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OOB for WatchWord Freedom - 11/20/2000 1:30:00 PM

JNL
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From: Massenheim, Germany
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I've started the Watchword Freedom Campaign. I'm currently at the Train Station. 1 Marginal (that first scen was a bugger) and 3 DV. I started a thread like this for the Utah to the Rhine Campaign - I thought it was interesting to see what people came up with for their core forces. Here's what I came up with: 2 Platoons of Tigers 2 Platoons of Stug IV (I'm unsure if these guys will go to Tigers or Panthers yet) 2 Platoons of FJ Paratroops (Minus the MG) 1 Leg FO 2 4 Man Recon Platoons (a) 1 Section of MG42 (a) 4 MG34 Sections (b) 14 2 Man Recon Sections (c) (a.) These will convert into FJ Paras that way I will have 1 squad per AFV. Tigers and Panthers are limited to 8 man carry capacity. The FJs have 9 men per squad - since I play with reduced squads on I don't give up too much when I load them up. Plus the FJs Fire Control of 4 doesn't hurt either. (b.) This campaign being set in early '44 - I figured the Russians would own the sky. I've found that AA bought from support just doesn't cut it. I felt I would really need some core AA to keep the Sturmvioks at bay. As I start Scen 4 they have been converted to 2 88mm AA, 2 20mm Flakverlig, 2 Sections of SP251/17 (? The AA 1/2track with 1 20mm and 2 MG34 AA MGs). So far Russian airpower hasn't really been a factor. Of the 3 scens I have played I've only seen 4 A/C. However, I didn't see those A/C for very long! The mobile AA also lends a hand with Russian Inf. (c.) These are my cheater guys. I have upgraded these sections into 12 75mm FH and 2 Ammo Trucks. I normally would have gone to 120mm mortars but I needed the upgrade points for AA, Inf, and AFV. The Germans don't have the .01 delay with onboard arty that the US player does (boy do I miss it too) - but I can live with the .04 delay. You won't kill anything with these guys, but.......makes for almost insta smokescreen, is very useful to suppress fortifications, and indispensable for softening up Russian Inf. Not very a historical OOB but it does suit my playing style. I do take advantage of the upgrade any unit to any other type of unit. I like to keep AFV and Inf squads in very close proximity to each other. The benefits of mutual support they give each other is vital. I gotta have arty to soften up the objectives (or path to the objectives). This frees up my support points for stuff like OBA, Cargo Planes for Para Drops and other such amenities. How about the rest of you?

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JNL

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- 11/20/2000 2:21:00 PM

cjpaul
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Here's a list of my core: Headquarters: HQ unit 1 Sdkfz 251/1 (to move HQ in relative security and to be able to rally suppressed units) Recon: 2 Sdkfz 250/1 (upgraded from Kuebelwagens) 2 Sdkfz 234/2 Puma (these keep getting destroyed every battle) 3 Sdkfz 251/22 (they follow the Pumas and usually take out what takes out the Pumas) Artillery: 1 Forward Observer 1 Kettenkraftrad (to give FO independant mobility without being able to be spotted) 4 Sdkfz251 w/ Wurfrahmen 40 (very devastating BUT very inaccurate) 2 Ammo supply trucks Kampfgruppe: 8 Panther A (only Panthers; Tigers are too slow) 2 Nashorn (the reach of the 88L71 is a big advantage) 3 Platoon Engineer (1 Plt upgraded from rifle plt; rifle plt didn't have enough firepower) I've only upgraded the Kuebelwagons. I don't want to have a core that is too unbalanced, i.e. too many tanks, or artillery etc., so I haven't upgraded anything else. Besides, the recon force is very valuable and it's more challenging to get the engineers into position without getting them massacred than using tanks. Also, engineers take fewer repair points than tanks and I wasn't sure how many points Wild Bill would grant in between battles.

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- 11/20/2000 2:25:00 PM

Fredde
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From: Goteborg, Sweden
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1 Tiger platoon 1 Panther platoon 1 Cavalry platoon 1 Kubelwagon scout platoon 1 SS Rifle company 1 Pioneer platoon 1 Command Car

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"If infantry is the Queen of the battlefield, artillery is her backbone", Jukka L. Mäkelä about the Finnish victory at Ihantala.

