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RE: When? - 3/21/2010 7:49:48 PM

NeverMan

Posts: 1722
Joined: 2/24/2004
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that the more people you have on a project, the more time is wasted in 'meetings'.

It is like this... two programmers get the job done in 65% to 75% of the time taken by one - at twice the cost.

Three programmer might get the job done in 40% of the time - at three times the cost.

We have a saying in the business... There are three qualifiers - Fast, Inexpensive, Quality. Pick any 2. You are not allowed to have all 3. EVER!

This is mostly pure nonsense, just sounds like piss poor management to me.

So you don't think there is any advantage to parallelizing work? Why not just have one programmer do everything? Would that be even faster? LOL, nonsense.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 1861

RE: When? - 3/21/2010 11:20:45 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

Think about it... The more people on the project, the more time is spent on meetings.

More people on the project means the project will be done in less 'CALENDAR' time. Unfortunately, it also means that it will be done with more 'MAN HOUR' time.

Is there anyone who has actually managed a project that will refute that statement?

Oh and by the way.... I have spent 85% of my 27 year career being 'one programmer on a project'. Small businesses needing custom software can seldom afford it any other way.

The last project I did solo ended up being 140,000 lines of code - so we are not talking about dink projects.

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 1862

RE: When? - 3/22/2010 10:22:47 AM

vonpaul

Posts: 178
Joined: 8/5/2004
From: Sydney, Australia
Status: offline

A very cynical view SamuraiProgrammer, and IMO an incorrect one.

People working together effectively is much more efficient than working separately. Especially in creative and technical job types. It does require management so if that is poor than it might be better to work alone however.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 1863

RE: When? - 3/22/2010 7:54:29 PM

MajorDude

Posts: 199
Joined: 1/20/2009
Status: offline

One productive scientific research method used in some engineering schools is to "pair" two student researchers together who actually have almost diametrically opposed approaches, styles, opinions, and even preferred methodologies.

The constant need to "prove" things to one another tightens up the scientific credibility of the ongoing work and often leads to a stronger position and quality in the final presentation.

This type of collaboration is thus seen as productive and not wasteful. I don't see why the same could not be true of computer programming, unless it would take too long to bring a new colleague up to speed and be sure of retaining that individual once he/she becomes acclimated to the project.

(in reply to vonpaul)

Post #: 1864

RE: When? - 3/22/2010 8:06:53 PM

SamuraiProgrmmr

Posts: 353
Joined: 10/17/2004
From: Paducah, Kentucky
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: MajorDude

One productive scientific research method used in some engineering schools is to "pair" two student researchers together who actually have almost diametrically opposed approaches, styles, opinions, and even preferred methodologies.

The constant need to "prove" things to one another tightens up the scientific credibility of the ongoing work and often leads to a stronger position and quality in the final presentation.

This type of collaboration is thus seen as productive and not wasteful. I don't see why the same could not be true of computer programming, unless it would take too long to bring a new colleague up to speed and be sure of retaining that individual once he/she becomes acclimated to the project.

'Better result' is not the same thing as 'less man-hours to reach a result'

Clearly 'two heads are better than one'. I am only saying that two heads are more expensive than one and that because of the time spent communicating, two heads will be slight more than twice as expensive as one.

To vonpaul...

Your remarks seem to say that by adding a second person the number of man-hours to complete the project are reduced.

Is that correct? I have a hard time believing it.

_____________________________

Bridge is the best wargame going .. Where else can you find a tournament every weekend?

(in reply to MajorDude)

Post #: 1865

RE: When? - 3/22/2010 8:19:38 PM

michaelbaldur

Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

there are no need for this discussion.

by the time we get another programmer up to speed. the game will be finished.

this was a discussion we should have had years ago

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 1866

RE: When? - 3/23/2010 10:38:24 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Think about it... The more people on the project, the more time is spent on meetings.

More people on the project means the project will be done in less 'CALENDAR' time. Unfortunately, it also means that it will be done with more 'MAN HOUR' time.

