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Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac?

 
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Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/15/2010 6:24:36 PM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		I like playing Advanced Tactics - I think it is a great hex game. While "cruising" through YouTube I came across the famous PC versus Mac debate. I don't know enough about computers but there is always someone who will say how much they prefer the Mac. I am curious by their enthusiasm. I wrote in the YouTube debate that I would like to try out a Mac but the only thing stopping me is that Mac does not support many games.

However, one person responded by saying that in April "Steam" will be available for Mac. Therefore, any game that is available for "Steam" one can play on a Mac. That is good news because it is well known that Macs are not good for gaming. Most games are made for Windows Vista, XP and 7, but not for Mac. I went to the "Steam" website and, not surprisingly, Advanced Tactics was not on the list of games played on "Steam". Hex based games are not games that most people like to play on PCs, and I can understand that.

So fearing that I already know the answer to my question, is it still possible to play "Advanced Tactics" on a Mac? Is there perhaps some technological way that "Advanced Tactics" can be played on a Mac that I am not aware of? Just as I was not aware that in April "Steam" was coming out for Mac.

By the way, I hope this does not turn into a PC versus Mac debate! LOL.
Post #: 1
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/15/2010 8:08:50 PM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		The only way I can think of that AT could be played on a Mac is to create an XP dual boot option. As Macs now use Intel chips Xp runs on it fine... apparently... I hate Macs so can't confirm this....

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 2
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/15/2010 11:36:27 PM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		Barthheart, thanks for replying and for the information. I will check it out.

Apparently I got some information from a Mac user saying Windows can be installed on Mac which means games can be played on it. It follows therefore that "Advanced Tactics" should be able to be played if one is able to install Windows. So that is that, I guess.

It would be interesting to know what it is that makes you hate Macs. Don't worry, it's so that I can get an idea on whether I would ever like to take the Mac route or not.

At the moment I have been based in Italy for over 4 years but will make the move to England around July 2010. I will have to get a new PC. I was curious about this Mac "thing" and wondered what it was that made some PC users go over to the Mac.

I can remember when I first got my PC and the hassles I had with it. Installing games that didn't work, removing programs which made something else not work, something crashing here and something crashing there etc. Having to contact support giving me a list of what to do, trying to figure out where the folders were situated, learning how to type or remove what it was I supposed to remove etc etc. At that time I was new to PCs. I did not have the time to start learning to become a computer engineer. I had other things to do. If the Mac had less of these problematic issues then, running smoothly without having to do anything, then I can understand why I would have loved a Mac...I think.

Anyway thanks for replying. By the way, sorry to drag the Mac versus PC issue in an "Advanced Tactic" forum - it's the last thing we want!


(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 3
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 12:01:56 AM   
Barthheart


Posts: 3194
Joined: 7/20/2004
From: Nepean, Ontario
Status: offline 		Ah... well... hate maybe too strong a word. I've always had and used PC's. I'm a mechanical engineer and all my professional software only runs on PC's. I've built my own PC's from the first one I had back when it was just 086 processors.... man I'm old. It used to be that building your own PC was always cheaper than any Mac... but not so much any more.

Several of my good friends have Macs and love them. One is a graphic designer and for him there is no better platform for his work... and I agree. But I'm not an artsy...

It really depends on what you plan to do most with whatever computer you plan to get.

Good luck.

_____________________________

Life is not a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty & well preserved body,
but rather to skid in broadside, totally worn out & proclaiming "WOW, what a ride!"

(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 4
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 12:45:17 AM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		You'd probably have to dual boot with windows or maybe find some emulater software that would allow you to run an XP virtual machine inside of the MAC OS. Important note, just because STEAM is availble for the MAC doesn't mean that all the games they carry are....you want to be really carefull to check out individual games to see what OS they can run under.

Not a big fan of MAC's here either....they tend to be overpriced for what you get...and software support can be pretty sketchy. Though for certain niches (like graphic design) they tend to be dominant. Again depends on what you want to do with it. I wouldn't buy one for a gaming machine though.

The thing with Apple's historicaly is that for the things they are made to run on them....you generaly used to have less trouble running then with Windows...but if anything did go wrong...there was basicaly no fixing it or figuring it out yourself... you needed to bring them into the shop.

Current MAC's OS is actualy a UNIX kernal under the hood though....that basicaly means more configuration problems...but also greater opportunity to fix stuff yourself....for whatever that's worth.

< Message edited by GrumpyMel -- 3/16/2010 12:52:51 AM >

(in reply to Barthheart)
Post #: 5
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 2:47:32 AM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		Thank you "GrumpyMel" for your post and daring to enter this controversial debate between Macs and Windows.

I also thank "Barthheart" for coming back to me again on this issue.

