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Desert Warfare - 7/15/2002 5:36:25 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		I've just started a pbem game as German in '41 vs Brit. in the desert. My opponent likes his tanks and is no fool, so I expect to face at least a squadron of Matildas... My solution is to buy a bunch of 88AT units. Here's the specific question: do I set the Op fire range to zero for my AT guns as one would in a European setting, or do I let them op-fire? My concern is that if they aren't set to op fire, because of their size and the lack of cover in the open desert they will be spotted on my opponent's turn and neutralized without replying. My general concern is if anyone can offer me any suggestions on desert warfare vs. the Matilda. I've not played many desert games and I expect my mixed force of PZIII's and T38e's to have much difficulty with the Matilda in the hands of a skilled opponent.
-Thanks in advance :)

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- 7/15/2002 5:50:23 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		Oops! make that Pz38(t)e not T38's

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Couple of suggestions - 7/15/2002 6:17:01 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

Posts: 1213
Joined: 2/1/2002
From: MA, US
Status: offline 		Set up a layered defense. Put a few 88 forward. Not to forward though. Set thier range to like 5. Make sure you put them on slopes or on rough spots. The higher the better. Then put a few more back about 5 hexes again look for slopes good views of fire and rough hexes with heigth set their range to 12. Then a few more back again 5 hexes setting there range to 17, and so on and so on. What this does is makes your opponent believe you are very far back. Then he will rush at you and your closer ATG's will be able to pick them off. Also there should be plenty of hills and ridges. Set your 88's up on the ridges and place your prime movers behind the ridge. Then if your 88 is running the chance to being over run. You pop up over the ridge and move him out. A trick I use is I will place a recon unit right in front of my 88 and have them pop smoke when the air is getting to thick with bullets for my 88. This way my prime mover does not get poped when I go to retrieve my 88.

Another thing to try is to use Sig33's, they will pop a Matilda. Hide them behind a ridge pop them up one move fire. Pop up the next, fire. Alternate back and forth so that the enemy tanks do not get continuous fire bonuses on you. Make sure you save movement to move them back down behind the ridge. In front of that ridge put a group of engineers laying down mines with thier ranges set at 1. Engineers will destory Matilda's if they can get close enough to assualt. Don't forget to use your artillary to lay down smoke.

Remember that when you are fighting a supperior tank force you need to be patient. Hope this helped have fun.

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- 7/15/2002 6:19:45 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Well, I've been doing the North Africa front in my WWII campaign so far as Germany, and I've been trying to get my 88's on the high hills in long vision scenarios, but if he's smart he'll artillery those hills.

I try and get as many shots out of my 88's (I always take them as support because even the computer takes them out pretty quickly) So I set the range to be the max vision, andI've done pretty well with them so far.


There is Forest-Like terrain in the desert however, the Sand-Dunes type terrain (The one with lots of little sand ruffles) works very much like a forest, you could use it that way, but I prefer to keep it with a wide field of fire.


It all depends on how you want to use them, also, I've never had a problem taking on the Brit's tanks, even though a squad of Matilda's did roll up onto my positions one fight. This may or may not be because I have two full companies of veteran Panzer III drivers (PzKmpfK I & II, I being the smaller one with more experienced tank crews, II having an extra platoon's worth of tanks.)

All in all I believe I have about 30 or more Panzer III's, though I'm not sure of that number, I'll count next time I'm in game :)

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- 7/15/2002 6:44:11 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		Great suggestions! this is a meeting engagement, but I'm going to try to layer my 88 defence to cover my panzers line of retreat and then fall back through it (just like Rommel did). I think I'll purchase reinforcements right off the bat... maybe some Sig33's. I think I'll ignore the VH's and just try to draw my opponent into a trap he he he... He kicked my A** last game so I'm out for blood... wish me luck ;)

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Post #: 5
- 7/15/2002 7:00:35 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		Willy I sure hope for your sake your opponent doesn't read this forum or your 88's will be scrap metal fast:D :D :D :D :cool:

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Post #: 6
- 7/15/2002 7:17:08 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		Doh! ... If you are reading this (you know who you are) It's all part of my cunning and devious campaign of disinformation and deceit ;) I'm actually pretty certain you're not reading this. Or are you?

