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8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 12:07:53 AM

dereck

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When Singapore falls and the 22nd and 27th Australian Brigades are surrendered what happens to their primary unit - the 8th Australian Division?

Will it be able to be rebuilt or will the fragments left be unable to every recombine into their primary unit again?

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Post #: 1

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 12:11:18 AM

loricas

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you can recombine even if part are destroied

(in reply to dereck)

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RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 4:09:12 AM

morganbj

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Are your sure? I don't think so.

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Post #: 3

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 5:14:30 AM

51st Highland Div

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No its true..i have the 8th Australian Div at Darwin in July '42 despite all units being destroyed at Singapore months before....

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RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 5:19:22 AM

DivePac88

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The 3x �Bird� battalions made up the third brigade of the 8th division I think?

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Post #: 5

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 7:25:26 AM

Montbrun

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quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

The 3x �Bird� battalions made up the third brigade of the 8th division I think?

Yup - the 8th can be reconstituted from those 3 battalions.

(in reply to DivePac88)

Post #: 6

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 11:07:54 AM

FOW

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Yes you can. There's another thread around this last week or so which got onto this subject and two of the Land Dev Team confirmed it. However.....

You have limited replacement for Oz so if you completely rebuild 8th Div it will :

1. use up all your inf squad replacements
2. take quite a long time
3. severely restrict your ability to replace combat losses in other units as you have used up the pools.

It's your descision !!!!!

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 7

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 12:47:11 PM

Smeulders

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quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

Yes you can. There's another thread around this last week or so which got onto this subject and two of the Land Dev Team confirmed it. However.....

You have limited replacement for Oz so if you completely rebuild 8th Div it will :

1. use up all your inf squad replacements
2. take quite a long time
3. severely restrict your ability to replace combat losses in other units as you have used up the pools.

It's your descision !!!!!

The best replacement rate you get for the Australians is during 42', with 55 squads per month, rebuilding the 2 brigades you lost in Malaya will require 216 squads, so about 4 months in which you have no infantry squads to reinforce any other formation. Seems better to just fill out the other divisions left in Oz itself. That's not taking into account the 25 pounders and 2 pdr AT guns, which you need for just about all infantry formations from the UK/New Zealand/India/Australia/Canada

(in reply to FOW)

Post #: 8

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 2:00:34 PM

Capt Henry_MatrixForum

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Playing against the AI in the Ironman Scenario, I was able to get both Australian Brigades out of Singapore . At that point I thought I'd try a Sir Robin at Singapore and was able to extract both Indian Divisions, III Corps, the armored unit, and several base forces as well. I did a lot of evac between Singapore and Palembang, then sent the units overland to Oosthaven for rembarkation. As fast as PPs accumulated, I would move another unit out. The last transports out of Oosthaven did spent time dodging around Japanese carrier forces southwest of Java, but I think all the transports I lost (500 troop capacity types) were lot between Singapore and Palembang.

I agree this would pretty much never work against a human opponent.

(in reply to Smeulders)

Post #: 9

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/19/2009 4:11:04 PM

medicff

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From: WPB, Florida
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quote:

ORIGINAL: FOW

Yes you can. There's another thread around this last week or so which got onto this subject and two of the Land Dev Team confirmed it. However.....

You have limited replacement for Oz so if you completely rebuild 8th Div it will :

1. use up all your inf squad replacements
2. take quite a long time
3. severely restrict your ability to replace combat losses in other units as you have used up the pools.

It's your descision !!!!!

Good points about rebuilding units.

The only division size units that can be rebuilt from losing entire brigades/regiments are the ones that START a scenario already in detached form. Once you recombine and split again, if you lose brigade it is gone forever. But the point is made from Indian/British/Australian/CW forces is that you have extremely limited replacements to rebuild entire units.

(in reply to FOW)

Post #: 10

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/20/2009 5:28:54 AM

Dobey455

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In regards to the 55 replacement squads, don't forget that that is AIF infantry (if I'm not mistaken) and all the militia divisions in Aus use CMF Infantry squads. If the 3 othe AIF divisions (6th, 7th and 9th) have not been heavily engaged then there is no point "saving" those 55 squads per month as no other Australian unit can use them.