I only use the computer for writing with "Word", sending and receiving emails for business, surfing on the net, playing some games and that is it. I don't use it at all for graphic designing or film editing which, as we all know, Mac is popular in this niche.

I only thought about Mac when I started noticing the debate around it and was thinking that maybe it is better and then again... maybe not. Sheesh! I would read a post by a Mac user and that would make me say yes for it, then I would read a post for Windows arguing the opposite, and that would leave me saying yes for Windows. "Bloody hell"!

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 6
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 5:58:50 AM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		Well, I hesitate to enter this fray, but I may be the only one you've seen yet that has a lot of experience in both platforms and with both types of users.

This is indeed an endless debate inciting nearly religious fervor on both sides. I could give you details, but I won't. I'll just give you my conclusion. If you're just doing the basics, either platform will look and perform almost identically nowadays (there were significant differences in the basics about 13 years ago and before).

If you're wanting to do some gaming, hands down PC is the best route because there are only a very small handful of games designed for the Mac. Even those that Mac can run in PC mode don't run as well and can cause conflicts, and those games that you can purchase specifically for the Mac OS are always designed for PC, then ported over, causing some real headaches not uncommonly.

The idea that Macs are easier for to use for visual learners and graphics programs, and that Macs were "more reliable" was true until somewhere between 13 and 15 years ago. Not so any more. Even very many high end graphics programs are being written straight for PCs now, then changed for Macs, though there are still some very high end graphics programs designed only for Macs. (My son is in that industry and has witnessed the change.)

At least these are my opinions, but they're based on 20 years of using both.

(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 7
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 7:32:45 AM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		explorer2,

Thanks for taking the risk to enter this debate. I say that not with sarcasm but with friendly humour.

I have been given information from a Mac enthusiast that games can be played on Mac by using "crossover", that let you run games and programmes for Windows to be run on Mac. Is that what you meant yourself when you said: "Even those that Mac can run in PC mode don't run as well and can cause conflicts".

Again, I was told that "Steam" will be introduced in April for Mac so that all games in "Steam" will be playable in Mac.

Anyway, I am trying to get to as close to the facts as I possibly can between Windows and Macs without stirring any heated emotional arguments. I have been doing some reading on the debate and so far I cannot decide. I can see both sides of the arguments. I think what the appeal for Mac would be is just that the whole thing comes in a package that delivers ease of performance or less complications...I think.

I am still undecided but...the following link I just recently discoverd by accident was making me consider the Mac a little more seriously for the first time. I wouldn't mind having your thoughts on it, if you are able to look at it. Here is the link:

http://chris.pirillo.com/50-reasons-to-switch-from-microsoft-windows-to-apples-mac-os-x/

It is written from - if I understood it correctly - someone who himself is unbiased and open to both views of the debate. But then, I read your post and can see that you have had a lot of experience with both operating systems and once again, your view is something to take into consideration.

I am just beginning to wonder now whether Mac is gently leading the way to a situation that is going to appeal more and more to the public for computers that are to be more packaged, polished and complete, put together in such a way your grandmother can now operate it without having to be a computer engineer.

I can certainly remember my early days when I first started the computer; it was hell then because there was always something going wrong and so many little applications, downloads etc to add in order to make something work or not work. At that time, I thought why have they made the computer so difficult to run? You have to be a computer engineer just to make it do something simple. It was not something that your grand mother was going to be able to use.

So I think it is here that Mac is heading towards - a computer system where anyone can sit down, click a few buttons and it all works smoothly. Like driving a car. You don't have to be a car mechanic to drive it. I can understand where some will not like this because it doesn't have that aura of being a "geek" anymore or having the feeling of mastering and solving a problem at NASA control centre.

Anyway, thanks for giving me some information on this, especially from someone who has had many years with both systems. I have a lot to think about.

(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 8
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 1:34:22 PM   
explorer2

 

Posts: 465
Joined: 11/30/2007
Status: offline 		wolf727-
I took a look at Parillo's site. Nice th at he took the time to give good detailed reasons.
I think the issue is for you that what you're reading is missing what I think your point is, which I take as this:
If all I want to do is email, internet surfing, word processing, and gaming, which is best?
Again my response is, if that's ALL you want to do, it's PC, hands down.
I dispute a few of his claims, many of them I fully agree with, but bottom line is that most of what he says is not applicable to how you seem to say you use your computer. Much of what he says is simply not involved in how you say you're going to use your computer.
He should have started with saying what type of user he's talking about. Based on how you say you're using the computer, you simply would not use or notice much/most of what he talks about.

Most importantly, did you notice in the end of his long post the following quote:

"If you’re a gamer, all bets are off – you’re a different kind of user."

Meaning, I think, that everything he just said is irrelevant for you. Notice that not one of his reasons mentioned gaming, and he admits at the end that if you're gaming, Mac's not for you. Can you game on Mac? Of course. Is it as easy as PC? Nowhere near!! And he sheepishly admits it.

