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Expanding Base Forces - 7/7/2002 10:27:53 PM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		Why do my base forces not expand, the ai base forces expanding in every game like the manuel tells.
Is this a bug, or do i anything wrong?
My base forces will not become any replacements. The ai bf´s get the replacement (jap ai: 15th base force in lae original seize 40, truk: 1/15th base force seize 140 replacement).

sorry, if anybody would treat this early.

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Post #: 1
- 7/8/2002 12:43:18 AM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		Plaese, matrix-staff people is this a bug or not.
:) :confused:

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Post #: 2
- 7/8/2002 5:00:27 AM   
Supervisor

 

Posts: 5166
Joined: 3/2/2004
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulchen
[B]Plaese, matrix-staff people is this a bug or not.
:) :confused: [/B][/QUOTE]
Give them at least a day. :) (On weekends give them a couple). They don't ignore these things. ;)

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Post #: 3
Base Force expansion problem - 7/9/2002 10:08:44 PM   
EricLarsen

 

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
Status: offline 		I have gotten to 10/24/42 as the IJN against the AI USN player. So far not one of my base forces have added any additional aviation support as indicated in the rules. I started and played the whole way through so far in version 1.11. I look at the AI's side and it has been getting more aviation support, but I am not. It seems that there is a bug that is allowing the AI to get more aviation support while human players do not. I have expanded many bases with plenty of supply and support and yet not one extra aviation support has been forthcoming even though I do get replacements for units that lost troopers. Please fix ASAP!
Thanks.

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Post #: 4
- 7/11/2002 3:03:38 AM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		It seems to me, that other players have the same problem.

I think it´s a bug, and it´s need to fix.

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Post #: 5
- 7/11/2002 4:01:47 AM   
Beckles

 

Posts: 128
Joined: 4/9/2002
From: Kansas City, MO, USA
Status: offline 		Base Forces do not expand ... they tend to shrink a little even due to losses. You do get additional base force units as reinforcements that can be used (and as the Allied player I usually end up using one or two of my Australian base forces units elsewhere).

I think you're confusing the rules on expanding bases with base forces. Bases themselves do expand, but not base forces.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 6
Base forces... - 7/11/2002 5:28:06 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Base forces do expand over time, but slowly. We'll try to make time to check and see if this is happening as designed or if something's holding things up. I've seen them expand in my own campaign games. However, rotating damaged base forces out to non-malaria zones is also a very good idea to maintain forward base efficiency.

Regards,

- Erik

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Post #: 7
- 7/11/2002 7:14:43 AM   
Learmont

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Fayetteville, Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		I have yet to see a baseforce expand in either Brisbane, Noumea, Basa-Poya, Goro or thr other base on New Calodonia or anywhere in Australia such as Charter Towers. I moved a 60 av baseforce there in June and by January it had completely failed to expand. These are all (all) non-malaria areas. It needs to be addressed as a bug but a single save file will not even begin to address the problem.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 8
- 7/11/2002 9:51:18 AM   
FirstPappy


Posts: 744
Joined: 9/12/2000
From: NY, USA
Status: offline 		I posted an earlier thread about supplies not filtering down:

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22428

This had acute effect on my IJN baseforces. I wonder if it's all related?

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Post #: 9
- 7/12/2002 4:02:02 AM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		In my actually campaign (#19, jap 08/15/42), no base force replacement have arrived. It doesn´t matter to have a bf in truk or elsewhere, no replacement.
In an older campaign (#16, us 02/10/43), the jap-ai have become many bf-replacments and it doesn´t matter where the bf stationed.
I have it controlled many times (switching side after game save).

The problem with no expanding is, that the jap have not enough air-support for his airforce, because all new bf have only 40 support.
The new us-bf start with 60 for SWPAC and 100 for SOPAC. This is enough to defeat the jap-ai, but the 40 is not enough for the us-ai.:(

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Post #: 10
- 7/12/2002 4:06:02 AM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		I don´t know, if the problem is in a two human game.
Does anybody knows?

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Post #: 11
- 7/12/2002 4:07:14 AM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		duple klick, sorry

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Post #: 12
- 7/12/2002 12:14:41 PM   
MatrixFan

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/10/2002
From: Frankfurt, Deutschland
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by Paulchen
[B]In my actually campaign (#19, jap 08/15/42), no base force replacement have arrived. It doesn´t matter to have a bf in truk or elsewhere, no replacement.
In an older campaign (#16, us 02/10/43), the jap-ai have become many bf-replacments and it doesn´t matter where the bf stationed.
I have it controlled many times (switching side after game save).