Is there anyone who has actually managed a project that will refute that statement?

Oh and by the way.... I have spent 85% of my 27 year career being 'one programmer on a project'. Small businesses needing custom software can seldom afford it any other way.

The last project I did solo ended up being 140,000 lines of code - so we are not talking about dink projects.

I have absolutely no experience un computing but a lot in managing teams. For me, what Sammurai Programmer says is the pure truth. The key is the part that I mark in bold.

(in reply to SamuraiProgrmmr)

Post #: 1867

RE: When? - 3/23/2010 10:42:00 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: michaelbaldur

there are no need for this discussion.

by the time we get another programmer up to speed. the game will be finished.

this was a discussion we should have had years ago

Had this discussion with what purpose?

Steve is the one who will take the decissions and he can take a helper or codeveloper only if he wants to.

Unless somebody wanted to ask Matrix to press on him or cancel the contract, which I think is extremely unprobable.

It's good to debate but let's not forget we are just opining, not deciding or trying to.

(in reply to michaelbaldur)

Post #: 1868

RE: When? - 3/23/2010 4:26:34 PM

composer99

Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline

Warning: Non sequitur ahead.

I hope Steve's April update will not come with a cruel April Fools' joke beforehand.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 1869

RE: When? - 3/23/2010 8:45:49 PM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Think about it... The more people on the project, the more time is spent on meetings.

More people on the project means the project will be done in less 'CALENDAR' time. Unfortunately, it also means that it will be done with more 'MAN HOUR' time.

Is there anyone who has actually managed a project that will refute that statement?

Oh and by the way.... I have spent 85% of my 27 year career being 'one programmer on a project'. Small businesses needing custom software can seldom afford it any other way.

The last project I did solo ended up being 140,000 lines of code - so we are not talking about dink projects.

I have absolutely no experience un computing but a lot in managing teams. For me, what Sammurai Programmer says is the pure truth. The key is the part that I mark in bold.

I actually took a course in building teams and then taught it to the first level managers who reported to me (oh, and also to some other first level managers who reported to my peers).

I use those concepts in developing MWIF with the help of the forum members. Some basic rules are:

1 - listen to everyone's ideas and comments; things from "out-of-left-field" can often provide an unexpected insight
2 - merge different ideas to make a better one
3 - when a task is best done by one or two people, have him/them work on it (i.e., don't add a bunch of non-contributing others); math calculations are a good example of where majority rules is a bad idea
4 - strive for consensus; by having everyone agree, you have a better chance of having reached a near-optimal solution; more importantly, if everyone agrees, performing the task is orders of magnitude easier [a long list of why that is true can be generated]
5 - delegate tasks to those best able to do them (a more general form of #3)

There was more stuff but I am working from memory 20+ years ago.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 1870

RE: When? - 3/24/2010 5:51:25 PM

Justascratch

Posts: 321
Joined: 2/7/2006
Status: offline

Well said Shannon.

I do think there is a point in which diminishing returns (adding more staff) can create a situation similar to samuri's argument. But most managers can spot that problem instantly and pare down quickly to improve efficiency.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1871

RE: When? - 3/24/2010 10:04:07 PM

mavraamides

Posts: 447
Joined: 4/1/2005
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: NeverMan

quote:

ORIGINAL: SamuraiProgrammer

Speaking from experience, I can tell you that the more people you have on a project, the more time is wasted in 'meetings'.

It is like this... two programmers get the job done in 65% to 75% of the time taken by one - at twice the cost.

Three programmer might get the job done in 40% of the time - at three times the cost.

We have a saying in the business... There are three qualifiers - Fast, Inexpensive, Quality. Pick any 2. You are not allowed to have all 3. EVER!

This is mostly pure nonsense, just sounds like piss poor management to me.

So you don't think there is any advantage to parallelizing work? Why not just have one programmer do everything? Would that be even faster? LOL, nonsense.