Of course the AIF divisions are some of the better quality allied divisions, so I can't imagine at least one of them won't be in the front and needing re-inforcement.

< Message edited by Dobey -- 9/20/2009 5:33:50 AM >

(in reply to Smeulders)

Post #: 11

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/20/2009 10:11:23 AM

Rainer79

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Don't forget all these CMF Militia squads will upgrade to the AIF type. That will make an immediate rebuild of the 8th Division far less attractive.

(in reply to Dobey455)

Post #: 12

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/21/2009 3:12:46 PM

Dobey455

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Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think you will EVER be able to combine the 8th Australian division.

To re-build a unit all the sub units need to have the same types of equiptment and squads right?
Well for some reason the "bird" battalions have Militia squads (CMF) while the rest of the division has AIF squads, so if I understand the re-building rules correctly this unit can nevr be reformed. Well possibly if the militia converts to the same type of AIF squad late in the war.

Gull, Lark and Sparrow force are simply the 3rd brigade of the 8th Div. broken down into battalion battlegroups and so they should be AIF troops like the rest of the division.

(in reply to dereck)

Post #: 13

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/21/2009 3:46:54 PM

morganbj

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Dobey

Actually, now that I think about it, I don't think you will EVER be able to combine the 8th Australian division.

To re-build a unit all the sub units need to have the same types of equiptment and squads right?
Well for some reason the "bird" battalions have Militia squads (CMF) while the rest of the division has AIF squads, so if I understand the re-building rules correctly this unit can nevr be reformed. Well possibly if the militia converts to the same type of AIF squad late in the war.

Gull, Lark and Sparrow force are simply the 3rd brigade of the 8th Div. broken down into battalion battlegroups and so they should be AIF troops like the rest of the division.

I didn't think about that either. That might explain why I couldn't get the 8th to combine. I thought it was because one of the "birds" was left behind near Rabaul and "disappeared" when it ran out supplies. Sometimes it takes the game several turns before it realizes that a unit is gone, at least from what I think I see. So, I just gave up on reuniting it and ended up moving the other "birds" to different destinations. I assumed that the "destroyed" indication on the OOB button meant that it couldn't be rebuilt if a sub-unit was destroyed. But, maybe it was the fact that the equipment doesn't line up correctly.

But, in retrospect, recombining it may not be a good idea anyway as some of you have said.

(in reply to Dobey455)

Post #: 14

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/21/2009 5:13:00 PM

Andy Mac

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IMO I would only rebuild 8th Div as anything but rear are garriosn if

1. I had managed to get at least 150 Squads between the Bdes and Bns to Australia
2. I didnt intend to overstrain the Australian, NZ and British Army by an early atack as the other devices are important.

So I was playing possum in 42 and sitting back in Assam and not trying Akyab, if I was not trying to go overland to Buna and the Japanese were leaving PM alone then I 'may' rebuild the Div if I had a big enough cadre escape to reasseble.

If I get out less that 100 squads my most likely reaction is to send all the fragments to Sydney where they can be disbanded to the pool at no VP cost thus giving me a nice one off boost to help out other formations - I like full strength Divs for attacking with plenty of replacements - 3 full Divs with 100 replacement squads better than 4 Divs at 90% with no replacements IMO

(in reply to morganbj)

Post #: 15

RE: 8th Australian Division - 9/21/2009 5:14:08 PM

Walloc

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Grognerd

I looked at trying to get out the 22nd ad 27th brigades from Singapore against the AI.
Can't be done (safely) not enough PP's and too risky when enough PP's are available.
Not terrible realistic either (but who cares, no house rules against the AI)
I figured if it were possible against the AI, playing a human might be, but it would be harder. But alas it takes about 12 or so days to get the required 800 something PP's to change commands.
I prefer to use replacements for the other 4 or 5 militia divisions in Austrailia.

U dont need 800 PP. Just change their HQ to ABDA or Burma command. Then they only cost 90 or so each.
So with the right moves u could have them changed to ABDA/Burma on turn 1 if u so wish. Not that its needed cuz of the fact that they arent rdy to sail on turn 1. Realisticly by turn 4-5 u could have them sailing and u can certainly find 180 PP by then. If that is what u want.

