Is CAP useles or did I miss something?

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Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 2:33:38 AM

Misconduct

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Someone explain this to me, I have 72 P40e's on Moresby with the lowest pilot experience set at 74 while highest is 81. 50% CAP and 30% Rest, and range set for 0. A flight of 16 Betties fly unescorted to Moresby and only 22 scramble, I manage to shoot down 1 then they attack my 2 cruisers and sink both, with 2 loses to the cruisers. Oh Moresby has an Airfield rating of 5 and 65,000 supplies so there is no question of leadership, damaged aircraft what so ever, all 72 were ready to fly.

Seriously whats the point of CAP since its garbage if you are hoping to defend something?

Post #: 1

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 2:47:53 AM

Big B

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Before screaming murder, and having seen many such results myself, I have one question for you -
What was the weather over the target hex that day? Was it heavy cloud or rain?

It seems warships under heavy cloud will still get attacked, but the CAP often fails to make contact with the raiders....they sneak in and out under heavy weather.

To me, that seems to fly in the face of the advantages of hiding under a storm, but it does seem to work to the advantage of the attacker in air combat in the game.

Other than that - I can't imagine why CAP failed to be a better deterrent.???

Did 22 P-40's actually engage the incoming raid?

(in reply to Misconduct)

Post #: 2

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 4:03:24 AM

witpqs

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I'm wondering about the 50% CAP + 30% Rest setting. If I understand correctly, 30% Rest means 30% of the squadron's planes will not fly that day. 50% CAP means the squadron will try to keep 50% of its planes in the air at all times. Seems like that could quickly fatigue those 70% who are allowed to fly that day (i.e. not ordered to Rest).

Maybe that messed up the CAP too?

(in reply to Big B)

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 5:15:05 AM

YukonSD

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I could be wrong here...

With 30% of the P-40's on rest, that would leave about 50 planes available for duty (30% of 72 is 22, 72-22=50). Now, 50% of that reduced number of planes is 25; roughtly the number that sortied for you. The 3 missing planes could have missed various checks, either pilot or plane, and thus not have sortied.

This assumes that 30% rest is applied before 50% CAP.

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 4

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 6:11:31 AM

Misconduct

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I mean if the manual states "CAP is full of crap" then I can understand, however a P40e should have no problem taking on a japanese bomber thats unescorted. I can understand one or two being driving off by defensive firepower, but seriously 1 kill of 22 p40s?

So how did the betties magically find the cruisers in the rain then? Since the CAP can't seem to find the attackers.

(in reply to YukonSD)

Post #: 5

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 6:14:57 AM

TheElf

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

I mean if the manual states "CAP is full of crap" then I can understand, however a P40e should have no problem taking on a japanese bomber thats unescorted. I can understand one or two being driving off by defensive firepower, but seriously 1 kill of 22 p40s?

So how did the betties magically find the cruisers in the rain then? Since the CAP can't seem to find the attackers.

did you have radar? What did the combat report say? When was the raid detected? ie what range? What altitude was the raid coming in at? What alt was the CAP set to? What was the WEATHER?

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Post #: 6

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 7:23:45 AM

witpqs

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quote:

ORIGINAL: YukonSD

This assumes that 30% rest is applied before 50% CAP.

I think all the percentage settings for air missions are applied against the full 100% total. A developer could say for certain.

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Post #: 7

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 8:55:50 AM

Alfred

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Misconduct,

1. You should reread s.7.4.1 of the manual before you make such emphatic statements in post #1 that CAP is garbage.

2. Then having absorbed what is contained in s.7.4.1, consider how your own command decisions impact upon the performance of your forces.

3. Give us the full picture of what happened if you seriously expect an explanation. In addition to the essential points made by TheElf in post #6, you fail to say whether your available CAP had been whittled down by earlier enemy sweeps, escorted bomber raids.

Frankly, I find too many people make outrageous criticisms of the game model without doing their own homework, which homework if done before jumping to conclusions and posting, would either explain why things happen or at least would enable issues to be presented in a meaningful manner.

Alfred

(in reply to witpqs)

Post #: 8

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 10:42:31 AM

Mark Weston

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Just another forum post that quotes one combat result and then extrapolates a general conclusion about the game.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 11:08:57 AM

Canoerebel

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Some of you are giving Misconduct too hard a time. Perhaps there's a history with him or his posts that warrants reacting to him with such fervor, but I'm not aware of any such.

