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Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 1:00:37 PM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		I have been trying to understand the economics of the game and it is baffling me. Every game I play I eventually end up in the red and can't get out of it. Recently found out about the F12 economic screen so have been trying to use that to gauge whats going on but the numbers don't add up.

Started a new game as Human, Republic in sandbox mode. Really only had to deal with Pirates as no opponents where near me. Selected all my ships and had them retire to nearest shipyard and crash researched concurrent Beam. By the time beam was ready all my ships where gone and pirates where destroying my mining statios (the desired result). My economy was excellent at +25000 credits. Deleted or obsoleted all designs and recreated them with concurrent beam weapons so everything had guns (even freighters). Rebuilt explorers, construction ships and small fleet to protect everything (less than 20 escort class ships with around 650 maintenance each.) All still looks good 17-18,000 credits income. Added small starport to colony world and created a troop transport with modern advances I had made in the 3 years I had played to this point. One done took it and 1 other escort ship and destroyed all pirate bases known. Income still great.
Colonized my first world and created a medium starport cause it was far from home. While the starport was building I colonized a second world and began building a starport there. Suddenly my income goes negative. Not sure what caused it or why but looking at the screens my income is mear 29k while expenses are at 34k. My worlds say they are taxed at 22% and producing 90k income the 2 new colonies are at 0%. The F12 screen doesn't show ay sudden increase in spending to account for this. I had 6 mines 3 gas mine and 1 other (research base). 19 warships (lost a couple during the pirate fights), 4 construction and 4 exploration ships. The private sector looked great with 40k income but state income was suddenly red. One thing I noticed was corruption was 25% but even that doesn't account for the drop that drastic. Didn't save the game will try and redo it this evening to see if I can map out the issue.
So far I find the game intriguing but still needs a lot of work. Not having issues with refueling a learned the docking port was the key. Once I have concurrent beams I can beat the pirates up pretty easily and don't even have to guard bases if they are armed and have time to get their shield charged. Not sure why bases are not armed by default. Just can't get the economy to stabilize for now.
Post #: 1
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 1:03:34 PM   
Litjan

 

Posts: 221
Joined: 3/27/2010
From: Butzbach, Germany
Status: offline 		You do have the second patch (1.02) applied, do you?

Jan


(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 2
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 1:26:23 PM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		Oops yes I should have said that. I do have the patch 1.02 on as well.

(in reply to Litjan)
Post #: 3
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 1:44:04 PM   
Webbco


Posts: 682
Joined: 2/6/2010
Status: offline 		Careful with building a lot of military ships and constructors early on - if you go to the ships and bases screen you can see how much the maintenance costs are for these...it certainly adds up.

Also check to see if you have spies, sometimes the AI recruits quite a few

Check troops too, the computer often puts quite a few on a number of colonies if you have troop management on auto.

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 4
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 2:06:02 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		I would also check ship/base/troop/agent upkeep first to make sure you haven't overbuilt. If you're sure that you have not, please upload a save file for us to check.

_____________________________

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CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Webbco)
Post #: 5
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 6:55:28 PM   
Jim D Burns


Posts: 4013
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Salida, CA.
Status: offline 		Pirate alliances are not tabulated on the economic screen I believe. They can get you in trouble if you have too many.

Jim

_____________________________


(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 6
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 3/31/2010 11:54:37 PM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		I will being duplicating this effort tonight. I didn't have any pirate alliances I dealt with them by destroying them. I had less fleet than what the game starts me with and I was doing fine up to a point. I will try and keep a save file for each year of play so I can map the progression. It may even work out all right on a retry

(in reply to Jim D Burns)
Post #: 7
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 12:33:17 AM   
tuser

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		One thing that may cause some confusion if you aren't expecting it is that you start out with a rather high development value on your homeworld - however, once the starting stock of luxury goods runs out after a little while, your tax income may be reduced significantly.

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 8
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 3:31:52 AM   
Grotius


Posts: 5798
Joined: 10/18/2002
From: The Imperial Palace.
Status: offline 		So how much micromanagement of resources should we do? I seem to be low on Argon, even though the Galactopedia says it's a common resource. Should I take control of a construction ship and order it to build a mining platform at a planet with argon? Or can I trust the AI "private sector" to do this for me?

Also, is there a way to see which ship-construction projects are being delayed because of lack of minerals, and which minerals are lacking?