Kind regards,

Rasmus

< Message edited by Walloc -- 9/21/2009 5:17:49 PM >

Post #: 16

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/21/2010 6:02:34 PM

cfulbright

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I note some people say you can never combine the 8th Aus Div. I've done it. I did as someone else said, changed the Bats from SW Pacific to ABDA command.

Post #: 17

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/21/2010 6:50:27 PM

Buck Beach

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

IMO I would only rebuild 8th Div as anything but rear are garriosn if

1. I had managed to get at least 150 Squads between the Bdes and Bns to Australia
2. I didnt intend to overstrain the Australian, NZ and British Army by an early atack as the other devices are important.

So I was playing possum in 42 and sitting back in Assam and not trying Akyab, if I was not trying to go overland to Buna and the Japanese were leaving PM alone then I 'may' rebuild the Div if I had a big enough cadre escape to reasseble.

If I get out less that 100 squads my most likely reaction is to send all the fragments to Sydney where they can be disbanded to the pool at no VP cost thus giving me a nice one off boost to help out other formations - I like full strength Divs for attacking with plenty of replacements - 3 full Divs with 100 replacement squads better than 4 Divs at 90% with no replacements IMO

These are actually some pretty cool points. Already late for my current game but I will save the post for future reference.

Thanks

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 18

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/21/2010 7:21:39 PM

Andy Mac

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Remember CMF Milita Squads upgrade to CMF Inf Squads which upgrade to AIF 42
AIF upgrade to AIF 42

You should really wait until you have upgraded all squads to AIF 42 as thats an important upgrade before you start spending AIF 42 squads on rebuilding.

e.g. wait until you have 108 AIF 42 Squads (about 2 months) and then let them percolate through all your units performing this vital upgrade

You do not want to be fighting anywhere with CMF or CMF Militia Squads

(in reply to Buck Beach)

Post #: 19

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/21/2010 10:50:53 PM

davbaker

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Interesting thread which leads me to an issue which has always puzzled me a little - how do you actually upgrade your squads?

I understand the concept, how TOE works etc. just not how you actually plan and go about this.
I'm not even sure if I've ever noticed it happening, too many other things to worry about most of the time!

Is there a preferred way of doing this or does it just happen?

16.4.1 Upgrades occur automatically and cannot be stopped from happening as long as sufficient new items are in the pool and the unit has access to sufficient supplies.

This indicates to me that you have no direct control over the upgrade process and you cannot target a specific unit for a priority upgrade.

Does the level of supply at the base make any difference or does it just have to have 'some'?

Is there any notification when a TOE upgrade takes place?

Cheers!

Dave

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 20

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/21/2010 11:07:40 PM

witpqs

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As far as devices (like squads) upgrading, it can only occur if you have the LCU set to Replacements=On. Thereby you can only control it insofar as you can shut Off Replacements to all other LCU's and leave them On for the LCU you want to upgrade first, etc. Sub-optimal, IMO.

As far as TOE upgrades, I've been unable to find what are the required conditions (I've searched a bunch).

(in reply to davbaker)

Post #: 21

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 12:11:09 AM

Andy Mac

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Leave them in rest mode near a command HQ and the TOE will upgrade if one is due

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RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 12:21:40 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Andy Mac

Leave them in rest mode near a command HQ and the TOE will upgrade if one is due

That might be the missing link for me. Thanks.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 23

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 2:05:12 AM

davbaker

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From: Melbourne, Australia
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Thanks for all the info, think i'm starting to understand, maybe.

The TOE Specifies how many of each device are needed to make up a unit.

Therefore, does the TOE need to upgrade before the devices do?

The 6th Division for example, starts with pre-AIF42 (Sorry not near PC) Squads as parts of its TOE.

Do you need to move the Division within range of a command HQ after it's TOE upgrade date so that it upgrades its TOE to now have the AIF42 devices which you can then fill out, or am I completely off track?

Thanks.

Dave

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 24

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 2:18:35 AM

Andy Mac

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The TOE and Squad upgrades are Indpt of each other.

If unit x has 10 2 Pounder AT guns and the pool is 10 6 pounder AT guns then when the criteria are met (supply etc) then the DEVICE will upgrade returning 10 2 pounders tot he pool.

OK thats a device upgrade.