People get all bent out of shape about these things and want to say what's "best" That's simply not the question. The better question is what is either what is most cost effective for how I'm going to be using the computer, or what's the easiest to use for how I"m going to be using it, or what is the most stylish/hip one to use, the one that makes me emotionally feel special because I'm different?

(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 9
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 3:55:01 PM   
JonDgar

 

Posts: 1
Joined: 3/16/2010
Status: offline 		Hi all. I surfed onto this debate while looking for information on the announcement that Steam will be released on Mac next month.

I am a Mac user who is also a gamer!!!

Let me clarify. I have recently switched to Mac. Allow me to offer what I have learned from my experience.

I have been a computer gamer since the Commodore64 and have used many different platforms over the years, from very early Macs and Amigas through DOS to every breed of Windows you care to name. I worked many years as a computer technician building, servicing and troubleshooting Windows PCs and loved every minute of it. I began to follow Apple again when they starting using Intel processors and released Bootcamp, the software now on every new Mac that allows you to install Windows.

I started by dabbling. The day Apple release their Leopard OS, I replaced my wife's Windows Vista Media Center Machine with a Mac Mini so I could keep my beloved gaming rig and still try out the Mac and see what the fuss was about.

My finding are this. Macs have a strange effect on people. My wife, who's not particularly computer literate, made the transition to Mac very quickly and easily. The bundled software took care of her existing photos and music elegantly. The computer accepted most printers, scanners, cameras and external storage devices without having to load up any extra driver software. The strange effect? Without prompting, she has developed a passionate hatred for Windows. Don't ask me to explain this effect, I don't understand it.

Personally though, I find a lot more value in the software that comes with on a new Mac compared to what you get with a Windows PC. When the time came to upgrade the OS on my gaming rig, I was looking at $250-$500 for Windows7 here in Australia. I upgraded the Mac to the latest Snow Leopard OS for $40! But monetary cost aside. Compare the bundled software you get in this price. Windows includes MS Paint, Windows Media Player, a few solitaire games, Windows Movie Maker, Sound Recorder, Windows (MSN) Messenger, etc. Anybody who compares these programs with iLife will come to the same conclusion. The Apple software is intuitive, refined, polished and simply a pleasure to use.

That said, it will come as no surprise that my old gaming rig has been retired and an iMac now sits upon my desk and I use it for everything. The last couple of years has seen a few games come out on the Mac and I play games like Civ4 and Black & White 2 natively. For any other games, I simply reboot the computer into Windows using the BootCamp software included. Obviously, I still need a copy of Windows to do this, but it allows me to play any game I desire.

Essentially, Macs and PCs are identical. New Macs use Intel 64bit processors and are equipped with nVidia or ATI graphics chips. They have USB and Firewire ports. The hardware is practically the same stuff. However, when you get an iMac, one question that you get asked but your PC friends is "Where's the box?". With an iMac, the entire computer is built into the screen. With a wireless keyboard and mouse, the only cable is the power cord. With Wi-Fi and bluetooth built in, it certainly changes the landscape of your office or computer room. The spaghetti factory of wires and cables hanging out of my old gaming rig is not something I miss. Then there's the noise. High end gaming PCs make quite a lot of it, with a multitude of fans blowing air across big heat sinks. It still bewilders me how Apple make such a powerful machine run so quietly. There is a lot to be said for the build quality of Apple's line of computers.

But they are still computers. Anyone who tells you Macs don't have cryptic error messages, is lying. They do. I've had a few. I've also had software crashes and even had the OS itself crash or reboot. Not often, but it does happen. Just like Windows. I have a firewall activated and anti-virus software installed on my Mac too. Whatever OS you run, it's foolhardy not to protect yourself against online threats.

On the subject of Steam: As I understand it, Valve is planning to release their back catalogue of games to the Mac. Just Valve games, not everything in Steam's collection. That means Half-Life, Counterstrike, etc. Hopefully, we'll see Mac versions of new games that are released in the future, but don't hold your breath for old titles like Oblivion to be ported.

For the time being, I will be using BootCamp and my trusty copy of WindowsXP to run my favourite old games, like Advanced Tactics (nice on-topic save). I call it, booting into my XBox. For everything else, I use the Mac.

(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 10
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 6:20:49 PM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		explorer2-
Thank you for having looked at Parillo's site - it was kind of you to have bothered. And I am actually sorry for dragging you into this debate but I am really trying to get to the actual truth, the nuts and bolts of the matter without getting into an emotional heated exchange.

I agree with your comments about determining what it is that you want to use your computer for and you are right in saying Parillo should have made it clear on what type of user he is referring to.