_____________________________


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Post #: 9
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 4:01:01 AM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		ok Economy crashed again. Will write up my notes and try and upload the files.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 10
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 4:12:48 AM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		What is the process to upload files? I don't see a sticky on it so not sure where or what I have to do.

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 11
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 4:27:14 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hi Autarkis,

If you think you have a save with an issue, there is a pinned thread in the tech support sub-forum that explains where and how to upload it to us. Please also post a thread in that sub-forum telling us what issue the save file is showing.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 12
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 4:52:05 AM   
swatter555

 

Posts: 199
Joined: 3/19/2002
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: tuser

One thing that may cause some confusion if you aren't expecting it is that you start out with a rather high development value on your homeworld - however, once the starting stock of luxury goods runs out after a little while, your tax income may be reduced significantly.



Could the economy crash be that simple? I don't know, my homeworld never recovers to pre-crash levels, even after my economy starts booming again. I will pay close attention next game.

(in reply to tuser)
Post #: 13
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 4:53:07 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Is this with 1.0.2?

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to swatter555)
Post #: 14
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 5:05:03 AM   
DivePac88


Posts: 3119
Joined: 10/9/2008
From: Somewhere in the South Pacific.
Status: offline 		I can't understand these Guys economies crashing, even in pre 1.0.2 patch. I have had no problems with the economies in any of my games. But I do follow one old rule from 'War in the Pacific', and that is to leave very little up to the AI. Which means that I do keep all State spending in my control (State ships, agents, and troops).

_____________________________


When you see the Southern Cross, For the first time
You understand now, Why you came this way

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 15
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 5:09:34 AM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: DivePac88

I can't understand these Guys economies crashing, even in pre 1.0.2 patch. I have had no problems with the economies in any of my games. But I do follow one old rule from 'War in the Pacific', and that is to leave very little up to the AI. Which means that I do keep all State spending in my control (State ships, agents, and troops).
Yeah good luck with that when you hit 148 colonies and are at war with 7 enemy empires and trading with 3 more like in my current game.

Playing Human Republic Pax Romana, following way of the ancients now recently. Already had two civil wars due to war unhappiness and reconquering your own empire is OH SO FUN. :)

Loving the game, just waiting for some of the bugs to get patched up. Its epic really, but beyond anyone's ability to coordinate beyond a certain point. Automation is necessary.

(in reply to DivePac88)
Post #: 16
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 6:05:34 AM   
Tanaka


Posts: 4378
Joined: 4/8/2003
From: USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: autarkis1967

I have been trying to understand the economics of the game and it is baffling me. Every game I play I eventually end up in the red and can't get out of it. Recently found out about the F12 economic screen so have been trying to use that to gauge whats going on but the numbers don't add up.

Started a new game as Human, Republic in sandbox mode. Really only had to deal with Pirates as no opponents where near me. Selected all my ships and had them retire to nearest shipyard and crash researched concurrent Beam. By the time beam was ready all my ships where gone and pirates where destroying my mining statios (the desired result). My economy was excellent at +25000 credits. Deleted or obsoleted all designs and recreated them with concurrent beam weapons so everything had guns (even freighters). Rebuilt explorers, construction ships and small fleet to protect everything (less than 20 escort class ships with around 650 maintenance each.) All still looks good 17-18,000 credits income. Added small starport to colony world and created a troop transport with modern advances I had made in the 3 years I had played to this point. One done took it and 1 other escort ship and destroyed all pirate bases known. Income still great.
Colonized my first world and created a medium starport cause it was far from home. While the starport was building I colonized a second world and began building a starport there. Suddenly my income goes negative. Not sure what caused it or why but looking at the screens my income is mear 29k while expenses are at 34k. My worlds say they are taxed at 22% and producing 90k income the 2 new colonies are at 0%. The F12 screen doesn't show ay sudden increase in spending to account for this. I had 6 mines 3 gas mine and 1 other (research base). 19 warships (lost a couple during the pirate fights), 4 construction and 4 exploration ships. The private sector looked great with 40k income but state income was suddenly red. One thing I noticed was corruption was 25% but even that doesn't account for the drop that drastic. Didn't save the game will try and redo it this evening to see if I can map out the issue.
So far I find the game intriguing but still needs a lot of work. Not having issues with refueling a learned the docking port was the key. Once I have concurrent beams I can beat the pirates up pretty easily and don't even have to guard bases if they are armed and have time to get their shield charged. Not sure why bases are not armed by default. Just can't get the economy to stabilize for now.