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- 11/20/2000 4:48:00 PM

Hortlund
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Here are my guys: Recon: 2 Puma, 1 SPW 251/22 Hvy Pz: 2 Tigers Med Pz: 2 Panther StuG: 4 StuG IV (2 sec) FT: 2 FT HT Inf: 2x SS Mech Plt, Spec ops plt Eng: Mech Eng Platoon Arty: 2 Mtr HT's Misc: Ammo trucks, 2 snipers Off to war we go...I'm gonna land my spec ops and snipers with gliders around the eastern crossroads. One SS plt together with 2 Stug's and the FT HT's take the village to the south. The rest of my force fights their way up the road. All support points spent on arty (Only cowards buy ground troops for their support points

) Thats the plan..lets see how it works.. Steve ------------------ Panzerjaeger Hortlund -=Fear is only a state of mind=-

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In its place we are entering a period of consequences..

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- 11/20/2000 8:33:00 PM

Wild Bill
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Well, let's see what is in my TOE I start with Panzer sections instead of platoons. That way command is easier to maintain between 2 tanks instead of four. 3 PzV sections 4 PzVe sections 1 Platoon SS Troops (better quality) 1 Platoon Engineers (I give up the extra men to load them onto tanks. Halftracks don't last long and end up being more expensive than the lost of one soldier) The rest of the core force depends. I always get a platoon of motorcycles. They are great for recon and scooting across the map. And always some artillery AND at least two observers. If you get one and he dies, you could be in a world of pain! As to the Russian aircraft. The weather was ugly in Feb.44 and aircraft just did not make that big of a contribution to this particular operation on either side. Good hunting guys...WB ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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Wild Bill Wilder
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- 11/21/2000 12:56:00 AM

Drake
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Will for my core I wount with the fallowing 1 SS Mech Company minus the stugs 1 Stug Bat of Stug IVs (10 Total) 2 Arm Recon AT Platoons (6 Spw-251/22) 2 Recon Platoons 1 forward Observer 3 AT-Gun platoons to be upgraded to arty later Lets see the First battle was hill, did not use the support points and that made it real fun

Germany 17807 (Decisive) Soviets 1944 Germans lost 147 men, 5 APCs and 6 AFVs Over half my Stug IVs

Reds lost 397 men, 4 arty, 4 APCs and 33 AFVs Two of the Stugs in this battle got 8 Tank kills each. Made me happy

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- 11/21/2000 2:48:00 AM

Charles22
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Wild Bill: Have you ever considered that with a platoon vs a section, that there are also disadvantages to having two commanders? What I'm talking about, is how effective is the subordinate tank if the leader is destroyed? With a platoon, you can keep the leader hidden, as I often do, and then bring it up after the enemy has pretty much committed to destroying the three subordinates. Protecting the leader, and getting it perhaps easy kills during mop-ups, has quite an effect during campaigns. If one buys sections because there's more leaders/versatility, and you use your leader just as combative as the subordinates, then the command ability can really suffer (for half of your losses will be leaders). Perhaps you aren't a campaigner, but still. I do on occassion prefer sections, particularly if the visibility is low (when buying support), because that way they can cover twice the area for the fires that'll break out when on the defensive. Hmm, now I got to thinking again. IF a commander's tank is destroyed, do the subordinate units only suffer if the leader's crew is destroyed also? I don't know, but I apparently hadn't taken that into account since the versions that included surviving crews. Here's a question: Do leaders generally have higher experience/morale ratings than the subs (maybe a dumb question, but I've never noticed)? If so, and if a leader tank getting destroyed, but not losing the crew doesn't hurt the subordinate, then surely the edge has to go to sections over platoons, however, the section that doesn't protect the leader, may be less versatile for no longer having transport (a major consideration for the nations consistently without radios) for the leader, as opposed to a platoon which has protected the leader.

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- 11/21/2000 4:07:00 AM

Wild Bill
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You brought up some good points, Charles. I can see the validity of the argument of keep the formation leader safer with the buffer. No real way to say about the leaders, if they are better. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. It varies quite a bit. Sometimes the subs are better in quality than the actual leaders. Wild Bill ------------------ In Arduis Fidelis Wild Bill Wilder Coordinator, Scenario Design Matrix Games