I can remember, however, the issue with Windows that really annoyed me a few years ago was when installing and uninstalling games and programmes there were times when I had problems getting a game to work etc because another earlier version of the game had still some files hidden away in the registry and the new game couldn't work etc.

I had to contact support and they gave me a complicated list of steps of what I had to do to try to locate all these hidden files in the registry. I am just a simple "home" user, not a whizz kid geek or a computer engineer AND I really don't have time to spend long nights trying to get a programme to work.

In the end I did manage to do it all by myself and of course I felt proud and elated that I was able to do work it out myself, but despite my pride, it is not something I have the time nor inclination to repeat just to make myself feel like a “geek” or a NASA computer scientist. I don’t have time for it.

I can understand where the Windows guys are coming from, it’s kind of “cool” and “hip” to boast that they can upgrade or build a computer all by themsleves. It’s a bit like being a Radio enthusiast. And I can see how they would turn their nose up at spoilt little rich kids who have money to spend on a package they know nothing about. But there are those like me, a Window user, but really I’m a “home” user and I simply want my computer to perform all business applications, Word, emails and some gaming just by “clicking” on some applications. I don’t have time to “fiddle” underneath the “bonnet” of the computer and pride myself that I have “geek” knowledge.

I agree there are people with Macs who do what you quoted: “what is the most stylish/hip one to use, the one that makes me emotionally feel special because I'm different?” I am aware of the Mac superiority snob debate, users who pay a lot of money with a system they do not know how to take apart and be a computer “geek” and computer engineer.

But it can also be said there is reverse snobism, guys who have Windows because they think it is “cool” to be considered intelligent enough to spend hours getting Window programmes to operate and building a NASA computer centre, boasting how they fixed it and what stuff they have under the “bonnet” of their computer.

But to me the real ISSUE that Windows is missing and where Mac is accomplishing is this: computers have been on the market for decades and still they are not user friendly.

They are far too complicated for your grandmother or your parents to use. In order to make something work you have to go to a site to download stuff, and when you go to that site you are looking around trying to determine on what part you are meant to click on to download. Oops just clicked on the wrong file type etc etc! Programmes and applications are always at conflict with each other or that I have to go and download something to make that something work etc.

Michael DeAgonia makes this case well: http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9075000/OS_Smackdown_Linux_vs._Mac_OS_X_vs._Windows_Vista_vs._Windows_XP?pageNumber=3

Yes, I did notice the quote he made: "If you’re a gamer, all bets are off – you’re a different kind of user." I was aware of that. It was that that made me initially stay away from investigating Mac. But, I notice that Mac is slowly introducing "Steam" and "crossover" to make it more compatible to play games. I take your point and accept that Windows are still ahead of the game, but, it seems that Mac is pushing the boundaries where they will be able to play games.

If Mac can do emails, Word, business applications, spread sheets, surf the net, and do games (with the assistance of Boot Camp and Steam) then I may very well consider going over to Mac. Because the main issue that I have with all Windows is this: I don’t want to have to keep on fixing a programme or application which they all seem to be fighting amongst themselves. It may be “cool” and “geeky”, making one look intelligent and the real man, but sorry I don’t have time for that.
A person wrote: “Plug in a mouse on a PC, and a little dialog box pops up exclaiming that it just sensed you plugged in a mouse, and after installing the driver, it's ready to go! This isn't a shuttle launch; I just plugged in a mouse.” I got this from this site and really I agree with the comment:
http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9075000/OS_Smackdown_Linux_vs._Mac_OS_X_vs._Windows_Vista_vs._Windows_XP?pageNumber=3

Sorry, I think I am beginning to sound like a Mac enthusiast without realizing it! But really it is all about the thing doing what it is meant to be doing. If I buy a new car, I just want to switch it on knowing that there is not going to be any problem. I want a sure and smooth ride. I don’t want to feel that just because I fit in a new radio in the car that it is going to have compatibility issues and make some other function in the car not working. I really don’t want to do all that Registry stuff that I really do not know about that I had to do with my Windows.

Sorry, this is way too long. I just noticed that “JonDgar” has joined the debate. I will try to reply to him as soon as I can. But on reading what he has written, he is actually pointing out what it is that makes people turn to Mac and make me consider it: “My wife, who's not particularly computer literate, made the transition to Mac very quickly and easily.”

Isn’t this what Windows should be doing, attracting people who are not computer literate, including myself?


< Message edited by wolf727 -- 3/16/2010 6:38:10 PM >

(in reply to explorer2)
Post #: 11
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 6:31:36 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		I took a look at Parillo's site as well...some of what he mentioned is accurate....other points are just plain wrong (at least as far as Windows capabilities goes).