The problem with no expanding is, that the jap have not enough air-support for his airforce, because all new bf have only 40 support.
The new us-bf start with 60 for SWPAC and 100 for SOPAC. This is enough to defeat the jap-ai, but the 40 is not enough for the us-ai.:( [/B][/QUOTE]


Yeah i noticed this as well a major lack of air support as the IJN. Doesnt matter to much against the AI but in PBEM its a pain.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 13
- 7/12/2002 1:05:12 PM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		Are you adding Engineer units and Base units to your bases to help them build up??

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Email: rossm@csogroup.org

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Post #: 14
- 7/12/2002 5:48:05 PM   
Learmont

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 10/27/2000
From: Fayetteville, Georgia, USA
Status: offline 		Ross, we are talking about the amount of avaiation support in a baseforce stationed at lvl 9 bases. They are supposed to build to 250 av support but are not building up at all. I mean at Brisbane, outside of malaria area. They will not build to the 30/airfield level anywhere in Australia including Charter Towers, Cairns, Townsville or Cooktown (after engs increase arifield). This is in direct violation of the information in the manual, and is therefore surely a bug.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 15
Eric Larsen - 7/12/2002 9:51:57 PM   
EricLarsen

 

Posts: 458
Joined: 7/9/2002
From: Salinas, CA Raider Nation
Status: offline 		Ross,
Your comment regarding putting engineers in bases to help them expand is really stupid. You must think we're idiots or something, and now that many players are complaining about the same **** thing why don't you stop playing these idiotic "let's blame it on operator error" rather than blaming it on poor programming as is the case. Besides, base forces include engineers which do expand bases so your comment makes me wonder if you have ever played the game. I read the rules and made sure to have plenty of supplies and support at the bases, and even with engineer units to expedite the expansion process there have been no new additions of aviation support for my human sides. I have gotten to 11/1/42 and have not gotten any new avaition support for any base force, including the one at Truk where it would incorporate automatically. The AI side always gets more aviation support so there is something wrong on the human side of the program equation. I was wondering if maybe it has something to do with the turn scale. I have been playing daily turns and not multi-day turns. I know that Erik Rutins said he played a campaign game and got more aviation support, but was he playing multi-day turns or was it something he saw working in a prior version that may have gotten broken in a newer update. Please stop wasting time trying to deny these valid player complaints and just say thanks for the tip and we'll get to fixing the problem ASAP. That's what we want to hear!
Thanks,

Eric Larsen

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 16
- 7/12/2002 11:59:47 PM   
UndercoverNotChickenSalad


Posts: 3990
Joined: 2/19/2002
From: Denial Aisle
Status: offline 		rook

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Post #: 17
- 7/13/2002 2:58:24 AM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		The words from EricLarsen are very hard, but he is right.

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Post #: 18
Re: Eric Larsen - 7/13/2002 8:22:34 AM   
Ross Moorhouse


Posts: 2354
Joined: 1/5/2001
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by EricLarsen
[B]Ross,
Your comment regarding putting engineers in bases to help them expand is really stupid. You must think we're idiots or something, and now that many players are complaining about the same **** thing why don't you stop playing these idiotic "let's blame it on operator error" rather than blaming it on poor programming as is the case. Besides, base forces include engineers which do expand bases so your comment makes me wonder if you have ever played the game. I read the rules and made sure to have plenty of supplies and support at the bases, and even with engineer units to expedite the expansion process there have been no new additions of aviation support for my human sides. I have gotten to 11/1/42 and have not gotten any new avaition support for any base force, including the one at Truk where it would incorporate automatically. The AI side always gets more aviation support so there is something wrong on the human side of the program equation. I was wondering if maybe it has something to do with the turn scale. I have been playing daily turns and not multi-day turns. I know that Erik Rutins said he played a campaign game and got more aviation support, but was he playing multi-day turns or was it something he saw working in a prior version that may have gotten broken in a newer update. Please stop wasting time trying to deny these valid player complaints and just say thanks for the tip and we'll get to fixing the problem ASAP. That's what we want to hear!
Thanks,

Eric Larsen [/B][/QUOTE]

I didnt say a single person here was an idiot. I asked a simiply question. ROFLMAO.. I am wasting time by denying valid players complaints am I. Please in no way I have done this. We look at the probs you guys post. We then have to weigh up what can be fixed real quick and what wont get done till War in the Pacific. After all we are a business so we have to watch the development money too.