He uses the word "garbage" in the initial post. That can be construed as an insulting term, but it's more likely an off-the-cuff and non-hostile expression of his irration at something that seems out of whack. He'd probably seen similar things before. I know other players have noted results like this.

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Post #: 10

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 11:14:29 AM

Puhis

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Seriously whats the point of CAP since its garbage if you are hoping to defend something?

I could show exactly opposite results, where only 5 or 6 P-40s shoot down 15-20 unescorted bettys over Port Moresby. That is as "garbage" result as your example.

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Post #: 11

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 1:13:35 PM

witp1951

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Misconduct,

A combat report and screen prints of your CAP units would be helpful in explaining your results. I have found CAP working as I would expect. My experience has been that altitude differentials between the strike and CAP seem to make a big impact. My opponent has been successful against me by slipping strikes well under my CAP

. Lessons learned.

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Post #: 12

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 1:15:48 PM

rominet

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Someone explain this to me, I have 72 P40e's on Moresby with the lowest pilot experience set at 74 while highest is 81. 50% CAP and 30% Rest, and range set for 0. A flight of 16 Betties fly unescorted to Moresby and only 22 scramble, I manage to shoot down 1 then they attack my 2 cruisers and sink both, with 2 loses to the cruisers. Oh Moresby has an Airfield rating of 5 and 65,000 supplies so there is no question of leadership, damaged aircraft what so ever, all 72 were ready to fly.

Seriously whats the point of CAP since its garbage if you are hoping to defend something?

On which scenario?

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Post #: 13

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 1:17:52 PM

Grfin Zeppelin

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Indeed, a cap set to high can cause problems too. I had 5 waves of those Banshees (unescorted) with their crap pilots going throught my cap of crack Zero pilots. They only managed to catch the 5th wave :( God I love this game :)

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Post #: 14

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 2:26:18 PM

usersatch

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I think CAP works fine. I'm fighting on Shortlands right now and I have two layers of CAP set up. First layer at 17,000ft with carrier air for each TF and another layer at 5,000ft with LBA over Shortlands. The japanese have thrown the kitchen sink at me from Moresby, Lae, Buna, and Rabaul over the course of almost two weeks and not a single aircraft has scored a hit on 100+ ships. I'm not shooting down much during each attack, but hey, it adds up.

I'm finding that while pilot experience and sheer numbers are important, the mechanics of CAP are even more important (altitude, distance, etc.)

Now that I've boasted about it, I am expecting to lose half my APs tomorrow!

(in reply to Grfin Zeppelin)

Post #: 15

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 2:50:11 PM

Misconduct

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Canoerebel

Some of you�are giving Misconduct too hard a time.� Perhaps there's a history with him or his posts that warrants�reacting to him with such fervor, but�I'm not aware of any such.�

He uses the word "garbage" in the initial post.� That can be construed as an insulting term, but it's�more likely�an off-the-cuff and non-hostile expression of his�irration at something that seems out of�whack.��He'd probably seen similar things before.��I�know other players have�noted results like this.�

I think people have taken the post differently then it was intended, I was blowing off steam on my post and it was not to be taken as an insult towards the players or the game. I have always moderated myself quite well on the forums and far back as WITP I can remember only one heated conversation where I got emotional.

If anyone took the post as an insult then I'm sorry, I was blowing off steam from having 5 bad dice rolls due to rather uneventful circumstances.

Basically the P40s were flying cap at 16,000ft however radar only picked the betties at 34km at 4000ft.
So basically to answer my own question the CAP was flying to high.

I am curious I guess I need to split my squadron into 3 and fly 3 different CAPS Low/med/high?

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 4/1/2010 2:52:30 PM >

(in reply to Canoerebel)

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 3:59:39 PM

John Lansford

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I've got three squadrons of fighters on Makin, all three set to 60% CAP (10% rest). That's 24 P-38's, 24 F4F's, and 25 P-40's. The AI sends Bettys and Sallys from the islands to my north every day to attack the shipping there, sometimes with escorts, sometimes without. Most of the time my fighters chase them away or shoot all the bombers down, but every once in a while only a small handful of fighters (fewer than 6) show up. Then it gets interesting.

However, the vast majority of the time my fighters do their job and protect the ships and men at the base. Losses among Bettys attacking Darwin got so heavy the AI withdrew the squadrons; I'm noticing more and more Betty attacks in China (retraining rookie pilots?) and very few in the SW/Central Pacific regions now.