SP is spot on. The only time I've ever seen multiple programmers more efficient than one in terms of total man hours is when they are working on a job where different areas of expertise are needed.

For example, say you are building a website where you need an html/javascript programmer for the front end, a C++ programmer for the middleware and a SQL programmer for the backend. In that case, 3 different people with the appropriate expertise would likely be more efficient than any one of them trying to do all three. But that is only because each person is more efficient in their area of specialty.

And that is the rare exception. The vast majority of time, the more people working on a project, the less efficient the outcome in terms of total person hours to get to the final result.

There are all sorts of reasons for this:

Communication takes time. You can't be meeting and working at the same time.
8 people in a 1 hour team meeting is an entire man day not getting any real work done.
Multiple people working on the same source code can lead to locking each other out or lengthy and buggy code merges.
Etc....

FYI, I'm VP of Engineering for a high tech software company so I have more than a little experience on this issue.

(in reply to NeverMan)

Post #: 1872

RE: When? - 3/27/2010 11:51:51 PM

CarnivalBizarre

Posts: 11
Joined: 6/16/2009
Status: offline

I'm just amazed you guys seem to spend so much time in meetings. A meeting a month is just about right for a five people team.

If I did the work I did at my job alone in a basement my productivity would not be at the same level as in the team.

But I guess it depends on what you are doing. We are developing a roof construction/timber design software that has been going on for a few years now.

(in reply to mavraamides)

Post #: 1873

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 1:56:54 AM

Shannon V. OKeets

Posts: 22095
Joined: 5/19/2005
From: Honolulu, Hawaii
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnivalBizarre

I'm just amazed you guys seem to spend so much time in meetings. A meeting a month is just about right for a five people team.

If I did the work I did at my job alone in a basement my productivity would not be at the same level as in the team.

But I guess it depends on what you are doing. We are developing a roof construction/timber design software that has been going on for a few years now.

Depends on the project.

When I was jointly managing a team of 30 AI project managers/programmers, we met once a week for 1 hour. The rules for that meetiing were very exacting:
1 - all reports had to be submitted by the day before; no boring stuff in the reports, just the important news (e.g., decisions made, action items that needed approval).
2 - during the week, agenda items were posted on a common board by whoever wanted to discuss something - with an estimate of time needed.
3 - the final agenda was created by whoever was chairing the meeting about an hour before the meeting, based on the items on the board.
4 - the agenda had start and stop times for each item.
5 - the meeting started on time and ended on time with no exceptions.
6 - the first order of business was to agree on the agenda.
7 - the person who posted an agenda item was in charge of the discussion on his/her item.
8 - as the meeting progressed through the agenda items the clock was watched carefully; if an agenda item took too long, the meeting was stopped and a decision made about taking the time from some other item, or aborting the discussion on the current item.
9 - often a difficult item was assigned to a subgroup to deal with and report back to the full group. Note that those reports where emailed to everyone before the next meeting.
10 - the meetings always ended with a 5 minute go-around-the-room where everyone said what they liked/disliked about the meeting that just ended.

Because the time limits were so strictly enforced, people didn't blather about unimportant stuff, or go into their standard soapbox speeches. Focus on the crux of each topic was vital if you wanted the group to reach a decision about your item. The ending pluses/minuses segment made for continual improvement in the meetings. Indeed, the 10 points I listed above came about gradually based mainly on the feedback from numerous ending segments.

The result of handling meetings this way was that everyone arrived on time. The meetings were always informative and productive. We used email extensively for communications within the group but even so, the face-to-face meeting time was extremely useful - rarely did anyone miss the weekly meeting.

_____________________________

Steve

Perfection is an elusive goal.