Here are two silly things that got me:

1. Paying off too many pirates.

2. Turning of auto tax option. None of my planets were being taxed!



_____________________________


(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 17
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 9:03:40 AM   
ductape

 

Posts: 36
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		how much do agents cost to upkeep?I cant seem to find this anywhere.

(in reply to Tanaka)
Post #: 18
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 9:40:47 AM   
Okim


Posts: 209
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Russian Federation
Status: offline
quote:

Turning of auto tax option. None of my planets were being taxed!


I`ve noticed that too. While my colonies were not taxed at all my homeworld was assigned a tax of 50%! I wonder why my people did not rebel against such tax! Turned AI off and manually adjusted taxes on all planets (so far there are less than 15 of them, so no problem with micro here). Income increased dramatically after that.

(in reply to ductape)
Post #: 19
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 10:32:58 AM   
Gertjan

 

Posts: 698
Joined: 12/9/2009
Status: offline 		I never have econ issues and I do build a lot of bases (starports), which keeps those freighters from travelling long distances (perhaps those starports pay themselves back that way?) and is handy for fleet refueling/management. Another econ tip: play with a race that has some bonusses in the econ shpere and scout a lot in the beginning to find the best colonies.

@Forsaken, I agree with you, once the game gets going and you have a large empire and several restless neighbours you can really be busy. I dont want to be annoyed with doing everying manually. I dislike micro management and love macro management. That's why this game is very good and can be super if automation is further improved (especially ship designing, fuel issues and fleet management, and some diplomacy things). I have high hopes!

(in reply to Okim)
Post #: 20
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 12:09:41 PM   
tuser

 

Posts: 29
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Okim

I`ve noticed that too. While my colonies were not taxed at all my homeworld was assigned a tax of 50%! I wonder why my people did not rebel against such tax! Turned AI off and manually adjusted taxes on all planets (so far there are less than 15 of them, so no problem with micro here). Income increased dramatically after that.



It would be nice to have a configuration possibility for this, like a slider to tell the AI how aggressively it should tax.
As it is now it keeps taxes on relatively lowly populated worlds low to encourage growth - that's not bad, and possibly much better on the long term, but if you are in financial trouble it should be possible to prioritize making some money now instead.

(in reply to Okim)
Post #: 21
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 1:22:54 PM   
boogaboo

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		Hi all (Erik)

In playing I too have run into the odd Economic behavior. I will spell out the game set-up and current state then you all decide if it is a small bug in the game.

The game:
I am Human w/ about 9 colonies.
No wars and 2 Free Trade agreements.
I have a modest fleet (No captitals) and about 6 Lg bases.
I have 1 Pirate alliance for 2k/month.

Issue:
Until a few months ago my economy was fine.
I have done nothing drastic
All my colonies pay some tax (Tried with auto and manual)
I currently have a +12,000 cash flow but my Cash = -33,000 and keep dropping.
I look at the expense overview and I am positive, this shortage of cash seems to be buggy as my current economy should pay that off in a couple months.

Any ideas?

Kev

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 22
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 1:33:59 PM   
Cheet4h

 

Posts: 59
Joined: 3/20/2010
Status: offline 		as mentioned before, the pirate alliances don't show on the summary screen.

General question: Is income on the screen annuary oder monthly?

(in reply to boogaboo)
Post #: 23
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 1:37:24 PM   
Pford

 

Posts: 235
Joined: 11/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Grotius
Also, is there a way to see which ship-construction projects are being delayed because of lack of minerals, and which minerals are lacking?

This is really needed.

(in reply to Grotius)
Post #: 24
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 1:37:30 PM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		Ok uploaded files. Please look at the readme as it gives my perspective on what is happening.
It has the following in it.

   Setup
Galaxy Size Dwarf
Alien Life Young
Expansion Young
Aggression Normal
Research Speed Normal
Space Creatures Normal
Pirates Normal

Home System Normal
Size young
Tech Level Basic
Government Republic
Race Human

2 Empires where added but had no impact on play never saw them. They where set to distant.

Victory conditions (Sand Box mode)


   Timeline

2758.07.19    Start

2759.05.20    All ships Deconstructed and Concussion Beam developed
       Income at +28711
       Buid 4 Explorers
            6 Escorts
            1 Construction Ship

2759.08.28     First Save (Autarkis1967_1styear)
       Income +38081
       Lots of Freightors being built
       Fleet not being built there are bays open.

