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Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - Prince of Wales & Repulse location and movement

 
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Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - Prin... - 3/14/2010 10:02:55 PM   
wneumann


Posts: 3768
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: just beyond the outskirts of Margaritaville
Status: offline 		While playing the start of Scenario 1 several times with both the Historical First turn and December 7th Surprise options turned "on" - I noticed that the AI sortied Force Z (Prince of Wales & Repulse) from Singapore on 12/7 to intercept the Japanese landings at Kota Bahru. The AI would launch the historical Japanese air attacks on Prince of Wales and Repulse during the PM air phase of 12/7 near Mersing, heavily damaging or sinking both ships.

I found it kinda curious that the two ships were repeatedly offered by the AI as "gift horses" on 12/7/41 when in fact they went down several days later...

A quick bit of research revealed that historically the Prince of Wales and Repulse were not torpedoed and sunk (by said Japanese air strikes) until 12/10/41 - and they were sunk near Kuantan.

My reference source also indicated that Prince of Wales and Repulse were both in port at Singapore on 12/7 - Force Z did not sortie for Kota Bahru until the evening of 12/8. Other information in this source stated Repulse w/ two DD's had departed Singapore for Darwin on 12/5/41 and then were recalled to Singapore (arrived back in Singapore on 12/7).

My reference: Battleship - The Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse, Middlebrook & Mahoney (1977)


Just a little "tweak" required on the AI when y'all get a chance.
Post #: 1
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/14/2010 10:09:33 PM   
chesmart


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From: Malta
Status: offline 		You forgot to calculate the dateline

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/14/2010 10:43:38 PM   
olperfessor


Posts: 98
Joined: 4/28/2003
From: New York, N.Y.
Status: offline 		Maybe in order to better recreate history, the developers just wanted to be sure that Force Z actually sortied, before the allied player went all Sir Robin and steamed them to the rear on turn 2.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/14/2010 11:21:37 PM   
Q-Ball


Posts: 7336
Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Force Z left Singapore at 23:40 on Dec 7th, Hawaii Time, IIRC. Of course it was the 8th of December in Singapore.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/14/2010 11:24:14 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200
You forgot to calculate the dateline



And you forgot to calculate the game turn. A "day/turn" consists of a 12 hour NIGHT followed by a 12 hour DAY..., so a "turn" actually runs from approximately 6pm in the evening to 6pm the following evening.

So "raised anchor" on the evening of December 7/8 (depending on the side of the dateline) still is basically turn TWO in game terms.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/14/2010 11:26:31 PM   
wneumann


Posts: 3768
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: just beyond the outskirts of Margaritaville
Status: offline 		Che,

Point well taken... The book (plus other references) mentions the Repulse and Prince of Wales under attack by Japanese air strikes approx 1100 on 12/10/41. The book I mentioned above and several other references have Force Z departing Singapore the evening of 12/8 and being at sea on 12/9 - this indicating the Prince of Wales and Repulse were at sea for approx 36 hours between their departure from Singapore and the time they were attacked and sunk.

Local (Malaya) time for the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor was about 0200 hours on 12/8/41. Based on my references, Force Z departed Singapore around 1700-1800 hours on 12/8. Assuming this is local (Malaya) time, Force Z moved out of Singapore no sooner than 15-16 hours after the attack on Pearl Harbor.

This being true... In the AE Scenario #1 "time frame" and given its historical departure from Singapore, Force Z would have sortied during the night phase at the beginning of the 12/8 game turn rather than being at sea and "available" for Japanese attack on 12/7. My playing of Campaign Scenario #1 Historical First Turn has Force Z at sea and under attack during the AM day phase of 12/7/41 - as if AE has Force Z already out of Singapore and at sea before the KB launches its attack on Hawaii.

Time zones are a tricky thing.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/14/2010 11:39:16 PM   
wneumann


Posts: 3768
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: just beyond the outskirts of Margaritaville
Status: offline 		My point being... Prince of Wales and Repulse could not have been sunk during the first "game turn".

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Post #: 7
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 12:42:02 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
Joined: 4/20/2003
From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Oh come now. It is not a freebie for the Japanese. There is absolutely no guarantee that the two ships will be sunk. Every time I win Powerball they survive just fine.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 12:43:26 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: wneumann

My point being... Prince of Wales and Repulse could not have been sunk during the first "game turn".