(in reply to CarnivalBizarre)

Post #: 1874

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 1:05:11 PM

BumMcFluff

Posts: 34
Joined: 2/28/2004
Status: offline

Well, it's been two years since I last checked in here to see when this dreadnought would be completed. I was roundly chastised for my lack of faith and my doubts etc. It's now two years later, and ... we're still waiting. But hey, who am I to complain? I certainly don't want to spark off another 'this is a big job' or 'maybe if you helped' or 'you don't know the difficulties' or whatever.

- Yes, it's a big job, bigger than anticipated, but so was fighting the actual war, and that only took six years (less if you're American, more if you're Japanese or Chinese).

- I don't help car manufacturers, plumbers or electricians either, because they're supposed to know what they're doing.

- No, I don't know the difficulties, but I don't explain the difficulties of my job to my clients, because it's not professional.

Oh well, see you in another two years. I expect I'll be bagged in my absence, but I would prefer the effort went into the game instead.

(in reply to Shannon V. OKeets)

Post #: 1875

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 4:38:39 PM

wargameplayer

Posts: 112
Joined: 4/4/2005
Status: offline

I was on these forums 2-3 years ago and said one person is unrealistic to get this project done.
The developer (Steve)--told me more people would slow him down. He asked me to repost the conversation because he didn't believe it and I did. The guy can't keep his story straight.

I got universally flamed by all the faboys on here by posting back then...

But here are a couple of thoughts.

1) A team is needed to do a project this big.
2) many people waiting for this project literally died waiting. The developer posted misleading reports about how far he was. Sorry, but two years ago, we were seeing posts "almost done". It wasn't almost done.
3) The developer spends way too much time on the forums here. I don't really care about how you are doing i your men's chorus. Sorry, I just don't.
4) The fanboys come on here and flame anyone who says the project is off track. Hey if you guys hadn't been such blind followers maybe the project would have been assigned to someone with the resources to actually get the job done.

Really angry and frustrated with the misleading status reports. This license should be pulled and it should be assigned to a dev team that can deliver on it's promises.

< Message edited by wargameplayer -- 3/28/2010 4:39:46 PM >

(in reply to BumMcFluff)

Post #: 1876

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 6:08:13 PM

brian brian

Posts: 3191
Joined: 11/16/2005
Status: offline

I think what a lot of critics miss is that the market for this game is not a lucrative one. MWiF will not lead to a TV ad campaign and a bitchin' new rock soundtrack the way the new Call of Duty game has. I don't think there actually are a lot of options to just put a team of slick game programming professionals on this project and just pop it out in a few months the way many wish it could be done. Maybe if Steve Ballmer played WiF or some other patron of the arts wanted to spend some of their personal fortune but I can't see any other scenario to make it go any faster from what little I know of the strategy gaming business. The hard-core players of World in Flames are already playing it with their computers (for free though generally after buying everything ADG will sell us) and everyone else who refuses to explore those options while waiting for MatrixWiF is just being stubborn and bitchy. IMO. But here we go round in circles, here we go round and round. If you excuse me, I'm off to blow a precious spare hour tinkering with my new German strategy on Cyberboard. I think I'll get another such hour tonight when the new episode of 'The Pacific' sends the heroes of Alligator Creek in the 1st Marine Division to shore leave in Australia. Yawn.

(in reply to wargameplayer)

Post #: 1877

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 6:22:21 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

I was on these forums 2-3 years ago and said one person is unrealistic to get this project done.
The developer (Steve)--told me more people would slow him down. He asked me to repost the conversation because he didn't believe it and I did. The guy can't keep his story straight.

I got universally flamed by all the faboys on here by posting back then...

But here are a couple of thoughts.

1) A team is needed to do a project this big.
2) many people waiting for this project literally died waiting. The developer posted misleading reports about how far he was. Sorry, but two years ago, we were seeing posts "almost done". It wasn't almost done.
3) The developer spends way too much time on the forums here. I don't really care about how you are doing i your men's chorus. Sorry, I just don't.
4) The fanboys come on here and flame anyone who says the project is off track. Hey if you guys hadn't been such blind followers maybe the project would have been assigned to someone with the resources to actually get the job done.

