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why is this cl worth 42 vp?

 
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why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 2:23:39 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		The Oyodo?
Is 42 vp a typo?
Seems like an ordinary cl, or is it a ca an listed as a cl in error?
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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 2:41:26 PM   
Misconduct


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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

The Oyodo?
Is 42 vp a typo?
Seems like an ordinary cl, or is it a ca an listed as a cl in error?


No the Oyodo was a light cruiser, designed to aid submarines with 6 float planes

(in reply to freeboy)
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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 2:45:20 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		ok, I looke on the ships sunk screan and pehaps missed this, I am not complaining just suprised to see those vp.. some of the allied cl are pricy too

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 2:47:32 PM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		I believe its probably due to being a warship, carriers and battleships can range over 300 VP, so I would say 30-40 isn't to shabby for a CL

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 2:49:27 PM   
JuanG


Posts: 906
Joined: 12/28/2008
Status: offline 		VP's are based on ship durability (except CV's, where airgroup size also factors in IIRC), which is based on ship size. Oyodo was rather new and large for a Japanese CL, and thus the high durability and VP value.

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 3:01:00 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		Oyoda was a most unusual ship, especially for its designed mission. In fact if you look at it from just about any angle, it is incredibly over-priced for what you get, and I am not talking about the game. It was designed to scout for submarines using a seaplane that was never built. It has the same armament as an Agano, but it is larger, the gunnery arangement is less flexible (2x3 instead of 3x2 and all forward) and it has less armor both in thickness and distribution. OTOH it has the same main AA armament as an Akizuki DD.

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 3:08:18 PM   
freeboy

 

Posts: 9088
Joined: 5/16/2004
From: Colorado
Status: offline 		well lets hope my ship sunk screens are correct and it actually sunk, I have sunk Kaga five times this game alone!

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 3:11:28 PM   
Q-Ball


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Joined: 6/25/2002
From: Chicago, Illinois
Status: offline 		Oyodo was yet another case of the IJN squandering limited resources in mis-guided tactical doctrines.

She had a huge hanger though, so on the flip side, she made a great fleet HQ when that space was converted (Combined Fleet HQ later in the way). Like a floating office building!

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 3:23:28 PM   
herwin

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Oyodo was yet another case of the IJN squandering limited resources in mis-guided tactical doctrines.

She had a huge hanger though, so on the flip side, she made a great fleet HQ when that space was converted (Combined Fleet HQ later in the way). Like a floating office building!


After the war, we did similar conversions. During WWII, naval warships became volume limited rather than displacement limited.

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 4:13:08 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: herwin


quote:

ORIGINAL: Q-Ball

Oyodo was yet another case of the IJN squandering limited resources in mis-guided tactical doctrines.

She had a huge hanger though, so on the flip side, she made a great fleet HQ when that space was converted (Combined Fleet HQ later in the way). Like a floating office building!


After the war, we did similar conversions. During WWII, naval warships became volume limited rather than displacement limited.


Bit OT, but one interesting thing from Shattered Sword was the comparison between IJN CV command spaces and USN CV command spaces. It was remarkable how small and cramped the bridges of IJN CVs were and consequently this led to very cramped and overcrowded command area. This didn't help in decision-making during critical CV battles...


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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 5:07:40 PM   
Arimus

 

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Status: offline 		Are you saying that if Nagumo had a larger command center he would have waited for all his scout planes to report in before deciding to re-arm his reserve squadrons with bombs for Midway?

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Post #: 11
RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 5:15:52 PM   
Sardaukar


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Arimus

Are you saying that if Nagumo had a larger command center he would have waited for all his scout planes to report in before deciding to re-arm his reserve squadrons with bombs for Midway?


Well, Shattered Sword makes quite good argument that Nagumo's surroundings didn't promote good atmosphere for rational thinking... For example, he didn't have "flag bridge", where TF commanding admiral could withdraw with his staff to consider ops and plan for future. On contrary, Nagumo had to make his decisions among all hassle with normal ship navigation and air operations going on around him, with very overcrowded space too.

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 5:44:03 PM   
Arimus

 

Posts: 145
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Status: offline 		It is ironic that the military spends alot of time and effort to train its officers to make decisions under intense pressure and then try and reduce the pressure (doctrine, a staff, guidelines, etc).

Still, a flag bridge did nothing for Halsey when he decided to chase after the carrier decoys.
Wonder if he would have decided to stay if he was on a cramped bridge with 20 people yelling orders in Japanese?

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 5:46:54 PM   
Nikademus


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Status: offline 		The "room on the Bridge" argument is one of Shattered Sword's more questionable attempts to provide new 'relevent' factors to light. Kind of like counting the number of ammo carts. Would a bigger bridge or a couple more carts have changed anything?

Probably not but it was interesting.

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/18/2010 10:55:34 PM   
spence

 

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From: Vancouver, Washington
Status: offline 		Because the number of torpedo (not ammo) carts was only three only one of the 6 sections could be rearmed at any one time on each carrier. That imposes a very definite limit on how fast the torpedo planes could be rearmed which directly impacts the Fuchida's claim that the KB was just about to launch a massive strike to sink all the American CVs.

It is irrelevant actually. The screwed up plan from Yamamoto fed Nagumo's indecision and that contributed to the fact that 175 odd American strike planes were already in the air and making strikes on the KB before the Japanese had launched even one. The IJN air defense doctrine was not a particularly good one and sooner or later it was certain to break down. As it happened it was later rather than sooner but the breakdown occurred and Japan lost the battle.

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RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/19/2010 2:57:51 AM   
Dili

 

Posts: 4708
Joined: 9/10/2004
Status: offline 		I would love to read a book comparing all tactical doutrines and process decison by all great navies. For example in Italian navy there was the Captain Bridge and the Admiral Bridge
that is why Italian battleships have two levels with windows in the main control tower.
Btw space how people relation to it affect decisions and process, Edward T.Hall the men of proxemics, cultural distances and space said in one of his books that Churchill went in a fury when there was an idea to change the British Parliament design interior, the table and where and how both sides sit. He said promptly that it would change British Democracy.
I don't remember very well the chapters about japanese culture in his two book i have somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_T._Hall

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Post #: 16
RE: why is this cl worth 42 vp? - 3/19/2010 10:25:09 AM   
Sardaukar


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From: Finland/Israel
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Nikademus

The "room on the Bridge" argument is one of Shattered Sword's more questionable attempts to provide new 'relevent' factors to light. Kind of like counting the number of ammo carts. Would a bigger bridge or a couple more carts have changed anything?

Probably not but it was interesting.


I think you are comparing apples & oranges, so to speak. As an ex-officer, I know that command enviroment has lot of effect on command decisions and quality of those decisions. It's not necessarily major factor, but they all stack up, so to speak, building up pressure.

As with Nagumo's case, I doubt it would have helped if he has had "flag bridge", since whole plan was flawed from start. But there was a small chance that he might have saved couple of carriers if able to make decisions in less hectic enviroment.


_____________________________

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Post #: 17
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