If the historical start set up is not to your liking - turn off the "historical" swtich and these vessels can be moved however the Allied player likes.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 12:46:22 AM   
spence

 

Posts: 5400
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Status: offline 		Perhaps the use of "Historical First Turn" sounds a lot like chalk screeching on the blackboard in this instance.

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Post #: 10
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 12:49:48 AM   
jwilkerson


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quote:

ORIGINAL: spence

Perhaps the use of "Historical First Turn" sounds a lot like chalk screeching on the blackboard in this instance.


For those who think that way we even have an editor included!


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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 3:22:37 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
If the historical start set up is not to your liking - turn off the "historical" swtich and these vessels can be moved however the Allied player likes.



I think most folks problem with this is that it appears in a scenario called "the Historical Start"..., but it's "historic" in spirit only. In actuality, it's totally a-historic to have Force Z sunk on the first turn. In a game played by two players who want to be historic, it will happen anyway..., but when the players get competitive (as most are), it comes off as forcing the Allies to do something dumb. Which no competitive player wants to do.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 3:46:30 AM   
fflaguna

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
If the historical start set up is not to your liking - turn off the "historical" swtich and these vessels can be moved however the Allied player likes.



I think most folks problem with this is that it appears in a scenario called "the Historical Start"..., but it's "historic" in spirit only. In actuality, it's totally a-historic to have Force Z sunk on the first turn. In a game played by two players who want to be historic, it will happen anyway..., but when the players get competitive (as most are), it comes off as forcing the Allies to do something dumb. Which no competitive player wants to do.



The historic start doesn't guarantee sunk BB at PH, either... and it's going to cease being historic on Dec. 8th when the players begin inputting their orders, anyway.

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Post #: 13
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 5:14:48 AM   
erstad

 

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quote:

Which no competitive player wants to do.


Well, I'm as competitive as the next guy. Maybe more so. But in my game versus Cuttlefish, once I established he was doing a fairly historical first Japanese turn, I decided to sortie Force Z to Kota Bharu just because "it felt right". (Even though in his proposed first turn rules he had specifically including the option to retreat Force Z)

Not arguing that's the only choice, just that it was my choice.

BTW, both were heavily damaged but made it back to Colombo for repairs. Both are all better now!

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 6:21:37 AM   
treespider


Posts: 9796
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From: Edgewater, MD
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
If the historical start set up is not to your liking - turn off the "historical" swtich and these vessels can be moved however the Allied player likes.



I think most folks problem with this is that it appears in a scenario called "the Historical Start"..., but it's "historic" in spirit only. In actuality, it's totally a-historic to have Force Z sunk on the first turn. In a game played by two players who want to be historic, it will happen anyway..., but when the players get competitive (as most are), it comes off as forcing the Allies to do something dumb. Which no competitive player wants to do.




And its also totally ahistoric for Admiral Tom to go scurrying for Columbo or Soerbaja.

EDIT: And in my game against Dixon (historical start ) PoW and Repulse are still terrorizing his thoughts as they make the occasional appearances in his Nells sights...they happened to survive the 1st turn.

< Message edited by treespider -- 3/15/2010 6:22:48 AM >

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 7:20:36 AM   
bklooste

 

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 12:25:24 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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Joined: 2/17/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: treespider

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: jwilkerson
If the historical start set up is not to your liking - turn off the "historical" swtich and these vessels can be moved however the Allied player likes.



I think most folks problem with this is that it appears in a scenario called "the Historical Start"..., but it's "historic" in spirit only. In actuality, it's totally a-historic to have Force Z sunk on the first turn. In a game played by two players who want to be historic, it will happen anyway..., but when the players get competitive (as most are), it comes off as forcing the Allies to do something dumb. Which no competitive player wants to do.




And its also totally ahistoric for Admiral Tom to go scurrying for Columbo or Soerbaja.




Not really. Remember the command structure is totally changed for BOTH sides after the first turn (players assume that role). New commander equals new orders..., and no requirement to be dumb.

(in reply to treespider)
Post #: 17
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 12:44:26 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		I've started a CG twice now and both times Repulse and PoW survived.  The second time (current game) PoW didn't take a hit and was able to successfully rip up a couple of TF's off of Miri a few days later.