Really angry and frustrated with the misleading status reports. This license should be pulled and it should be assigned to a dev team that can deliver on it's promises.

Amen Wargameplayer,

you must say it nicer than I did, I was accused of trolling [whats trolling] when I said these things, You sir are in line for a warning!

for speaking the truth. Honestly people I am really trying hard to stay cool.
Bo

(in reply to wargameplayer)

Post #: 1878

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 6:23:50 PM

HansHafen

Posts: 258
Joined: 2/3/2008
Status: offline

The only option is for all the forum user's and potential buyers to fork over about a thousand dollars each for salary for programmers. If we have 300 or so dudes ready, willing and able I think we can get this done! Please respond with a yes and send me the money, and I'll keep track of the cash. Sweet idea dudes! I should have thought of it sooner!

(in reply to brian brian)

Post #: 1879

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 8:13:53 PM

michaelbaldur

Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

really don�t understand the point in does posts ...

do you really thing that the game will be finished faster, if Steve stopped and somebody else have to start all over..

on another note. I don�t see my self as a "fanboy".

I�m one of the people in the world.that have spend most time playing MWIF. I think that I have a realistic view on. the progress on the game.

do you even know the progress of the game. how many hours have you spend playing the game .....

something else: when I say I have spend time PLAYING the game. I mean that the game is playable.

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to HansHafen)

Post #: 1880

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 8:30:03 PM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer
Really angry and frustrated with the misleading status reports. This license should be pulled and it should be assigned to a dev team that can deliver on it's promises.

Once again someone comes up with this absurd idea. There are no other dev teams that want to take this project on for the financial payoff at the end. You people living in fantasy land I hope wake up soon.

Threads like this just stir up peoples disappointment, they do nothing to hasten the completion of this project. I agree you have a right to express your frustration but in the end it is pointless and if anything hindlers rather than helps your goal.

_____________________________

Flipper

(in reply to wargameplayer)

Post #: 1881

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 8:57:08 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

I was on these forums 2-3 years ago and said one person is unrealistic to get this project done.
The developer (Steve)--told me more people would slow him down. He asked me to repost the conversation because he didn't believe it and I did. The guy can't keep his story straight.

I got universally flamed by all the faboys on here by posting back then...

But here are a couple of thoughts.

1) A team is needed to do a project this big.
2) many people waiting for this project literally died waiting. The developer posted misleading reports about how far he was. Sorry, but two years ago, we were seeing posts "almost done". It wasn't almost done.
3) The developer spends way too much time on the forums here. I don't really care about how you are doing i your men's chorus. Sorry, I just don't.
4) The fanboys come on here and flame anyone who says the project is off track. Hey if you guys hadn't been such blind followers maybe the project would have been assigned to someone with the resources to actually get the job done.

Really angry and frustrated with the misleading status reports. This license should be pulled and it should be assigned to a dev team that can deliver on it's promises.

Warspite1

And so the same old refrain continues. I totally understand your frustration in waiting for this game, but how about you give us some answers instead of the benefit of your "thoughts".

Have you done all the various calculations for this enlarged development team? How big does it need to be? What is the trade-off in time and cost? With the new team in place, how much will this game cost Matrix to bring to the market vs the profit to be earned? You know for a fact do you that Matrix can afford such a budget (and that by definition, they are simply choosing not to spend that money - as one poster maintains)? You know the number of likely purchasers of the product? You know the economics do you? If so please, please stop just stating I want more, more, more but instead why not share the info with us.

So you think the license should be pulled and given to a development team that will throw the required money at the project to get it done quickly. Which companies will step in to the breach then? You know for a fact there are many such firms out there? They have a much bigger budget than Matrix do they - and importantly, do not mind making a loss on the game if development costs are too high? Please, name them, better still, tell ADG who they are and they can get the Matrix license revoked and this alternative developer - sorry development team - can get working straight away; should have the game by June - Simples!!