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- 11/21/2000 1:26:00 PM

JNL
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From: Massenheim, Germany
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Good input - always interesting to see how the other gamer does it. Couple of thoughts on my OOB as of Scen 5: I've found Tigers much more valuable than the Panthers. Is it just me or do they hit harder and more often? The Panther has better penetration values for its main gun - but my Tigers seem to just kick butt. My favorites are Panthers - but I'm kinda sorry now I went 1/2 Tigers and 1/2 Panthers. My Tiger crews have never been changed out - I upgraded from Stug IVs to Panthers - maybe the upgrade hurt them more than I thought. My AA was a waste of points so far. The mobile guns have been of some value. The static guns just get in the way. The 75mm FHs lack hitting power. My next go around I will cut down the number of them and go with (8) 81mm mortar or Wespe. I tried the "Wuffies" (Rocket Armed 1/2 Tracks) as support units in Scen 2. Their range is a little short for me and they are wildly inaccurate. Boy - when those rounds land in the right place they do some serious hurt. An excellent campaign - well up to the standards I've come to expect from WB. Its been allot of fun playing with the Big Toys in this one. I just read the post on the "Victors". One of my favorite AI campaigns is US vs. Russia in 1948. Brits vs. Russia in 1948 is a fun one too. Driving a bunch of Centurions with 20lber guns with high accuracy and F/C is almost like taking M1s against the Iraqis in SP2.

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- 11/21/2000 7:33:00 PM

Charles22
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With JNL's analysis of some units, I noticed a couple of prize units for the Germans while messing around with a 6/41 campaign against Russians. This camapign gives me more starting points (approx. 700 more) than in my usual '39 campaign and of course more units are available. With more points I then directed some attention to actually buying some units for anti-personnel duty exclusively. At first, I started off with some 81mm mortars (or are the Gerry ones 82mm? I forget), and bought a forward observor in core too. Well, I found better, though more expensive units to replace them. First off, the German HT with the mortar is better than the foor soldiers, not only because of mobility, but also because the mortar has 20 more rounds max. and of course has a better secondary armanent. It's sort of a preliminary Hummel/Wespe, though it better be worth the 99 pts. On the other hand, the replacement for the FO, was a real no-brainer. Two different 'Beobs' (mobile FOs) are offered. One is your basic HT with a size of three, and maybe 70 pt expense. On the other hand, though, the basic Beob is size "1", in other words, not only is it only like two pts. more expensive than the foot FO, but it also has the 'size' of the foot FO, so that it enjoys inexpense, difficulty to be spotted because of lack of size, and it also is mobile (and hard-topped, unlike the FO HT). The Beob may be one of the most cost-efficient units in the game for those who want to at least use a little artillery. [This message has been edited by Charles22 (edited November 21, 2000).]

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- 11/21/2000 8:50:00 PM

Gallo Rojo
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Because of the C&C stuff I like to have leaders with the heist range as possible. So I use to buy Companies rather than Platoons and delete some platoons from the company, so as at the end I have a section with a Lt or some like this, and a platoon. I did this stuff and I finally remind with the next: Panzers: One Tiger Section One Tiger Platoon One PzIVh Section (to improve to Panthers ASAP) One Panther Platoon Infantry: 1 PzGranadier Platoon 1 Mech Engineers platoon Recon: 1 motorcycle section (I hope to improve them to Psw-231 ASAP) Artillery: 1 SP Mortar section (in order to improve them to rocket launchers) 1 Hummel 1 sniper (to improve to Hummel)

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- 11/21/2000 11:20:00 PM

lnp4668
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I tend to use mainly AFVs in my core forces then fills it out with infantry and artillery with auxilaries. My core forces tends to last better that way. 1 HQ VIb 2 platoons VIb 3 platoons Flampanzer 38 1 platoons Flakpaner

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- 11/21/2000 11:45:00 PM

john g
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quote:

Originally posted by Gallo Rojo: Because of the C&C stuff I like to have leaders with the heist range as possible. So I use to buy Companies rather than Platoons and delete some platoons from the company, so as at the end I have a section with a Lt or some like this, and a platoon. I did this stuff and I finally remind with the next: Panzers: One Tiger Section One Tiger Platoon One PzIVh Section (to improve to Panthers ASAP) One Panther Platoon Infantry: 1 PzGranadier Platoon 1 Mech Engineers platoon Recon: 1 motorcycle section (I hope to improve them to Psw-231 ASAP) Artillery: 1 SP Mortar section (in order to improve them to rocket launchers) 1 Hummel 1 sniper (to improve to Hummel)

You have to watch when you convert infantry class units to vehicles. I did something of the same sort in my WWII campaign, I converted snipers to Nashorns. That didn't last long, the units still have infantry biased leaders, so your armor command rating is about 20 pts below what it should be. Those units eventually turned into Mobelwagens, where the few kills they carried forward helped shoot down planes. But as tank killing Nashorns they were a bust, they had a kill ratio of about 1 to 2 which means they died more often than their targets. If you want a cheap unit to convert to an expensive vehicle later on, buy command cars, generally useless, (though they can capture vic hexes, which a sniper can't), but they come with a vehicle leader. I learned to stay within leader type when converting units, though some of the top scoring units in my campaign were the mg34s that were part of the engineer company that converted to Pz1 (mobile armored mg's) then converted to PzIIIj, then PzVIe, and finally to PZVIb. thanks, John.