You know could of of answered me with a simply "Sorry thats not what we are talking about." But I think you have some deeper issues here with the game. Look at your comment about operator error v's progarmmer. When have you seen a Matrix person say this sort of thing EricLarsen? Have I ever played the game? What a stupid question. Have you read the credits for the game? I am the Playtest Manger for Matrix and have played the game from the first Alpha build all the way through to the patch we are testing now. Sorry if I missed something out of all the 1000s things that happen within this game. Sorry that I am not a programer so I can go over every piece of the massive amount of coding that went into this game. Man I am sorry I am no the perfect human being.

You know you will never find the 100% perfect game, because after all its just a game and is constrained by this fact.

Eric how long have you been playing the game? Bet you will miss somethings that other pick up and report.

_____________________________

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Project Manager
www.csosimtek.com
Email: rossm@csogroup.org

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Post #: 19
- 7/13/2002 8:52:41 AM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Ding Ding. Back to your corners, please. My understanding was that base forces were supposed to build up (and I know at one time they were generating replacement units, but that was a long time ago during the test cycle). The build up happened based on the computer picking out one Base Force as the primary unit in a base, and I think if a base was under supported, it would create the replacements for the primary base force. It is worth getting this on our bug list so we can have a Gary or Mike look at exactly what is supposed to happen and whether there is a bug. To be honest, in my late beta testing of the game I got used to getting support where I needed it and assumed that I wouldn't get replacements if I already had enough support at a base. It's very possible there is a bug here for the human player as several AI items were turned off for the human player (this could have caused this bug), so although this is a lower priority bug it's worth a look.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 20
- 7/13/2002 3:24:16 PM   
Paulchen

 

Posts: 46
Joined: 4/13/2001
From: Schneverdingen,germany
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]The build up happened based on the computer picking out one Base Force as the primary unit in a base, and I think if a base was under supported, it would create the replacements for the primary base force.[/QUOTE]

Yes, this is the problem, i believe.
At ai bases units will attached to a base and get replacements,
at human bases no unit will automaticly or can from the player attached to the base.;)

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Post #: 21
- 7/13/2002 9:00:03 PM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline 		I think Joel might have said the word! 'under supported'.
I don't know about you others but I tend to avoid having more aircraft (except for maybe 10-15 extra) than I can support to avoid having too many of them damaged.
Those bases are probably not considered 'under supported' by the computer so I don't get any reinforcements/replacements for the units.

It might be worth trying to move in extra aircraft to some backwater base to see what happens.

/BPRE

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Post #: 22
Base Force Reinforcement - 7/15/2002 3:11:27 AM   
Sven Nyqvist

 

Posts: 17
Joined: 9/10/2000
From: Oberusel, Germany
Status: offline 		I have never seen any replacement for Base Forces. I assume that a Base Force, which should grow (according to the manual) receive this growth just like any other replacement in Truk/Noumea/ Brisbane. I played the allies till Nov 42 in Campaign 17 whithout it happening once.

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Post #: 23
Re: Eric Larsen - 7/15/2002 3:24:32 PM   
Reiryc

 

Posts: 4991
Joined: 1/5/2001
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by EricLarsen
[B]Ross,
Your comment regarding putting engineers in bases to help them expand is really stupid. You must think we're idiots or something, and now that many players are complaining about the same **** thing why don't you stop playing these idiotic "let's blame it on operator error" rather than blaming it on poor programming as is the case. Besides, base forces include engineers which do expand bases so your comment makes me wonder if you have ever played the game. I read the rules and made sure to have plenty of supplies and support at the bases, and even with engineer units to expedite the expansion process there have been no new additions of aviation support for my human sides. I have gotten to 11/1/42 and have not gotten any new avaition support for any base force, including the one at Truk where it would incorporate automatically. The AI side always gets more aviation support so there is something wrong on the human side of the program equation. I was wondering if maybe it has something to do with the turn scale. I have been playing daily turns and not multi-day turns. I know that Erik Rutins said he played a campaign game and got more aviation support, but was he playing multi-day turns or was it something he saw working in a prior version that may have gotten broken in a newer update. Please stop wasting time trying to deny these valid player complaints and just say thanks for the tip and we'll get to fixing the problem ASAP. That's what we want to hear!
Thanks,

Eric Larsen [/B][/QUOTE]

So, who pis'sed in your cheerios this morning?

Lighten up francis, it's really not that serious.