Please try and understand, those who you see as "blind followers" may just be ordinary folk who have a sense of proportion, a sense of balance, a life. They know that just because you want something, you don`t necessarily get it when you want it; sometimes we have to wait for things; that`s where the irritants in real life kick-in - you know profit and loss, shareholders etc.

Oh and by the way, stop with the "Fanboy" nonsense.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to wargameplayer)

Post #: 1882

RE: When? - 3/28/2010 10:06:22 PM

michaelbaldur

Posts: 4774
Joined: 4/6/2007
From: denmark
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: warspite1

quote:

ORIGINAL: wargameplayer

I was on these forums 2-3 years ago and said one person is unrealistic to get this project done.
The developer (Steve)--told me more people would slow him down. He asked me to repost the conversation because he didn't believe it and I did. The guy can't keep his story straight.

I got universally flamed by all the faboys on here by posting back then...

But here are a couple of thoughts.

1) A team is needed to do a project this big.
2) many people waiting for this project literally died waiting. The developer posted misleading reports about how far he was. Sorry, but two years ago, we were seeing posts "almost done". It wasn't almost done.
3) The developer spends way too much time on the forums here. I don't really care about how you are doing i your men's chorus. Sorry, I just don't.
4) The fanboys come on here and flame anyone who says the project is off track. Hey if you guys hadn't been such blind followers maybe the project would have been assigned to someone with the resources to actually get the job done.

Really angry and frustrated with the misleading status reports. This license should be pulled and it should be assigned to a dev team that can deliver on it's promises.

Warspite1

And so the same old refrain continues. I totally understand your frustration in waiting for this game, but how about you give us some answers instead of the benefit of your "thoughts".

Have you done all the various calculations for this enlarged development team? How big does it need to be? What is the trade-off in time and cost? With the new team in place, how much will this game cost Matrix to bring to the market vs the profit to be earned? You know for a fact do you that Matrix can afford such a budget (and that by definition, they are simply choosing not to spend that money - as one poster maintains)? You know the number of likely purchasers of the product? You know the economics do you? If so please, please stop just stating I want more, more, more but instead why not share the info with us.

So you think the license should be pulled and given to a development team that will throw the required money at the project to get it done quickly. Which companies will step in to the breach then? You know for a fact there are many such firms out there? They have a much bigger budget than Matrix do they - and importantly, do not mind making a loss on the game if development costs are too high? Please, name them, better still, tell ADG who they are and they can get the Matrix license revoked and this alternative developer - sorry development team - can get working straight away; should have the game by June - Simples!!

Please try and understand, those who you see as "blind followers" may just be ordinary folk who have a sense of proportion, a sense of balance, a life. They know that just because you want something, you don`t necessarily get it when you want it; sometimes we have to wait for things; that`s where the irritants in real life kick-in - you know profit and loss, shareholders etc.

Oh and by the way, stop with the "Fanboy" nonsense.

want I meant ...

_____________________________

the wif rulebook is my bible

I work hard, not smart.

beta tester and Mwif expert

if you have questions or issues with the game, just contact me on Michaelbaldur1@gmail.com

(in reply to warspite1)

Post #: 1883

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 9:20:12 AM

Joseignacio

Posts: 2449
Joined: 5/8/2009
From: Madrid, Spain
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff

Well, it's been two years since I last checked in here to see when this dreadnought would be completed. I was roundly chastised for my lack of faith and my doubts etc. It's now two years later, and ... we're still waiting. But hey, who am I to complain? I certainly don't want to spark off another 'this is a big job' or 'maybe if you helped' or 'you don't know the difficulties' or whatever.

- Yes, it's a big job, bigger than anticipated, but so was fighting the actual war, and that only took six years (less if you're American, more if you're Japanese or Chinese).

- I don't help car manufacturers, plumbers or electricians either, because they're supposed to know what they're doing.

- No, I don't know the difficulties, but I don't explain the difficulties of my job to my clients, because it's not professional.

