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subs still never miss - 3/14/2010 11:30:02 PM

Pratzen

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Joined: 3/7/2010
From: Shawnee
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Even after the patch, subs still never miss.......

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 11, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-162, hits 4

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1
CA New Orleans
DD Sterett
DD Farenholt
DD Dale
DD Worden
DD MacDonough
DD Farragut

SS I-162 launches 8 torpedoes at CV Saratoga
DD Dale attacking submerged sub ....
DD Worden fails to find sub and abandons search
DD MacDonough fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Farragut fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Dale attacking submerged sub ....
SS I-162 eludes DD Dale by diving deep
SS I-162 eludes ASW attack from DD Dale
DD Farragut fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Dale fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

Post #: 1

RE: subs still never miss - 3/14/2010 11:31:48 PM

CapAndGown

Posts: 3206
Joined: 3/6/2001
From: Virginia, USA
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I have seen subs miss. Unfortunately, only against low value targets. They seem to do fine against my carriers.

Course, they have only had a few shots. 3 in my current game (or maybe 4) and 1 of those was a dud.

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Post #: 2

RE: subs still never miss - 3/14/2010 11:36:19 PM

Shark7

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From: The Big Nowhere
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Mine miss more than they hit. It's just the luck of the draw.

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Post #: 3

RE: subs still never miss - 3/14/2010 11:37:29 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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That sub launched eight torpedos hun.

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/14/2010 11:42:15 PM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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yeah I just found a bug -
Project number S28. Slightly smaller than her predecessors and with only four torpedo tubes, three Kaidai IVs were constructed between 1929 and 1930; I-61, I-162, and I-164. I-61 was lost in a collision in 1941. I-164 was sunk by USS Triton on 17 May 1942. I-161 survived the war.[4]

So yeah your telling me this Sub fired 4 torpedoes, reloaded all 4 tubes in time, and fired 4 more with destroyers around? Might want to re-think this.

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Post #: 5

RE: subs still never miss - 3/14/2010 11:52:03 PM

Shark7

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From: The Big Nowhere
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Well, he does have a point about the number of torpedoes fired...

Attachment (1)

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Post #: 6

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 12:02:37 AM

joey

Posts: 1408
Joined: 5/8/2004
From: Johnstown, PA
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Since the last patch, my subs miss often and die just as often. I am playing a game against the AI since the first release of AE. I had lost 5 subs up to 1/1/44 as the Allies. I patched to the latest patch. Since then, I have lost on average 7 subs a week. I am now at 5/1/44. My sub fleet is ravaged. My tatics have not changed, but the patch has greatly increased the ASW. Subs are of little value now. It is a bit unrealistic if you ask me.

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Post #: 7

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 12:23:31 AM

John Lansford

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I'm finding just the opposite; it's 3/43 and my subs are decimating any TF they encounter outside of Kwajalein or Truk. Rabaul is almost completely isolated from just my subs NW of the base, and south of Davao they're sinking a tanker every day or so. I've had a few subs get hit by DC's but not lost any since the last patch was installed.

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Post #: 8

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 12:57:14 AM

Misconduct

Posts: 1864
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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

Since the last patch, my subs miss often and die just as often. I am playing a game against the AI since the first release of AE. I had lost 5 subs up to 1/1/44 as the Allies. I patched to the latest patch. Since then, I have lost on average 7 subs a week. I am now at 5/1/44. My sub fleet is ravaged. My tatics have not changed, but the patch has greatly increased the ASW. Subs are of little value now. It is a bit unrealistic if you ask me.

Where and How are you employing your submarines? So far I have 2 campaigns running, both are April 42 and I have sank 54 ships with the loss of a single submarine, the sub was a loss due to Damage taken from an ASW aircraft. Are you putting your Subs off the coast of Japan Idle? Are you running patrols?

So far I have all my submarines minimum 5 hex AWAY from Truk - and outline to 8 hex.

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 9

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 2:26:36 AM

Jim D Burns

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From: Salida, CA.
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I had one of my S boats fire all three loads of torpedoes at a lone AK off Luzon in my game. Each load scored a hit, but it kept firing until ammo was gone in a single attack. I think subs should be limited to one load per attack period.

Jim

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Post #: 10

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:17:29 AM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I had one of my S boats fire all three loads of torpedoes at a lone AK off Luzon in my game. Each load scored a hit, but it kept firing until ammo was gone in a single attack. I think subs should be limited to one load per attack period.

Jim

Honestly the historical value has to come in play, for example if the S boat scored a hit on the AK and it was dead engines, then I can understand it repeated attack. However like in the above AAR report, How exactly did this Japanese Sub fire 4 torpedoes then reload (which would take over 2 hours) and maintain another attack position?

I know Japanese subs did not have radar, so either he was amazingly lucky to figure out exactly where the american warships were heading, and assuming they were cruise speed - chances are zero for this to happen.