A TOE upgrade says unit X has a TOE of

10 2 Pounders and 10 25 pounders

after date Y if in rest mode and near an HQ the TOE changes to 2 x 6 Pounder and 24 x 25 pounder.

Lets say you are in rest mode and meet all the conditions and your TOE changes what happens ??

Ok

Step 1 the TOE changes, Step 2 the computer goes down the list of actual devices the unit had and tries to fit them into its new TOE and it will look backwards in a Device upgrade chain.

So in this case

the AI would say I want max 2 x 6 pounders - the unit didnt have any of those but oh loook it had 10 x 2 pounders - the 2 pounder upgrades to the 6 pounder so I can use those so I will take 2 of the 2 pounders and put them in that slot and return the other 8 to the pool.

OK I want 24 x 25 pounders but the unit only had 10 so I will use all ten of those.

New strength of unit 2 x 2 pounders and 10 x 25 pounders, new TOE of unit 2 x 6 pounders and 24 x 25 pounders.

When the pool next has 2 x 6 pounders in it and the other conditions are met the device will upgrade - but this is a DEVICE upgrade not a TOE upgrade - it would have doen that whatever the TOE said because the device upgrade is dependent only on the device upgrade path not the TOE.

(in reply to davbaker)

Post #: 25

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 2:23:09 AM

Andy Mac

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Now as a complication if the new TOE of a unit doesnt use devices that were in the old TOE.

e.g. Australian Armoured Regts start out with a weird barely Sqn sized TOE including Bren Sections

The TOE upgrade removes those Bren sections and gives them proper Armoured Sqns.

In those case the new Armoured Regt TOE has an entry of 0 x Bren Sections that is there to tell the computer when the TOE of those units changes send any Bren Sections back to the pool.

If I have not put in Bren Section 0 into the new TOE the AI would have used those sections to overstrength the unit.

If the computer does not know what to do with a device it leaves it with the unit but sticks it at the bottom as a non TOE overstrength addition.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 26

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 2:33:24 AM

Andy Mac

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So lets take 8th Australian Div's infantry

22nd Aus Bde starts with AIF Sections that upgrade to AIF 42 Sections
27th Aus Bde starts with AIF Sections that upgrade to AIF 42 Sections
Bird Bns all start with CMF Infantry Sections that upgrade to AIF 42 Sections.

Squad type devices are different from ordinary devices because they are mostly manpower and changes int hem mostly reflect changes in small arms or support weapons.

Therefore when a Squad device upgrades the same number of devices is returned to the pool UPGRADED - so when the CMF Infantry Sections upgrade to AIF 42 Sections they return to the pool as AIF 42 Sections - its how we got round the allied squads never having enough to replace combat losses AND upgrades without making squad pools so large as to be effectivelly meaningless.

IF you recombine units with different types of device that should all technically be in the same slot - e.g. AIF and CMF Infantry Sections the computer picks the largest to take the device slot and treats the rest as over strength non TOE additions.

So lets tyake the example above

Assume you manage a full sir Robin each AIF Bde has 108 AIF Sections and the Birds havwe 108 CMF Sections and you press the combine button

What happens is you get 8th Aus Div with 216 AIF Sections int he top inf slot and 108 CMF sections as non TOE additions at the bottom.

Lets say the unti sits tight for 6 months and squads all upgrade you end up with 216 AIF 42 Sections on top and 108 AIF 42 Sections on bottom.

Turn replacements on and it will suck up repalcements as normal until de facto the Div is overstrength by a Bde worth of Infantry.

Not good because you are short of replacements.

Now fortunately the 8th Australian Div gets a TOE upgrade to lighten it in September 42 at that point even if you have overstrengthed the Div to 432 Squads via this mean (324 TOE plus the extra 108) the TOE upgrade says all I need is 324 AIF 42 Sections so when that upgrade happens to the TOE the extra will be cleared out and the units strength normalised again.

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 27

RE: 8th Australian Division - 3/22/2010 2:40:31 AM

davbaker

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Thanks for that Andy, makes much more sense now.

One more (last) question I hope.

I've seen the Unit Information Screen and the toggle to display the TOE upgrade.

Where do I find the Device Upgrade Path or do you figure that out from looking at future TOE's maybe?

Dave

(in reply to Andy Mac)

Post #: 28