Oh well, see you in another two years. I expect I'll be bagged in my absence, but I would prefer the effort went into the game instead.

You will do your part, which is paying the game when and if you want to, the developers will end the game when they can. The rest is pure whinning.

If you cannot wait you can buy something else while you wait or instead of MWIF, which is what you can/would do if the contractor couldn't meet the dates in the real life.

You wouldn't (I hope) call every night the contractor asking him when he can go to your home/office and telling him how many workers he should get.

< Message edited by Joseignacio -- 3/29/2010 12:18:58 PM >

(in reply to BumMcFluff)

Post #: 1884

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 4:18:56 PM

Posts: 4176
Joined: 5/1/2009
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Joseignacio

quote:

ORIGINAL: BumMcFluff

Well, it's been two years since I last checked in here to see when this dreadnought would be completed. I was roundly chastised for my lack of faith and my doubts etc. It's now two years later, and ... we're still waiting. But hey, who am I to complain? I certainly don't want to spark off another 'this is a big job' or 'maybe if you helped' or 'you don't know the difficulties' or whatever.

- Yes, it's a big job, bigger than anticipated, but so was fighting the actual war, and that only took six years (less if you're American, more if you're Japanese or Chinese).

- I don't help car manufacturers, plumbers or electricians either, because they're supposed to know what they're doing.

- No, I don't know the difficulties, but I don't explain the difficulties of my job to my clients, because it's not professional.

Oh well, see you in another two years. I expect I'll be bagged in my absence, but I would prefer the effort went into the game instead.

You will do your part, which is paying the game when and if you want to, the developers will end the game when they can. The rest is pure whinning.

If you cannot wait you can buy something else while you wait or instead of MWIF, which is what you can/would do if the contractor couldn't meet the dates in the real life.

You wouldn't (I hope) call every night the contractor asking him when he can go to your home/office and telling him how many workers he should get.

As always Jose your calmness in the face of apathy in the release of this game amazes me, that is a compliment not a dig, I always respect your opinion because it is never harsh as some posters are in defence of Matrix. Nothing us naysayers can say will change the outcome or the release of this game but the forums are for people with different opinions you may call it whining but I call it maximum frustration. What I would like to know is will this game ever be completed by Matrix? I am serious about that statement, not trying to start trouble or so called trolling, I would like to know from you posters your heartfelt opinions about whether this game will ever come to fruitation, not when but if ever.

Not trolling

Bo

(in reply to Joseignacio)

Post #: 1885

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 6:19:36 PM

wworld7

Posts: 1727
Joined: 2/25/2003
From: The Nutmeg State
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo
As always Jose your calmness in the face of apathy in the release of this game amazes me, that is a compliment not a dig, I always respect your opinion because it is never harsh as some posters are in defence of Matrix. Nothing us naysayers can say will change the outcome or the release of this game but the forums are for people with different opinions you may call it whining but I call it maximum frustration. What I would like to know is will this game ever be completed by Matrix? I am serious about that statement, not trying to start trouble or so called trolling, I would like to know from you posters your heartfelt opinions about whether this game will ever come to fruitation, not when but if ever.

Not trolling

Bo

Bo,

I have tried to explain this in the past. Nothing is ever 100% sure until it is done. There are mulitple reasons this project could never reach completion. This is the same with any software package. I once worked for a company that had management so sure of itself that it thought it could create a business application better and cheaper in-house rather than modify an existing external package. Four and a half years later they waived the flag of surrender and bought an external package to modify. Among the costs besides the external package, 250 million (YES-1/4 of a billion), 3 CIO's replaced and tens of thousands of programming man-hours spent on failed attempt to reinvent the wheel. Sometimes it is not the lack of resources and it wasn't in this case (as these people had an unlimited budget (which hurt other departments)), in our case one thing they couldn't keep up with changing government regs (state & local), and it was a BAD idea starting out with. A non IT person directing the technology direction of a company sometimes works and sometimes it is just bad business...