The bottom line is that for your basic end users tasks (surfing the web, word processing, e-mail, etc) either MAC or PC work perfectly fine....it all comes down to what flavor you like... Coke or 7-UP....take your pick? That's all about what interface you feel most comfortable working in. I personaly can't stand the MAC OS X interface...so would never touch it with a 10ft pole...but that's really just personal preference.

There are different types of uses that the OS's are better suited for then one another...but for grandma surfing the web and sending e-mails that doesn't apply.

One thing is definate though....for playing most games.... you'll need to boot into Windows, run it in a virtual machine or find some sort of emulater that will trick the game into thinking it's being run in Windows.

If you don't like the Windows interface for your daily computing tasks....then it may be worth it to look at MAC or maybe Linux. If you are perfectly comfortable working with Windows...then I'd wonder why you are purchasing 2 OS's when you could simply use one for everything?


(in reply to JonDgar)
Post #: 12
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 6:53:52 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		Wolf727, the thing about "you just plug it in or install it and it just works on a MAC" is a fallacy. No matter what OS you are running... you ARE going to run into hardware and software issues...application compatability issues etc. That's because most of the time it's NOT the OS which is at fault (although OS's have thier bugs too)... it's the Application/Hardware that is at issue. So if ACME company writes a buggy printer driver for Windows, the odds aren't any better that it will write a less buggy driver for OS X or Linux. Same with applications.

The only advantage that Apple used to have in that regard was that there was a much smaller variety in hardware and software vendors (i.e. vendor lock in) that you could purchase from...so fewer chances with compatability issues or with picking a bad quality vendor. That's not so much the case any more as the variety of vendors producing for Apples has expanded considerably.

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 13
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 7:25:47 PM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		Hi "GrumpMel"
Welcome back to the debate. I have just finished posting when I saw your post. I don't really have time but I will just quickly answer you.

I am a Window user. I cannot make any real arguments because I have never used a Mac and I can only guess or imagine what it is they are saying.

I really don't care what interface I am using - it is not so much about how pretty and attractive it is but more about how effortlessly and efficiently a computer will do what I want it to do in as professional a manner it can do it.

The very first time I ever had a computer - many years ago - I didn't know what it was all about. At the time I thought it was enough just to put the disc in and it will play the game, like PS3. I expected most programmes were like that.

I haven't got enought technical knowledge to argue the differences between Mac and Windows. I am not, as I said above many times, a computer "geek". I am a humble "home" user. I don't have time to become a computer "geek". I don't have time to become a car engineer just because I want to drive a car.

But you have to wonder what it is that enables a simple house wife to use a Mac as "JonDgar" explained above: "My finding are this. Macs have a strange effect on people. My wife, who's not particularly computer literate, made the transition to Mac very quickly and easily. The bundled software took care of her existing photos and music elegantly. The computer accepted most printers, scanners, cameras and external storage devices without having to load up any extra driver software. The strange effect? Without prompting, she has developed a passionate hatred for Windows. Don't ask me to explain this effect, I don't understand it."

This to me has to be the bottom line and it is summed up well at this site:

http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9075000/OS_Smackdown_Linux_vs._Mac_OS_X_vs._Windows_Vista_vs._Windows_XP?pageNumber=3

You wrote: "If you are perfectly comfortable working with Windows...then I'd wonder why you are purchasing 2 OS's when you could simply use one for everything?"

I am only comfortable working with Windows as long as I don't need to go into the Registry to fix things or that I have to keep getting programmes to work with each other etc etc.

I imagine they are using two OS only because that is the only way they can play the games that Mac has not been able to do...yet. Otherwise they would just use the one system.

It is the sense that I am getting from Mac enthusiasts who are saying how Mac is easier to use, efficient, intuitive and compatible that made me remember how I wanted my first computer experience to be. I don't want to find myself trying to fix something in a computer that's going to take many nights to do when all I want it to do is work!

To me it is all about the simple "home" user being able to do what they need to do on a computer without feeling they need to be a computer scientist. That to me is the bottom line and I think THAT is what most housewives or simple "home" users want.


(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 14
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/16/2010 10:28:13 PM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		Wolf727,

Not trying to get into a major debate here. The only thing I want to bring up is that the article you linked to is FACTUALY wrong on so many points it's not even funny.

I AM an IT pro (Network Engineer) for a living....have been for the past 20 years. Part of my job even involves making purchasing decisions about workstation hardware/software.

I'm not trying to rag on Apple here... they make perfectly fine systems for many home users and even some corporate environments....but there IS a reason why Windows rules the corporate desktop world and it's not because companies like giving money to Bill Gates more then they do to Steve Jobs.

But this whole "It just works" thing is just way off-base...I might even say false advertising...and if your expecting never to run into any troubles with a MAC you are just setting yourself up for disappointment. No, you won't be fiddling with the registry with your MAC...but you will be making an "appointment" to goto the Apple store and pay some tech to do the equivalent for you...pretty much what you could do with a PC as well.