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Post #: 7
- 7/15/2002 7:40:40 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Well, even if he is, it's not too much help, just your general plan..and you can chalk it all up to those pesky british spies...they must have slept with one of your Majors and got the information from him!

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Post #: 8
- 7/15/2002 7:57:52 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		All of my Officers conduct a thorough debreifing :) and interrogation of any ladies they fraternise with ... willy does not tolerate any slack in his unit!

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Post #: 9
- 7/15/2002 8:21:42 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Heh. Maybe it was a Tanker Sarge. :)


Speaking of which, I've yet to find any Majors or anything like that, can a unit leader get a promotion? Sarge to Captain, things like that, or do they just go Green, Veteran, Elite, and that's it?

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- 7/15/2002 7:10:13 PM   
Warrior


Posts: 1808
Joined: 11/2/2000
From: West Palm Beach, FL USA
Status: offline 		When meeting Matlida's in the desert, I always found it safest to run. :D

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Post #: 11
- 7/15/2002 7:13:26 PM   
Cromort

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 5/2/2001
From: Brussels
Status: offline 		yep they do, at least in ww2 campaign (dunno how or when but they do sometimes)

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Post #: 12
- 7/16/2002 1:06:28 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Oh Good, I have this hope that my First Panzer Company's Captain will get promoted by the ened of the campaign. :)

I played a game, just to test some things out...apparently the AI can't handle Matildas, or the desert. I only had five PzIII's and they took the Matildas down relatively easy.

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Post #: 13
- 7/16/2002 1:40:01 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Is it just me, or does it seem like those 2 pounders the Matildas use as a main gun aren't that terrifying? I'm battling about 12 of them right now and although I can't hope to kill them without being up-close and personal, I find that they aren't doing much more than being a nuisance. They have weak firepower and are very slow (speed 14) and get even slower (speed 9) if you just take a few shots of them.

I use Stugs to draw their op-fire and then pop out with my Pz-IIIs and hope the few rounds of APCR I have will do the trick. You definitely have to use the terrain very carefully to get a kill.

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Post #: 14
- 7/16/2002 1:49:31 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		Get behind the Tillies and shoot'em in the six. BEST tried and true method.:D :mad: :cool:

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Post #: 15
- 7/16/2002 4:46:13 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		I'd have to look at the armour values, but what kind of tanks are you using rb?

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Post #: 16
- 7/16/2002 5:12:16 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		G_X, although I appreciate the offer, you don't have to look up the armour values for me, I can do that. I was just wondering about the 2 pounder's relative effectiveness. To my mind it is equivalent to a 37mm Gun. They just don't seem as deadly to me and I am not affraid of them, whereas the German 50mm gun causes me concern when I face them.

I guess the real question is: "What are the equivalents of the 37mm, 50mm, 75mm and 88mm Guns when you are talking Allied Guns measured in Pounds?" Inches are easy enough to convert to mm, but converting weights to diameters is beyond my Gunnery skill.

If you tell me what mm Gun is pointed at me, I can almost immediately determine if my unit is in danger, but when I face an "x" pounder, I am at a complete loss.:confused: :confused:

Thanks if you know.
Bob

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Post #: 17
- 7/16/2002 5:24:54 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Ahh...allright, Umm, does it help that I am afraid of a 17 pounder? Heh.