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Post #: 11

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:29:29 AM

Canoerebel

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From: Northwestern Georgia, USA
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I've had two subs fire a total of 12 torpedoes at CV Amagi over the past week in my November '43 PBEM game...all misses, drat it.

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Post #: 12

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:34:55 AM

joey

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From: Johnstown, PA
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I blockade the Japanese Islands and the Marianas with my subs. I usually do not lose many subs. In my latest game, I was averaging one every four months. I lost very, very few until loading the latest patch. After that (1/1/44), my lost rate when way, way up and my miss rate at least doubled.

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Post #: 13

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:41:57 AM

vonTirpitz

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From: Wilmington, NC
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I could use some of those 'never miss' subs as well for my PBEM (just don't let my opponent in on the secret).

I have no problem with a sub reloading and firing more than once in a 12 hour phase (or 24 hour turn for that matter). It isn't unprecedented IMHO.

My preference is that they do so with carriers and tankers but I can't control what my skippers deem appropriate. I'd have to revert to SH4

I bet if that lone AK was carrying a critical squadron or LCU we'd all hope our skipper(s) would shoot everything he had on board to sink it. Perhaps the allied SIGINT does more in game than fill out the text files... (Which I think would be scary to the JFB).

quote:

ORIGINAL: Jim D Burns

I had one of my S boats fire all three loads of torpedoes at a lone AK off Luzon in my game. Each load scored a hit, but it kept firing until ammo was gone in a single attack. I think subs should be limited to one load per attack period.

Jim

(in reply to Jim D Burns)

Post #: 14

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 4:04:57 AM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: joey

I blockade the Japanese Islands and the Marianas with my subs. I usually do not lose many subs. In my latest game, I was averaging one every four months. I lost very, very few until loading the latest patch. After that (1/1/44), my lost rate when way, way up and my miss rate at least doubled.

One tip I can give you, is keep your subs at least 4 hex away from the airfields, closer they are easier they are to spot from patrols going out, I did a small test and wish I could have further time to examine, but I found under 5 hex's I get 1 in 4 chances a sub will be depth charged and hit, while if I stay 4-6 hex away I average 1 in 20.

Granted right now I built Java into a fortress from hell, with 15 subs operating north of Batavia to 5 hex's off of singapore, covering every square for 5 hexs - giving me amazing detection level and experience in my subs, Balkipan also has 12 subs operating north of it for 8 hex's and to the north of Darwin additional 9 submarines east of Kendari.

Granted the AI has absolutely no ASW in this area, I am averaging almost 10 hits a turn and probably 30-40 misses.

(in reply to joey)

Post #: 15

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 5:20:09 AM

Kull

Posts: 2625
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From: El Paso, TX
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

yeah I just found a bug -
Project number S28. Slightly smaller than her predecessors and with only four torpedo tubes, three Kaidai IVs were constructed between 1929 and 1930; I-61, I-162, and I-164. I-61 was lost in a collision in 1941. I-164 was sunk by USS Triton on 17 May 1942. I-161 survived the war.[4]

So yeah your telling me this Sub fired 4 torpedoes, reloaded all 4 tubes in time, and fired 4 more with destroyers around? Might want to re-think this.

Probably FOW. It's either NOT I-162 (which explains the 8 torps), or I-162 fired four and the report says eight. Shark's post shows pretty conclusively that she only has 4 forward tubes, so that's not a glitch. It *could* be a bug, but the odds are a lot better that you're just seeing FOW in action.

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Post #: 16

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 6:28:01 AM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Kull

quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

yeah I just found a bug -
Project number S28. Slightly smaller than her predecessors and with only four torpedo tubes, three Kaidai IVs were constructed between 1929 and 1930; I-61, I-162, and I-164. I-61 was lost in a collision in 1941. I-164 was sunk by USS Triton on 17 May 1942. I-161 survived the war.[4]

So yeah your telling me this Sub fired 4 torpedoes, reloaded all 4 tubes in time, and fired 4 more with destroyers around? Might want to re-think this.

Probably FOW. It's either NOT I-162 (which explains the 8 torps), or I-162 fired four and the report says eight. Shark's post shows pretty conclusively that she only has 4 forward tubes, so that's not a glitch. It *could* be a bug, but the odds are a lot better that you're just seeing FOW in action.

Ahh yeah would explain it, I can understand FOW throwing a curve ball here, but just exactly how does FOW determine 8 torpedoes were fired? 2 Destroyers reporting the same torpedo 4 times? or just random numbers to throw someone off?

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Post #: 17

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 8:09:59 AM

castor troy

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Pratzen

Even after the patch, subs still never miss.......