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- 11/22/2000 1:52:00 PM

cjpaul
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After seeing other people's equipment lists, I've noticed that I'm one of the few who doesn't use Tigers. Those of you who have Tigers and Panthers, do you employ them differently? I don't use Tigers because of the tactics that I normally use. In defence I use 3 levels. The first is a light screen of machine guns/scout patrols to separate the infantry from the tanks. (This works very well against the USSR.) Then the main infantry line, usually 4 or 5 hexes behind the 1st line. The 3rd line is made up of the tanks and is used as a moble reserve to go to the most threatened area(s) of the 2nd line. I've found Panthers to be better for this type of strategy. Tigers usually can't get there in time to be decisive. To assualt or advance, I use a recon to probe for weaknesses, usually recon teams/light scout vehicles, followed by armored cars/light tanks. Once I find a likely weak spot, I send in engineers in halftracks to crack the line and once that is accomplished, I send the main tank force through to finish getting through the line and then to disrupt the rear or hit a flank. Again Tigers, IMHO, just can't move fast enough to do so. If I have Tigers, I use them to crack the line, instead. Tigers and/or Panthers, is it tactics or just personal preference?

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- 11/22/2000 6:17:00 PM

Gallo Rojo
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quote:

Originally posted by john g: I learned to stay within leader type when converting units, though some of the top scoring units in my campaign were the mg34s that were part of the engineer company that converted to Pz1 (mobile armored mg's) then converted to PzIIIj, then PzVIe, and finally to PZVIb. thanks, John.

That’s a good point! I knew that there was some troubles changing units form one class to another, but I didn’t know that it was that big! I will do another think. I’ll change my sniper to a Forward Observer. That leaves me with only two SPW-251/2 to convert into some other SPA weapon: Hummel or Wurfgrnte. I listened a lot about the Wurfgrnte, but I’m not sure if I will buy 2 Wrg or one Wrg and a Hummel. What do you recommend me? Is Wurfgrnte as good as every body say?

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- 11/22/2000 6:17:00 PM

Fredde
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Definately tactics. The Tigers heavier gun and armour is ideal for both tank vs tank fighting and taking out fortifications. In defence, a properly placed Tiger can be the turning point of a battle, with much more survivability than the Panther. My Tiger platoon has so far been used as the back bone of my defence in those scenarios, together with my SS Rifle company and as infantry support tanks/AT capability for my slower forces. My Panther platoon has been used as the reserve force for the defence scenarios. Their great mobility allows me to place them where i want them very fast to add extra punch to the defenders there, working together with my mechanized Pioneer platoon. On offence, i've been using the Panthers as flanking units together with Pioneers and cavalry, and in other roles which require fast moving. Almost through the seventh scenario of Watchword Freedom (marginal, decisive, draw, marginal, decisive, marginal my results so far), with my Tiger platoon averaging 30 kills each and the Panthers around 15.. much dependent on the different roles they played.

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- 11/22/2000 6:19:00 PM

Gallo Rojo
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quote:

Originally posted by cjpaul: Tigers and/or Panthers, is it tactics or just personal preference?

I use Tiger firstly because of aesthetics reason: “it’s a beautiful tank”!

... and for historical reasons... and as we’re speaking about history: earlier Panthers had a lot of mechanical and engine problems. Although this is may be not really well accurate in SPWaW because break downs depends on the country rather that each individual weapon, if this were the real battle you would probably see a good portion of you Panthers out of action due mechanical break downs. ... and as I expect face a lot of entrenched soviet infantry I would like to have some 88 guns rather that only 75. One question you all of you: Speaking about OOB... Can one have OBA in one’s core units? I think that is not possible, but I remember to have read that some one had...

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- 11/22/2000 7:41:00 PM

cjpaul
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Since I've been using the Wurfrahmen, I'll make a few comments. 1. They are extremely effective - He kill of 28 or 32. 2. They are extremely inaccurate - in one battle, a salvo from them fell about 6 or 7 hexes short of the targeted hex and took out 2 Panthers, so beware! 3. They have a short range - only 56 hexes, so sometimes it can be difficult positioning them to cover all of the likely targets. 4. There must be a system to resupply them, because they only carry 6 rockets - enough for one salvo. 5. Their reply time is usually 1.1 turns, so a Wespe, Hummel or mortar has an advantage here. After using them for 5 battles, I've decided they are a good choice, especially since they only cost about 300 points (a platoon and 2 supply trucks).

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