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Post #: 18
- 7/16/2002 8:52:12 AM   
chief


Posts: 1660
Joined: 9/28/2000
From: Haines City FL, USA
Status: offline 		rb: do a search somebody within the last 60 days did a thread on just that...weights and sizes...I'm sorry I don't remember who or its title. Maybe you can find it, I'm sorry I ddnt print it out
:( :confused: :cool:

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"God Bless America and All the Young men and women who give their all to protect Her"....chief

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Post #: 19
- 7/16/2002 11:21:36 AM   
stevemk1a


Posts: 855
Joined: 3/30/2002
From: Penticton B.C.
Status: offline 		I just did a practise game vs AI against lots of Matildas. It seems to me the 50mm gun on the PzIIIh will kill a 'tilda from flank or rear at close (10 hex or less) range... even further if you use one of the precious 2 APCR rounds on board. Matildas seem to be less accurate than the German tanks, and the 2lb gun needs a close range non frontal shot to be effective. Matildas have no HE for their gun but a Squadron would have the 76mm CS variant of the tank for smoke and AT gun supression. It seems that the dust trails left by vehicles in the desert are a major tactical consideration! you can see them for miles ... I guess they could also be used to create cover though :D

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Post #: 20
- 7/16/2002 11:44:12 AM   
G_X

 

Posts: 518
Joined: 7/7/2002
From: Atlanta, Georgia
Status: offline 		Indeed, the dust trails are very useful in finding out where enemy armour is, as long as it's dry (Not raining) But you can use this against your enemy too.


Just get some trucks and drive them around where your enemy can't see anything except the smoke from them, and he'll think you have lots of tanks, and it'll conceal the positions of your real ones.

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Post #: 21
- 7/16/2002 11:50:42 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		i know a 6lber is a 57mm and thats it ill try to find a post or website

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Post #: 22
british armour early war - 7/16/2002 3:20:50 PM   
Curieus

 

Posts: 73
Joined: 7/3/2002
From: NL
Status: offline 		Ironically the tank with the highest armour penetration is an CS tank. The Cruiser mkIIICS has a 3.7 inch howitzer. This howitzer has a penetration value up to 90 mm. This makes the tank also excel in separating infantry from tanks. I have had this tank take out PzKfw III's from relatively long range (20) with frontal shots. Of course the armour of the tank is paper thin, so keep it out of direct sight...

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I found it! - 7/17/2002 12:03:58 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		I did a search and found my answer. With "props" to Belisarius for the research:

On June 3rd, Belisarius said:
"Here's a rough translation:

2 pdr_____=40mm

6 pdr_____=57mm

17 pdr____=76mm

18 pdr____=84mm

25 pdr____=88mm

60 pdr____=127mm

Now, the guns characteristics are not only the bore (consider the 88's and 75mm PaKs being better than larger guns), but it gives an idea. 2, 6, 17 and 25 pds are most useful for comparing AT guns.

Edited: Since you ask about a 17pdr being better than a 75mm, I'd like to clarify - the most important thing is the calibre. This states how long the barrel is in bores.

Example: A 75mm/L24 gun has a barrel length 75x24=1800=1.8m. A 75mm/L48 consequently has a barrel of 75x48=3600=3.6m. This means that more of the energy of the propellant gases can be converted to propel the shell (inside the barrel)----> higher V0, or muzzle velocity. The shell will have more energy and thus travel farther, straighter and hitting harder, causing more damage.

And again, this is invalid for shaped charges (i.e. bazookas and such), as that energy will be focused on the target regardless how fast the grenade travels. "

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Post #: 24
- 7/17/2002 12:46:11 AM   
Hades

 

Posts: 565
Joined: 12/3/2001
From: Texas
Status: offline 		well you beat me. but thanks very useful.

_____________________________

"History admires the wise, but it elevates the brave."
-Edmund Morris


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Post #: 25
- 7/17/2002 6:48:27 AM   
rbrunsman


Posts: 1837
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Phoenix, AZ
Status: offline 		Hades, at least you knew your 6 pounder from a hole in the ground. (That's funny to me for some reason. It's a play on your name, get it?:D )

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Post #: 26
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