AFTER ACTION REPORTS FOR Aug 11, 42
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Sub attack near Russell Islands at 112,137

Japanese Ships
SS I-162, hits 4

Allied Ships
CV Saratoga, Torpedo hits 1
CA New Orleans
DD Sterett
DD Farenholt
DD Dale
DD Worden
DD MacDonough
DD Farragut

SS I-162 launches 8 torpedoes at CV Saratoga
DD Dale attacking submerged sub ....
DD Worden fails to find sub and abandons search
DD MacDonough fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Farragut fails to find sub, continues to search...
DD Dale attacking submerged sub ....
SS I-162 eludes DD Dale by diving deep
SS I-162 eludes ASW attack from DD Dale
DD Farragut fails to find sub and abandons search
DD Dale fails to find sub, continues to search...
Escort abandons search for sub

I wouldn�t say never but there are types that hardly miss. In my PBEM my US fleet subs got a 94% hit rate (mostly pre patch, only one month into the new patch - haven�t noticed a difference though). But I�ve also got miserable hit rates of Dutch, British and S-class subs with only around 60%. IJN sub torps were as homing as my Mk-14 but they have missed a lot of DDs from my ASW TFs lately so their hit rate has gone down too.

In the example you post you�ve also have been hit by a wrong database entry as this sub gets a 8 torp shot and this is wrong, it should have only 6 fwd torp tubes. So perhaps it wouldn�t have hit with "only" 6 torps. But on the other hand, Saratoga was hit by two torps (out of six) in my PBEM just off the West Coast being escorted by more than halve a dozen DDs.

< Message edited by castor troy -- 3/15/2010 8:10:18 AM >

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 8:13:10 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7

Well, he does have a point about the number of torpedoes fired...

It�s a known (wrong) database entry that has been in early on, seems like it was changed with one of the patches but this game was started before and the db isn�t updated with the patches.

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 2:21:31 PM

hellfirejet

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From: Scotland
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Well I solved the problem of multiple torpedo launched, by simply reducing the number of turrets to 1 in all cases,stops subs firing all there torpedos within 2 or 3 attacks and then having to return to port to re-arm,might not be historical but it works for me!
So if a sub has 4 front torpedo tubes,I reduce that to 1 only,so that only 1 torpedo is fired per attack,and the torpedos that should be already loaded in the tubes are added to the ammo load out.

< Message edited by hellfirejet -- 3/15/2010 2:24:37 PM >

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 2:28:28 PM

topeverest

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Pratzen,

Put more good ASW dd's in your major task forces...8 to 10. That will minimize your losses. That said, you will lose some major ships and have a material number tagged during the game. It is a historical fact, and the simulation does reflect this (depending on your point of view!)

My challenge is exacly the opposite. I find that no matter what I do, it is very very tough to sink a sub. Damage - sure. Sink, very hard to do.

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:08:18 PM

castor troy

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Sinking a sub? Lure them into a minefield...

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Post #: 22

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:25:34 PM

Misconduct

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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Pratzen,

Put more good ASW dd's in your major task forces...8 to 10. That will minimize your losses. That said, you will lose some major ships and have a material number tagged during the game. It is a historical fact, and the simulation does reflect this (depending on your point of view!)

My challenge is exacly the opposite. I find that no matter what I do, it is very very tough to sink a sub. Damage - sure. Sink, very hard to do.

I decided when I moved my 4 carriers across the pacific, I combined 2 groups into 1 and that gave me roughly 14-16 destroyers each. I figure this gives me some level of sub protection at least till australia, well I managed to only lose 2 destroyers (both were pre patch)

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Post #: 23

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 3:37:55 PM

castor troy

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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

quote:

ORIGINAL: topeverest

Pratzen,

Put more good ASW dd's in your major task forces...8 to 10. That will minimize your losses. That said, you will lose some major ships and have a material number tagged during the game. It is a historical fact, and the simulation does reflect this (depending on your point of view!)

My challenge is exacly the opposite. I find that no matter what I do, it is very very tough to sink a sub. Damage - sure. Sink, very hard to do.

I decided when I moved my 4 carriers across the pacific, I combined 2 groups into 1 and that gave me roughly 14-16 destroyers each. I figure this gives me some level of sub protection at least till australia, well I managed to only lose 2 destroyers (both were pre patch)

I had Yorktown torpedoed off the Aussie coast when the carriers stumbled over an IJN sub and the CV TF had 10 DDs as escorts with another 2x4 DDs in dedicated ASW TFs following the CV TF. 18 DDs, the sub succesfully attacked and got away unharmed. Not saying it�s impossible but you should never feel save, not even if you have three dozen DDs escorting one carrier. What I do know is that both sides can operate everywhere they want with subs (except in mined ports) and can safely do so. At times I had 6x4 DDs operating off Sydney to hunt down three or four subs and hundreds of DCs usually achieve... nothing... same goes for my Allied subs, I don�t care about IJN ASW TFs at all and operate my subs wherever I want. ASW? More or less useless for both sides. I think my opponent can confirm this.