You can break issues down into Hardware and Software.... Apple is both a Hardware and Software vendor.... Microsoft is just software (unless you coun't X-box's, etc).

Apple's a good, reliable HW manufacturer and if you stick with components & periphrials from it's brand you won't run into too many interoperability issues. Same holds true for pretty much any good quality PC hardware vendor.

Software...if you stick to stuff that came bundled with your system or produced by the vendors themselves...it should run just fine without too many issues.

Once you start going to 3rd party vendors (HW or Software) it's pot luck whether you'll run into interoperability issues or problems with installs & uninistalls... That holds true REGARDLESS of whether you run a MAC or a PC.

The only difference between the two is that MAC has far fewer choices of vendors that it supports (though it has grown alot in recent years)... so there is less variation in the results that people get.

Just as a matter of example I'm posting this from a Windows 2000 PC that I have had running for 9 years that has had ZERO crashes in that time...that I have about 50 different programs installed on...and that I've HAD to do ZERO registry edits or other technical fiddling on....Though I HAVE done a little...not because I needed to fix anything but because I wanted to customize some of the functionality of the OS.

Note...the lack of problems that I've had is not because I'm an IT Pro....it's simply because of the Hardware & Software that I am using on my work PC.

Now with my home machine (VISTA)...I HAVE had to fiddle with it on occasion....but that's because of the software (games) that I've chosen to install on it. The reason that I had to fiddle with it had nothing to do with it being a PC.... if those game developers had written thier installers for a MAC...I'd have had to do exactly the same sort of fiddling. That's really the bottom line.

Now it's true in the OLD, OLD days (DOS)...it WAS alot harder for a home user to setup and use a PC then an Apple....but that hasn't really been the case for many years (IMO).

(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 15
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/17/2010 3:39:01 AM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		GrumpyMel-

Sorry I got back to you rather late. I saw your post but had to rush out with some friends and relations for a meal here in Porto Garibaldi, Italy, but now I'm back.

Don't worry about trying not to get into a major debate. I understand totally - I don't want to either. I want to make it clear that I do appreciate you jumping in at the risk of getting into a heated debate, trying to point out what is false and what is not. I'm not going to allow myself to get all heated up because basically I don't know enough. I'm really trying to get to the nuts and bolts of the matter.

Obviously I know what I want my computer to do but whether that is technically possible or unrealistic or at what cost it would take to achieve it is another matter.

I'm at a disadvantage because I do not have the technical know-how to argue back. I have been swinging back and forth on the internet between the two arguments for and against the Mac. I will read up a computer expert saying how he prefers the Mac and then the next minute I am reading your post realizing that you too are a computer expert warning me that it is not necessarily quite true. So I feel that I'm being tossed about a little bit.

However, I sat down and read through several times what you wrote, trying to take it in, and it does make sense what you are saying. Even though I don't have the technical knowledge, I can see what you are driving at.

I think I can see how Mac is making themselves appear to be, in a slightly superficial sense, more safe to use because they are putting the whole thing under one simple package limiting its borders to a restricted number of programmes it knows it can use, giving the user that safe feeling.

So in essence ANY Operating System can do that if they wanted to. Any OS can stick to a limited number of vendors. Mac has taken that route, since they have the hardware aswell, so they have wrapped it up into a neat package BUT it means limiting itself from programmes (am I right in saying this?) outside of their pretty little box of hardware and software called Mac.

Mac has the software AND the hardware and they are putting it all together under on roof or package. By doing this they have enclosed themselves in a nice safe place reducing risk from incompatibilites. But in essence, Mac is still a PC and is still liable to problems as JonDgar said above: "But they are still computers. Anyone who tells you Macs don't have cryptic error messages, is lying. They do. I've had a few. I've also had software crashes and even had the OS itself crash or reboot. Not often, but it does happen. Just like Windows. I have a firewall activated and anti-virus software installed on my Mac too. Whatever OS you run, it's foolhardy not to protect yourself against online threats."

So users of Mac have fallen into a safe little world run and ruled by Mac but it means also that they are less open to other applications coming from the outside world. Actually it almost makes me feel sick because it conjures up a picture of us all being servile to Mac almost like a religion. In effect am I correct in saying that with Windows they are open to the outside market more? With Windows there is more freedom to pick and choose and do your own thing, possibly prone to more issues but at least you have the freedom. Mac on the other hand is playing it safe but more restrictive? I don't know if this is accurate but I'm taking a "stab at it".

