with 30% more pilots than fighters) at 50% Cap results in usually 30-50 fatigue for example. Yet when looking at all the fighters in the air with overfatigued pilots (somewhere you should draw the line between playability and realism, I canīt adjust my fighter squadrons daily) the loss rate of the fighters is by far not as high as the PBY squadronsī loss rate. Usually the Cats are lost in a landing accident. And losing more than you get is a pretty hard task to maintain at least some search.

It seems to be the naval search mission itselve that is so dangerous as Iīm losing also "a lot" of bombers when being set to nav search.




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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:40:42 PM   
castor troy


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quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Maybe those affected by such extreme op losses use a combination of high percentage and max range search missions with their squads.
In those cases some pilots fly max range missions every single day.
Your PBY-5 losses look really ugly.

I limit my search range depending on what I want to cover and have not experienced these extreme results yet.




this should result in high fatigue, but as you can see my nav search missions donīt result in high fatigue so I canīt really see this as the reason for it.

and yes, the losses really are uggly. Not that it would make any difference when Iīve run out of Cats as they canīt spot anything anyway...

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:44:30 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		I wonder if it might be the range you are using? Not sure what the range is on PBYs. I set my Mavis's to 20 (max range of 24) and seem to be OK, generally. (Except half of them are almost always grounded for maintenance.)

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Post #: 5
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:51:40 PM   
String


Posts: 2661
Joined: 10/7/2003
From: Estonia
Status: offline 		check if your search sectors overlap enemy bases, that seems to increase op losses.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:52:06 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
Joined: 7/24/2007
From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline 		The air to air losses are understandable...flying alone, in a big slow plane at low altitude. Can you say 'target practice?'.

Ops losses also understandable. Long boring flights over empty ocean lead to pilot fatigue and errors.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:53:29 PM   
LoBaron


Posts: 4776
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From: Vienna, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy


quote:

ORIGINAL: LoBaron

Maybe those affected by such extreme op losses use a combination of high percentage and max range search missions with their squads.
In those cases some pilots fly max range missions every single day.
Your PBY-5 losses look really ugly.

I limit my search range depending on what I want to cover and have not experienced these extreme results yet.




this should result in high fatigue, but as you can see my nav search missions donīt result in high fatigue so I canīt really see this as the reason for it.

and yes, the losses really are uggly. Not that it would make any difference when Iīve run out of Cats as they canīt spot anything anyway...


Didnīt mean pilot fatigue was the reason.

I guess every plane has a chance to have an engine failure or weather issue per hex covered. This could be a similar
dice roll as the accumulated sys damage for ships when they move x numbers of hex fields.

Add to this a possible op loss on landing and when you fly maximum range missions every day youd also maximize your chances for an op loss.
This could also be the reason for the Japanes players have issues with maintenance. Their planes crash less often because the
higher average experience but return damaged by the same reasons.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:54:37 PM   
khyberbill


Posts: 1941
Joined: 9/11/2007
From: new milford, ct
Status: offline 		I had problems until I reduced the amount of planes on patrol to 40% and reduced their range by 20%. Now I just dont have losses unless they are shot down. I also overstock with pilots and have some training going on at the same time. IRL patrols/combat missions rarely flew 100% of the time for 100% of the range.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:54:54 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

I wonder if it might be the range you are using? Not sure what the range is on PBYs. I set my Mavis's to 20 (max range of 24) and seem to be OK, generally. (Except half of them are almost always grounded for maintenance.)



ranges between 15 and 19 hexes. The only difference Iīve noticed in using less range was less fatigue though and fatigue seems not to be the problem when you look at the pilots. Watched my patrol squadrons quite some time already but couldnīt figure out what to do other than standing them down.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:55:37 PM   
Grfin Zeppelin


Posts: 1515
Joined: 12/3/2007
From: Germany
Status: offline 		Reducing max range seems to help alot.Also pilots under 50 xp seem to wreck alot of planes on these missions.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 4:56:17 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: String

check if your search sectors overlap enemy bases, that seems to increase op losses.



no enemy bases in the Pacific that are in range of my PBYs and most of the PBYs are stationed in the Pacific. Two squadrons in Australia that could be in range of enemy Cap but those two donīt suffer any notable losses more than other squadrons.

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Post #: 12
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:01:07 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: khyberbill

I had problems until I reduced the amount of planes on patrol to 40% and reduced their range by 20%. Now I just dont have losses unless they are shot down. I also overstock with pilots and have some training going on at the same time. IRL patrols/combat missions rarely flew 100% of the time for 100% of the range.