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Post #: 18
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 4:08:05 PM   
Puhis


Posts: 1737
Joined: 11/30/2008
From: Finland
Status: offline 		I've started a CG five times. Three times both survived with none or minor damaged. Once only PoW was sunk. Only once both ships were badly damaged, but I'm not yet sure did I manage to sink them.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 4:22:01 PM   
aciddrinker


Posts: 135
Joined: 2/22/2008
From: Poland
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: wneumann

While playing the start of Scenario 1 several times with both the Historical First turn and December 7th Surprise options turned "on" - I noticed that the AI sortied Force Z (Prince of Wales & Repulse) from Singapore on 12/7 to intercept the Japanese landings at Kota Bahru. The AI would launch the historical Japanese air attacks on Prince of Wales and Repulse during the PM air phase of 12/7 near Mersing, heavily damaging or sinking both ships.

I found it kinda curious that the two ships were repeatedly offered by the AI as "gift horses" on 12/7/41 when in fact they went down several days later...

A quick bit of research revealed that historically the Prince of Wales and Repulse were not torpedoed and sunk (by said Japanese air strikes) until 12/10/41 - and they were sunk near Kuantan.

My reference source also indicated that Prince of Wales and Repulse were both in port at Singapore on 12/7 - Force Z did not sortie for Kota Bahru until the evening of 12/8. Other information in this source stated Repulse w/ two DD's had departed Singapore for Darwin on 12/5/41 and then were recalled to Singapore (arrived back in Singapore on 12/7).

My reference: Battleship - The Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse, Middlebrook & Mahoney (1977)


Just a little "tweak" required on the AI when y'all get a chance.


Don't cry and choice scenario what starts at 8th Dec. EOT for me.

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RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/15/2010 4:57:27 PM   
ckammp

 

Posts: 756
Joined: 5/30/2009
From: Rear Area training facility
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: aciddrinker


quote:

ORIGINAL: wneumann

While playing the start of Scenario 1 several times with both the Historical First turn and December 7th Surprise options turned "on" - I noticed that the AI sortied Force Z (Prince of Wales & Repulse) from Singapore on 12/7 to intercept the Japanese landings at Kota Bahru. The AI would launch the historical Japanese air attacks on Prince of Wales and Repulse during the PM air phase of 12/7 near Mersing, heavily damaging or sinking both ships.

I found it kinda curious that the two ships were repeatedly offered by the AI as "gift horses" on 12/7/41 when in fact they went down several days later...

A quick bit of research revealed that historically the Prince of Wales and Repulse were not torpedoed and sunk (by said Japanese air strikes) until 12/10/41 - and they were sunk near Kuantan.

My reference source also indicated that Prince of Wales and Repulse were both in port at Singapore on 12/7 - Force Z did not sortie for Kota Bahru until the evening of 12/8. Other information in this source stated Repulse w/ two DD's had departed Singapore for Darwin on 12/5/41 and then were recalled to Singapore (arrived back in Singapore on 12/7).

My reference: Battleship - The Sinking of Prince of Wales and Repulse, Middlebrook & Mahoney (1977)


Just a little "tweak" required on the AI when y'all get a chance.


Don't cry and choice scenario what starts at 8th Dec. EOT for me.



I agree. I love Scenario 06. Thank you, JWE!

(in reply to aciddrinker)
Post #: 21
RE: Campaign Game (scenario 1) Historical First turn - ... - 3/17/2010 2:46:45 AM   
wneumann


Posts: 3768
Joined: 11/1/2005
From: just beyond the outskirts of Margaritaville
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quote:

And its also totally ahistoric for Admiral Tom to go scurrying for Columbo or Soerbaja.


Ahistoric... While Admiral Tom made the decision to sortie Force Z from Singapore, it was not a firm decision going into 12/7. There was some discussion on 12/7 between Admiral Tom and the rest of the British command in Singapore re: whether or not to sortie for Kota Bahru. One of Admiral Tom's concerns on his decision to sortie Force Z was that someone in London would overrule him.

Also, prior to 12/7, there were extensive consultations between the British, US, and Dutch commands about combining their naval forces stationed in the Far East - this being the (ahistoric) option of choice by many non-suicidal Allied players.

I'm aware of the December 8th Campaign Scenario (#6) - it gets around this issue just fine. I had played the historical opening both ways (Scenarios #1 and #6).

Appreciate all the responses.





< Message edited by wneumann -- 3/17/2010 3:15:28 AM >

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