However JondGar did say in his post above which got me thinking again: "Personally though, I find a lot more value in the software that comes with on a new Mac compared to what you get with a Windows PC. When the time came to upgrade the OS on my gaming rig, I was looking at $250-$500 for Windows7 here in Australia. I upgraded the Mac to the latest Snow Leopard OS for $40! But monetary cost aside. Compare the bundled software you get in this price. Windows includes MS Paint, Windows Media Player, a few solitaire games, Windows Movie Maker, Sound Recorder, Windows (MSN) Messenger, etc. Anybody who compares these programs with iLife will come to the same conclusion. The Apple software is intuitive, refined, polished and simply a pleasure to use.".

So I think I know what it is you are trying to convey to me...I think so anyway. Difficult for me because I don't know enough about computers.

Anyway, when I get back to England (I was actually born in Canada - long story) in June/July 2010 I will need to get a new computer. I'm actually using a laptop here in Italy because my real computer was sent to England ahead of me. I was using Windows XP. This laptop is Vista.

Which OS is better Windows XP, Vista or some other? The problem is most games use Windows XP and not Vista. So my first impulse is to go back to Windows XP. I think I heard it said that Vista is not as powerful for games as Windows XP, is that correct?

And is it true that eventually Windows XP is going to give way to Vista? If that is the case, I hope future gaming will change to Vista.

Once again thanks for taking your time to explain it all to me. I think I am getting the picture now. I still cannot say which way I will go on this issue. It depends on whether something else is said that creates another conflict. But at the moment I am leaning a little towards Windows again. I have to admit that the Mac interface does strike me as a bit "toyish" or "kiddyish" for my taste, which puts me off. Windows looks more adult and professional.

Phew! Can I go back to bed now? And it was me who started all this!

Thanks for your help. wolf7279


(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 16
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/17/2010 4:39:51 AM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		Sorry. The above post I ended it with "wolf7279" when in fact it should be "wolf727"!

(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 17
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/17/2010 5:38:34 AM   
GrumpyMel

 

Posts: 864
Joined: 12/28/2007
Status: offline 		Wolf727,

Not sure what MAC comes bundled with these days. What you get when you buy when you buy a PC depends on the vendor you buy the PC from...and often even the model. So if your buying an Optiplex from Dell...you'll get one set of software bundled. If your buying a Compaq Presario you'll get a different bundle. Sometimes you'll even have an option of what software bundles to take. Windows comes with a few standard utilities....actualy not a bad variety....and a bunch more stoff that you can load on from the DvD if you choose. Most of the bundled software you get on a PC doesn't come from the OS though...it comes from whatever software vendors the PC vendor has a deal with. However, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that MAC OS X bundles more stuff into the basic install. The question is...will it be stuff you actualy use?

Bundled software/services and utilities is kinda a double edged sword. There IS a convenience factor in having everything installed for you in advance just in case you need it. On the other hand, the more stuff that's installed on your system, the more things that can go wrong...the more chances for interoperability problems you have....and the more resources they take up on the computer, even if thier just sitting there doing nothing. It's also a basic rule of security that the only applications/services you want loaded on your computer are the ones that you actualy use. Basicaly every app/service you install is a potential attack vector for a hacker. So not installing anything that you actualy don't need reduces the attack vector. I personaly like to have pretty minimal bundled software installed and just add on what I need when I need it.... in fact one of the first things I do with a new computer is to go through and UNINSTALL most of the bundled software that comes with it....along with disabling any services I won't be using.

This is just personal preference though....so I don't really mind installing stuff when I want it...or doing a little extra work here and there to get my computer setup the way I like it. It's a perfectly valid option for most home users to want everything preloaded.... it just complicates your environment and resource usage a little. If you DO decide to go the PC route...definately look at what software they are giving you with it. It IS part of the value of what you are being sold.

Honestly I wouldn't try to dissuade you from buying a MAC at all....for the average home user (and even some business users) it's a perfectly fine computer.....and it is built on a UNIX kernal...and UNIX itself is certainly anything but toyish. I just take issue with the "it just works...no hassles...no problems" line of advertising from Apple... It's simply not factualy accurate...and to the degree that MAC may have fewer vendor interoperability issues...it comes with it's own price tag. The only real arguement that I'd make for you going the PC route is that you are a gamer.... and you say you want things just to be simple. Due to pretty poor support for the MAC OS from most games that means that you are going to have to run WINDOWS anyway (whether you dual boot, run it inside a virtual machine...or run some kind of emulater. That's anything but simple....essentialy your going to have to run BOTH Windows & MAC if you go that route and deal with the shortcomings of both. Just because you'd be running Windows on MAC hardware or even in a virtual machine doesn't mean you'd get to escape ANY of the complications you didn't like about Windows.....Windows still works (registry edits and all) the way Windows works on a PC when you are running in that mode. So you then get the hassles of BOTH a PC & a MAC.