I tried this extensively in my AI test game, the result wasnīt really surprising to me. With the reduction of planes in the air, the op losses went down in the same ratio. So with 40% search, only 40% of the losses compared to 100% search. This isnīt really helping IMO as 40% leaves you with 5 Cats in a usual PBY squadron. 5 patrol ac isnīt a lot and not even enough when I use search arcs (which I do more or less 100% of the time). Usually Iīve got them at 70%. But again, flying alot should primarily increase pilot fat, but this doesnīt seem to be a problem. And with the excellent service rating the ac do quite well. When I use bombers on nav search then it seems to be more dangerous than sending them in against an enemy base with fighters and flak.

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Post #: 13
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:04:26 PM   
SuluSea


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Joined: 11/17/2006
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Restrict  PBYs to 10 hexes, 40 % search, 10-20% training, and 50-40% rest and your ops losses will go way down.
Also when transferring long flights run the risk of ops losses as well.

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Post #: 14
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:09:49 PM   
Admiral Scott


Posts: 625
Joined: 1/8/2001
From: Syracuse, NY USA
Status: offline 		Castor troy, are you transfering these units from base to base alot?

I have noticed frequent ops losses when transfering air units from base to base.

I cross my fingers everytime I transfer them.

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Post #: 15
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:10:39 PM   
BigJ62


Posts: 1800
Joined: 12/28/2002
From: Alpharetta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Do not the planes themselves have a fatigue factor?

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:12:09 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
Status: offline
Base Size.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:17:21 PM   
WLockard


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Base Size.


True, but it does seem strange for an amphipian aircraft to be affected by base size.

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Post #: 18
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:26:40 PM   
BigJ62


Posts: 1800
Joined: 12/28/2002
From: Alpharetta, Georgia
Status: offline 		cat fat.





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Post #: 19
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:38:04 PM   
Brady


Posts: 10701
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From: Oregon,USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: WLockard


quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Base Size.


True, but it does seem strange for an amphipian aircraft to be affected by base size.



I agree, its a theory of mine I am not shure, but I suspect its efecting Sea planes on both sides of the fence.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:38:13 PM   
Lifer

 

Posts: 384
Joined: 6/8/2003
From: Caprica
Status: offline 		If the losses are due in part to cat fat, how/when do you reduce fatigue for planes?

Greg

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 5:56:14 PM   
BigJ62


Posts: 1800
Joined: 12/28/2002
From: Alpharetta, Georgia
Status: offline 		I assume by not flying them - I have no idea what the best procedure is - yo MichaelM.

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Post #: 22
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 6:16:55 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Admiral Scott

Castor troy, are you transfering these units from base to base alot?

I have noticed frequent ops losses when transfering air units from base to base.

I cross my fingers everytime I transfer them.



guess I have not had more than two or three losses from transfers in halve a year of war.

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Post #: 23
RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 6:18:10 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Brady


Base Size.




bases differ between small (lvl 2) to big (lvl 9) and I have not seen a difference in the losses between the bases so far.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 6:19:03 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: BigJ62

cat fat.







wow, never seen that before

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 6:40:40 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		Where is this screen and how do I get it?!!

Castor, it looks like plane fatigue may be the problem. Since Mavis's are down all the time, they don't suffer the losses that the Cat's do since they seem to fly continuously.


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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 6:44:17 PM   
CapAndGown


Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
Status: offline 		OK, I found the screen. So how do I reduce the fatigue of the planes? Stand them down? Fly at a smaller percentage?

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 6:46:52 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
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quote:

ORIGINAL: cap_and_gown

OK, I found the screen. So how do I reduce the fatigue of the planes? Stand them down? Fly at a smaller percentage?


Be sure to put some on REST, at least 20%. I generally set my patrol aircraft up like this...

Naval Search Mission:

Naval Search 60%
Training 20%
Rest 20%

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 7:02:57 PM   
pad152

 

Posts: 2871
Joined: 4/23/2000
Status: offline 		Just look at the current wars, almost all army, navy, air forces loses are non-combat! Lots of fast flying low to the ground, fly in all sorts of weather, things break, wear out, pilots make mistakes, etc.

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RE: Why is naval search the most dangerous mission in AE - 3/8/2010 7:25:40 PM   
oldman45


Posts: 2320
Joined: 5/1/2005
From: Jacksonville Fl
Status: offline 		Didn't we have this conversation when the game came out? I find that using Sharks method helped. I also find that doing that with extra support on the base keeps the planes better maintained.

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