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Post #: 17

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 4:06:57 PM

Misconduct

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I moved a squadron of P39's to Moresby to cap at 6k figuring the Betties that come in at 4k, 50% cap and 20% rest, now just need to wait and see what happens on the next raid, I think I need to move my P40 cap higher to 18k because Sally's are coming in at 17k to bomb the port.

Hopefully in the next day or so I can re-read everything about CAP and see if I missed something, far as I know the only problem would be Moresby only has the Australian I Corps there, I know the Fighter Hq's give a bonus, not sure if Australian I corps matters much in the situation?

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Post #: 18

RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 4:21:38 PM

witpqs

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It's interesting to see the interplay of the CAP and Rest settings. I've just set CAP % accordingly and watched fatigue from turn to turn. The only time I've seen fatigue jump is when CAP % is high or a squadron escorts a raid (mostly say engaging in combat and/or at long range).

So far I've only used Rest for things that are otherwise 100%, like supply or troop transport missions. There it is definitely helpful. Early in AE the Rest percentage only applied to combat missions. Fatigue in transports carrying supplies would sky out and drive up ops losses. That meant lots of managing transport squadrons turn to turn. Now I can set a squadron to transport supplies with 10 or 20% Rest and fatigue stays acceptable, and ops losses low.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 4:29:50 PM

Dili

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When the raid was detected? Maybe just some fighters or the snall number that was in the air could reach them due to that. In WW2 with no early warning most of bombers "always went trough", they were too fast.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 4:47:40 PM

Misconduct

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quote:

ORIGINAL: witpqs

It's interesting to see the interplay of the CAP and Rest settings. I've just set CAP % accordingly and watched fatigue from turn to turn. The only time I've seen fatigue jump is when CAP % is high or a squadron escorts a raid (mostly say engaging in combat and/or at long range).

So far I've only used Rest for things that are otherwise 100%, like supply or troop transport missions. There it is definitely helpful. Early in AE the Rest percentage only applied to combat missions. Fatigue in transports carrying supplies would sky out and drive up ops losses. That meant lots of managing transport squadrons turn to turn. Now I can set a squadron to transport supplies with 10 or 20% Rest and fatigue stays acceptable, and ops losses low.

Right now I have roughly 20% rest for most fighter squadrons using CAP and so far no real problems from it, Its not really Fatigue I worry about with the rest but Moral, seems if I don't have some rest% then Moral seems to dip to far and pilots won't take off.
as for the cap situation on Moresby, since I added the squadron of P39s the AI is sending planes to Milne Bay to attack my carriers instead, im guessing the CAP% is to high at moresby so they won't launch.

I figured a system out by having 3 carriers together, Lexington with its Buffalos I set for 6k, F3F's are all at 14 and 21k respectably, so far nothing broke through their cap either.

(in reply to witpqs)

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 4:48:29 PM

John Lansford

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If I don't set Rest to a small amount, I notice that fatigue builds up quickly on any squadron performing lots of missions. Even 10% appears to help.

My P-39's at Port Moresby were set at 10k and were so effective at killing Bettys on anti-shipping missions that the AI eventually gave up. I put the Kittyhawks at 15-20k like you did and they kept the Zeros off the lower P-39's and attacked the level bombers too.

(in reply to Dili)

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 6:27:38 PM

AcePylut

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Another question is... is the "rest" setting applied to the planes, or the pilots?

I overstock all my squadrons, keep my rest setting at zero percent, and overall fatigue doesn't rise all that much in my squadrons. I haven't checked the pilot list to see if some pilots are heavily fatigued and others rested, though.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 6:28:39 PM

AcePylut

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I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 6:54:03 PM

Misconduct

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quote:

ORIGINAL: AcePylut

I'd also ask the OP what the weather report was for the hex.

I"m really thinking that weather is one of the most important factors in all this.�

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

I decided I think leadership might of been an issue, perhaps australian I Corps wasn't the right command to put on moresby so I switched with an American Fighter command, and transfered Australian I Corps to Milne Bay. Sadly I wish I could of kept that turn so I could run more scenarios, overall I believe the main issue was the CAP was set for 16k and most likely simply didn't see the incoming planes.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 7:23:11 PM

AcePylut

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Was it a night time attack?

I ask, because even with radar directing you to the target, on a full moon, it's not easy to spot another aircraft at night. Throw in some rain, a 10k foot altitude difference, and it seems plausible.