That definately won't make your computer usage any simpler or more hassle free.... although for people that really like the MAC OS for other reasons and still want to game...it certainly CAN be a workable solution....as the one guy mentioned here that he did. However, if your not particulary jazzed about the MAC OS for other reasons....and you know that you are going to run games that only work in windows...I don't really see why you would want to run 2 OS's instead of one.

As far as VISTA vs XP..... I wouldn't reccomend VISTA for business use, as it still has some issues there (My company is still standardized on XP) but for home use and gaming it is perfectly fine (it IS what I use currently). Vista had a pretty horrible launch....and alot of issues when it first came out....but that's pretty much all been resolved for it at this point...and I've found game support is actualy very good on Vista.... Advanced Tactics runs perfectly fine on it, I know that. So I wouldn't shy away from Vista at this point if you bought a new PC. It's main remaining issue is that it's a bit bloated (uses up alot of hardware resources for how it performs) but it's perfectly fine for running most games if you get good hardware specs with it.

The future of PC software support (including Gaming) will NOT lie with Vista....it will lie with Windows 7....which they may actualy try to sell you on your new PC depending on when/where you buy it. Vista will still be around...but it'll be an orphan in a few years time with dwindling support. Microsoft is going full bore with marketing Windows 7 these days. An important note, I haven't actually tried Windows 7 yet myself....but as a general rule (this is a pretty safe rule with ANY major new OS)....if you want to avoid hassles and interoperability issues....I'd wait about 6 more months before I'd consider trying Windows 7, if you went the PC route....by that time most of the usual launch and support issues should be worked out. Just my advice...YMMV.






(in reply to wolf727)
Post #: 18
RE: Mac v PC: Can it be played on Mac? - 3/17/2010 12:35:56 PM   
wolf727


Posts: 29
Joined: 8/11/2009
From: From Italy
Status: offline 		GrumpyMel,

Definitely a thank you for the response - I'm beginning to get a clearer picture of what it is all about with these OSs. Obviously my picture is just a general one and I would begin to get lost if we start talking in detail about registries and so on. Actually, if I had the time I would have liked to read up more on the actual workings of the computer, like getting a simple book on the PC - PC for Dummies would be a start.

Your post was well written and you were able to give me a rough understanding of the issues involved between Mac and the other OSs. I can see how Mac would bend or stretch the truth a little with the issue "it just works...no hassles...no problems" line of advertising from Apple... It's simply not factualy accurate...and to the degree that MAC may have fewer vendor interoperability issues...it comes with it's own price tag".

You mentioned you did not like Mac's UI any particular reason? I can't explain why but when Windows XP came out I liked it. It is my preferred OS so far. Looking at Mac's UI, from what they show on YouTube, just looks a little too toyish for my taste. I'm sure you are right about what Mac is running on: "and it is built on a UNIX kernal...and UNIX itself is certainly anything but toyish". But it would be interesting for me to know what it is that puts you off the Mac's UI. You know more about computers than I do and so I would like to hear it from an expert's perspective.

You wrote: "An important note, I haven't actually tried Windows 7 yet myself....but as a general rule (this is a pretty safe rule with ANY major new OS)....if you want to avoid hassles and interoperability issues....I'd wait about 6 more months before I'd consider trying Windows 7, if you went the PC route....by that time most of the usual launch and support issues should be worked out. Just my advice...YMMV".

Yes, I always did that myself anyway. Whenever some new product comes out people I knew always rushed out to buy it but I waited for months before buying it myself. Just to see if there were any issues, giving them time to sort it out and then I would buy the product.

I had to get a laptop very quickly in Italy because I needed to receive business emails and I was suddenly without my main computer that was sent to England. Very long story to go into. Unfortunately all the laptops were using Vista as their OS and I did not want that! So when I get back to England I will have to decide what OS to use. It will either be I suppose Windows7 or dare I say it the Mac. But I'm still dubious with Mac. It's great that it may have less issues for all the reasons explained beforehand but it has a large price tag, it seems a bit of PS3 type of thing. It may be difficult to upgrade later on as the years go by or I am wrong about that? I don't know. I just don't want to know that I have just opted for an OS system that is more "kiddy-like" and less professional and business orientated. Some time in the future, when I get back to England, I will want to read up more on computers. I can't do that at this particular moment in time.

Anyway it will be interesting for me what I eventually decide upon when I get back to England. There is a computer shop there I usually go to and he usually gives me good solid sensible advice.

And that's another thing. If something does go wrong with a Mac how happy are my computer shops willing to fix it. If I have to go to Mac, where the hell are they? How far would I have to carry this Mac to get it fixed? At least with computer shops they are all over the place. Mac? Where the hell are these Mac repair shops and how good is their back up support? Probably I will have to take it to Macdonalds! Many thanks for your helpful comments.


< Message edited by wolf727 -- 3/17/2010 12:47:26 PM >

(in reply to GrumpyMel)
Post #: 19
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