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 5:10:11 PM

crsutton

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From: Maryland
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I find that the Japanese subs are deadly, at least in the early war. (my Pbem is at 8/42) My subs are doing a decent job-mostly failing to explode but attacking with will. I have not had any ship larger than a CL hit by a Japanese subs but have not really been using my major ships too aggressivly as of yet.

The high point of the game for me is that Truant hit the Kaga in the first month of the war and got one of those nice fuel explosions, and one of my S boats hit a CVL around Dutch Harbor.

So far I am OK with the results. The sub game is one of my favorites and is sort of a mini game inside AE.

Very fun. I can't wait for 1943 to come around.

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RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 6:14:40 PM

Buck Beach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: crsutton

I find that the Japanese subs are deadly, at least in the early war. (my Pbem is at 8/42) My subs are doing a decent job-mostly failing to explode but attacking with will. I have not had any ship larger than a CL hit by a Japanese subs but have not really been using my major ships too aggressivly as of yet.

The high point of the game for me is that Truant hit the Kaga in the first month of the war and got one of those nice fuel explosions, and one of my S boats hit a CVL around Dutch Harbor.

So far I am OK with the results. The sub game is one of my favorites and is sort of a mini game inside AE.

Very fun. I can't wait for 1943 to come around.

I too am OK with my results whether it mirrors RL or not.

I am playing Da Babes lite. It is 1/11/1942 and the sub war has been very active. Without reference to anye Dutch sub results, I have lost 15 ships (including 1 DD, 1 PC and 2 AMs) to the Japanese AI and in return have sunk 7 Japanese subs. Four were off the U.S. West Coast, 2 off of Hawaii and 1 close to Newcastle, Australia, and other hits that I can't put my finger on. I have had many Japanese AI attacks that were misses, in fact on one turn alone there were 7 or 8 attacks and only 3 resulted in hits (not all three were kills).

As a side note, I have been pleasantly surprise that I have sank 3 Japanese ships (including one CL) with my US subs with 21in/MK14 torpedoes. Have also made many attacks with the 21in/Mk10 with no hits, although I did sink one merchant with deck guns.

I's been a fun game.

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Post #: 26

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 6:36:07 PM

vinnie71

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Subs seem very hard to sink, especially early in the war. So when DD and DEs start getting higher ASW ratings (6 or 8) does this change the picture a bit?

I mean sometimes its really weird. A Jap sub attacked a convoy and suffered one hit from repeated attacks. Yet in another instance I sent out an ASW task force made up of 4 Aussie minesweepers and one of them (Wooly something) detected a sub off Melbourne and simply destroyed it (around 15 hits!). This is even though these minesweepers had a ASW rating of 1 and low experience....

Also I would like to point out one other thing. A lot of smallish ships (MGBs, MLs , HDMLs etc) can't be put in ASW taskforces to protect harbours or conduct short range patrols. They have decent ASW capabilities and yet they could not be used for harbour defence (except as surface TFs). I think there should be a slight rethinking of their roles...

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Post #: 27

RE: subs still never miss - 3/15/2010 6:49:30 PM

John Lansford

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My subs have been much more effective then the AI's, especially now that it's early 43 and I'm using the latest patch. The patrol option gives them a larger chance to detect/intercept a target, and I'm getting 2-5 attacks with about 80% hits each phase. The area south of Davao is a great place to find tankers, and contrary to what others are noticing, my subs aren't being sunk any more often then they were before. I've seen more get damaged though, but just figured that was because more experienced ASW captains were on the escorts.

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Post #: 28

RE: subs still never miss - 3/16/2010 8:15:28 AM

castor troy

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Offworlder

Subs seem very hard to sink, especially early in the war. So when DD and DEs start getting higher ASW ratings (6 or 8) does this change the picture a bit?

I mean sometimes its really weird. A Jap sub attacked a convoy and suffered one hit from repeated attacks. Yet in another instance I sent out an ASW task force made up of 4 Aussie minesweepers and one of them (Wooly something) detected a sub off Melbourne and simply destroyed it (around 15 hits!). This is even though these minesweepers had a ASW rating of 1 and low experience....

Also I would like to point out one other thing. A lot of smallish ships (MGBs, MLs�, HDMLs etc) can't be put in ASW taskforces to protect harbours or conduct short range patrols. They have decent ASW capabilities and yet they could not be used for harbour defence (except as surface TFs). I think there should be a slight rethinking of their roles...

no, they usually drop more DCs of course but in the end they run out of ammo after having achieved 2 near misses. Every now and then, perhaps every 20th engagement of an ASW TF with 4 DDs vs an IJN sub you heavily damage or sink one.

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Post #: 29