If it were daytime, yeah 10k foot difference, light clouds... nothing like a cloud layer between 8-10k to throw off spotting the betties. May just have been a case of "Cap was above the clouds, the strike was below it", so unless the CAP gets a lucky hole-in-the-clouds, it's not going to see the netties.

As far as the strike attacking the ships, I can buy that the netties spotted the fleet. If the fleet was moving, they'd all be giving off wakes in the moonlight, which is like having a really big "hey look at me, over here" flag.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 7:39:00 PM

morganbj

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I think that if there is a problem, and I'm not sure there is, it's in the amount of variability of results that result from die rolls, everything else being the same. I've rerun several turns here and there to get an idea how much variablility there is when the situsation is exactly the same during the turn. For example, I ran the PH raid maybe a dozen times and found that BB sinkings ranged from none to eight. I think, though, that the variablity evens out over the course of a few turns.

That said, I have also noticed that when much smaller engegements are rerun, the results seem to be fairly consistent. So, when 20 Betties hit a port, roughly the same number will be lost almost every time.

This leads me to conclude that when there are multiple "phases" in a single turn in a very large enganement(e.g., the PH raid), once things go bad for a player in the early ones, they go worse and worse and additional phases are processed. But, the opposite is also seems to be true. When things go good early on, they go good in all subsequent phases. This is strong evidence that the combat's effects of the first phase have an effect on all subsequent phases. This is as it should be I suppose, but maybe it's exaggerated a little too much by the combat models. I don't know. But, if this is true, it would tend to increase the total variability as turns are rerun.

But, I always like to read what others are seeing, because it helps me put what I see into a larger context. So, keep on posting Misconduct, and anybody else, too.

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 8:03:14 PM

freeboy

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not at all relevent to your actuall issue, BUT are you counterattacking the base the betties flew from?
I as a rule bomb nightly in the early war, even if I hit nothing it seems to wear down the enemy, and soon those planes at night actually hit something and betties become much much less efective, as the game progresses daytime raids work too, as my best fighter plan is my b 24's with huge numbers of a2a kills, playing pbem scen 2 as allies..
So sorry for giving you unsolicited advice and I feel your pain, this game is a geartbreaker, BUT it works both ways as strange thing just happen...
good luck and again, betties? go kill there homes!

(in reply to morganbj)

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 8:06:23 PM

Kwik E Mart

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

Weather was light rain, considering the bombers were able to find 2 heavy cruisers in the Hex I doubt the fighters should of had a problem since radar spotted at 34km out. moonlight was 97% so that couldn't of been a problem.

the conclusion drawn from this comparison is really not logical...

consider:
1) size of a plane compared to size of a cruiser
2) cruisers in a fixed geographic location (port)
3) enemy bogies are moving thru 3 dimentional space (which, by the way, is probably full of clouds and rain) and cruisers are probably stationary
4) radar probably has some degree of error in altitude, bearing and distance
5) i'm not sure what the moonlight has to do with this...was the attack at night?
6) even if the moon was near full (97%), that doesn't necessarily mean any light is getting thru a cloud deck or rain showers
7) the hex is big...it might be raining on the bearing that the bogies are reported, but clear over the cruisers

one other thing that comes to mind is if the CAP range is set to zero, does that allow airborne CAP to be vectored out beyond the CAP'd hex? IOW, detection was 34km, which i believe would be outside the hex and might hinder the effectiveness of the CAP...but this is conjecture on my part...

edit: AcePylut, you are telepathic!

< Message edited by Kwik E Mart -- 4/1/2010 8:07:38 PM >

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RE: Is CAP useles or did I miss something? - 4/1/2010 9:31:12 PM

Cmdrcain

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In AE Cap is different, even if you set to 50 pct Cap, you WILL NOT have always 50 pct of planes on cap

Theres a number always up, others on ready, rest take time to scramble..

So if raid detected late, the cap up engages, the ready cap can get going, the rest may not get in planes to go till bombs start falling..

in WITP, you had the set pct of cap always up... it created also uber cap

AE, cap is flexiable and thats why you see a few engaging then your cap gets reinforced...

IF raid is spotted far enough out.

also as to any TF in hex... plain Cap doesn't cover Tf full... you should if fleets not disbanded have a pct of LONG Range cap
you had only cap 9over base) and rest, no LR cap for covering the whole hex, the TF could been steaming 10-12 miles out
unless it was docked..

Even if docked, plain cap engages raiders... theres then no cap tasked to cover the fleet/ships specific...thats LR cap..

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