Nobody, not even Steve, can say this will be finished until it is done. I've seen projects 90% completed die an ugly death because companies often change direction for numerous reasons.

That said, even with all the things that can prevent completion of this project, the plan (as far as I know) is to finish it, and finish it to the best degree possible. Of course this does not ease your frustration, but you will hate MWIF if it is pushed out the door early, and all the people venting their frustration will only have themselves to blame if ADG, Matrix and Steve give into such pressure (which I do no think will happen). But we have had that discussion before so no need to rehash it.

_____________________________

Flipper

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 1886

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 7:12:51 PM

composer99

Posts: 2923
Joined: 6/6/2005
From: Ottawa, Canada
Status: offline

quote:

- Yes, it's a big job, bigger than anticipated, but so was fighting the actual war, and that only took six years (less if you're American, more if you're Japanese or Chinese).

MWiF is being worked on by a single programmer, a handful of other paid types (graphics artist, Matrix project manager, etc.) and a few dozen volunteers (mostly the beta testers).

The real war was an effort of tens of millions of fighting men, and tens of millions more people working in the factories, mills, etc.

Your attempt to compare the two in terms of scale is ridiculous.

quote:

- I don't help car manufacturers, plumbers or electricians either, because they're supposed to know what they're doing.

No one is helping Steve do programming, which is what he is being paid to do.

Have you ever had a plumber in to fix a sink? Did you clean the cleaners, brushes, etc. out from under the sink beforehand? That's helping the plumber. Sure, you could just get him to do it, but it will take up some of his time and you might have to pay for it.

quote:

- No, I don't know the difficulties, but I don't explain the difficulties of my job to my clients, because it's not professional.

Funny, I deal with roofers on construction projects all the time, and I would find it unprofessional if they didn't tell me if they were having difficulties.

Frankly, the fact that Steve is keeping us all very informed on project progress, even when it hits rough patches such as this past winter, strikes me as being more professional, in terms of relations with the client base, than simply not saying anything and leaving us to wonder what is going on.

What's professional or not in your field does not translate universally.

quote:

Oh well, see you in another two years. I expect I'll be bagged in my absence, but I would prefer the effort went into the game instead.

No, you'll be ignored.

_____________________________

~ Composer99

(in reply to wworld7)

Post #: 1887

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 9:17:53 PM

paulderynck

Posts: 8201
Joined: 3/24/2007
From: Canada
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: bo

As always Jose your calmness in the face of apathy in the release of this game amazes me, that is a compliment not a dig, I always respect your opinion because it is never harsh as some posters are in defence of Matrix. Nothing us naysayers can say will change the outcome or the release of this game but the forums are for people with different opinions you may call it whining but I call it maximum frustration. What I would like to know is will this game ever be completed by Matrix? I am serious about that statement, not trying to start trouble or so called trolling, I would like to know from you posters your heartfelt opinions about whether this game will ever come to fruitation, not when but if ever.

Not trolling

Bo

I believe the game will be completed and published.

< Message edited by paulderynck -- 3/29/2010 9:18:21 PM >

_____________________________

Paul

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 1888

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 10:10:36 PM

warspite1

Posts: 41353
Joined: 2/2/2008
From: England
Status: offline

[/quote]
What I would like to know is will this game ever be completed by Matrix? I am serious about that statement, not trying to start trouble or so called trolling, I would like to know from you posters your heartfelt opinions about whether this game will ever come to fruitation, not when but if ever.

Not trolling

Bo

[/quote] Warspite1

I have no idea how long this will take to finish and for this, I look forward to the monthly updates like everyone else. But yes, I truly believe MWIF will be completed - if I did not, there is no way in the world I would waste my time helping on the project.

_____________________________

England expects that every man will do his duty. Horatio Nelson October 1805

(in reply to bo)

Post #: 1889

RE: When? - 3/29/2010 10:17:02 PM

Anendrue