Reiryc

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Post #: 24
- 7/15/2002 11:46:49 PM   
Joel Billings


Posts: 32265
Joined: 9/20/2000
From: Santa Rosa, CA
Status: offline 		Ok, we need help here. Gary looked at the code and says it looks like it should work. It's supposed to pick one base force as the primary base force for each base (the player won't know which). Then, whenever the airfield goes up in size, the computer should check to make sure that the primary unit (by itself) has enough aviation support to handle the number of aircraft at the base (or 30 times the current airfield size, whichever is larger). If not, then a replacement/reinforcement unit should be created within a week or so and should go on the reinforcement track.

With that said, it is possible that we disabled this for the human player (Gary and I can't remember if we did this intentionally or not, but in any event he can't find this in the code). Can someone send us a save just before a base increases in size in such a way that should guarantee a replacement base force being generated for a human player. If we get the save, Gary will look at this issue. Please send this save to [email]2by3@2by3games.com[/email]. Thanks.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 25
- 7/16/2002 1:02:40 AM   
juliet7bravo

 

Posts: 894
Joined: 5/30/2001
Status: offline 		"If not, then a replacement/reinforcement unit should be created within a week or so and should go on the reinforcement track."

Stop the presses! I've seen "partial" base force sub-units show up at Brisbane/Noumea as reinforcements, like 1/105th. I've seen them and went "WTF, where'd that come from?" and wrote it off as having lost a sub-unit of the 105th on a sunk AP or something and just not remembering it. Now that IS happening unless I was right and really did lose the sub-units during transit.

I was under the impression that the base force would "grow" in size at the base where it was located. ie. jump from size 60 to size 120 as example during the reinforcement phase.

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 26
- 7/16/2002 2:01:16 AM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline 		I've mailed a file from the day before Russel Is. increases from 3 to 4 in scenario 6. 109th Base Force is at 60 Av. Support and 4 weeks later I have yet to see any replacement/reinforcement.
The only explanation I have in case it does happen is that I'm right then adding the 107th Base Force with an extra 60 Av. Support so in total there's enough to fulfill the requirement.

/BPRE

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 27
- 7/16/2002 11:13:55 PM   
MatrixFan

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 6/10/2002
From: Frankfurt, Deutschland
Status: offline 		Okay it seems the base force replacements come but they only arrive in truk atleast for the japs. Say i got 18th base force in lunga replacment will say 1/ 18th base force but arrives in truk.

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Post #: 28
Final verdict - 7/17/2002 3:36:20 AM   
BPRE

 

Posts: 624
Joined: 10/16/2000
From: Stockholm,Sweden
Status: offline 		OK,

I received the following answer from Joel Billings in reply to my saved file:

As for the base force replacements, Gary found that sure enough it was disabled for human players. We honestly don't remember, but we assume we did this intentionally and forgot to take it out of the manual. It is very possible that we decided that since the player doesn't know who the primary base force is, and since the human player already has enough assets to work with, we'd get rid of it (but leave it for the AI since they need the help).
We haven't decided what to do about this yet. The options are explain that it only works for the AI and leave alone, or put it back in for the humans
and let them get the windfall of the extra units (without their really knowing how it's happening). I'm tempted to leave it alone as I believe the
Allies have enough support and the Japanese don't deserve to get any more.

My personal opinion about this is that it's OK. I think that as a Human vs the AI I don't need this extra help once I get to know the game a bit but the AI might. We should also be a bit careful with requests to change things that aren't faulty since the chances if them causing new faults are a possibility.
Since I don't have any experience of Human vs Human play I can only guess that it would affect both sides equally.

Any other comments/opinions about this??

As for the experience that some people had with replacements coming in could that be due to losses? It's happened to me. I lost part of a base force (possibly due to a bug but that's another story) and 4 days later I received notification in
the Ground Replacement schedule that I would receive a replacement unit within 7 days.

/BPRE

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 29
Re: Base Replacement Not Per Manual - 7/17/2002 4:34:22 AM   
mjk428

 

Posts: 1944
Joined: 6/15/2002
From: Western USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]My personal opinion about this is that it's OK. I think that as a Human vs the AI I don't need this extra help once I get to know the game a bit but the AI might. We should also be a bit careful with requests to change things that aren't faulty since the chances if them causing new faults are a possibility.
Since I don't have any experience of Human vs Human play I can only guess that it would affect both sides equally.
[/QUOTE]

As far as having base forces expand is concerned, I would consider this a minor issue not worth implimenting. It would be nice if Matrix could put a manual correction in their next patch readme so people aren't left wondering why it's not happening as described.

Thanks to Joel (& BPRE) for getting this info to us.

MartyK

(in reply to Paulchen)
Post #: 30
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