2759.11.15    Scrapped Fleet as it appears to be Phantom not listed in the Starport but showing in fleet menu.
       Very painful process had to select each ship in fleet menu then exit then scrap.
       Would be helpful to give orders from this screen.

2760.0.03    All those new freightors jut sitting around further appears they are the obsolete design not the new
       one with weapons.Apparantly lost credits from trying to build ships so could only build 4 explorers
       and 5 escorts to start before running out of credits. Construction ship building just fine at planet.

2760.01.11    2nd Save taken
       Think I screwed this save up and may have overwritten one of the 2 saves I have in the directory.

2760.05.28    Income at +33022 lots of spaceport income.

2760.09.22    Gas mining base ordered.

2760.10.14    2nd save taken (Autarkis1967_2ndyear) Due to above error this is named 2nd year.

2761.0.08    Fleet tactics setup wrong for escorts. thier superior firepower is wasted as the are forever
       running away from pirates and only getting 1 out of 6 weapons fireing. Takes 2 Escorts to
       take out a pirate one to be cahsed and the other chasing the pirate.
       Lost Gas Mining station to pirates. Not sure why construction ship didnt fire to protect it.
       Guess either you build or shoot but not both. Beginning 2nd try at building Gas mining station.

2761.07.27    Construction ship vanished. Nothing about it being under attack it is pretty close to my main
       starport to have been attacked. Doesn't show up in fleet or anywhere. Beginning another at -8500 credits.

2761.08.12    3rd save taken (Autarkis1967_3rdyear)
       Income at +22664
       Empire still not expanding due to ship issues escort still in process of being built.

2761.10.12    All escorts finally built (6 added an extra one) Found a destroyer as well all added to fleet 1

2762.02.10    Didn't realize colonies where fully automated planets building colony ships.
       Colony ships of new design.
       Construction ship finished and autodeployed to repair a Capitol ships we found (World Annhilator)

2762.04.16    Pirates becoming a nuisance managed to wipe out a pirate base.

2762.09.03    4th save taken (Autarkis1967_4thyear)
       Income +8055

2762.11.10    Sudden influx of credits. Looks like masive starport gains +36000.

2762.12.21    A new colony founded.

2763.04.32    Lost antoher mining station to pirate attacks.

2763.09.03    Another new colony built.
       5th Save taken (Autarkis1967_5thyear)
       Income +27641

2763.11.09    Began construction of new construction ship since repair the capitol ship is taking so long.
       Income +54721

2764.01.16    Another station destroyed fleet not close enough to respond.

2764.01.11    Income suddenly at -10680.
       It appears spaceport income is down and colony taxes can't pay for base maintenance.
       6th Save taken (Autarkis1967_6thyear)

2764.04.23    Income came back to +7611.

2765.02.19    Gas mining station attacked again fleet killed 2 pirate ships but not before they wacked it.
       This station appears like its destined to not be. Started it again.
       7th Save taken (Autarkis1967_7thyear)
       Income +1538

2765.04.25    Was looking at F12 screen and this is the first time Private sector had zero income.
       They have a large treasury however so this shouldn't be much of a issue.
       Income 14k with 62k in treasury.

2765.08.19    Killed last visible Pirate base.

2765.4.23    Looks like there is anther base around somewhere as pirate attacks continue.

2766.02.19    8th Save taken (Autarkis1967_8thyear)
       Income at -22859.
       Colony tax is only 22k in F12 and almost not starport income although I see lots of private ships
       moving around.

2766.06.20    Income at -32k Private sector at -32k looks like the economy is on a downward slide.

2761.10.05    Ran into refuel bug ordered fleet 1 to refuel but only does the lead destroyeer then deselects mission
       tried numerous times. Set to auto and all ships are jumping to another system so perhaps I am out of
       fuel at this base.

2767.04.11    Pirates again attacking the 1 Gas mining station (only station left other than starport).
       managed to save base this time and kill pirate.
       9th save taken (Autarkis1967_9thyear)
       Income -24769

2768.02.26     Another colony made.

2770.04.17    Last save taken (Autarkis1967_10thyear)
       -25682 income treasury at -26252. Economic Death spiral at this point.   





(in reply to Cheet4h)
Post #: 25
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 1:41:39 PM   
autarkis1967

 

Posts: 45
Joined: 12/13/2007
Status: offline 		I think the issue may be with ship maintenance. Not sure why it is so high per ship. In some cases higher than the ship value. I think 10-15% is sufficient for maintenance. Also while I agree you should get something from merchants for building their ships it does give a false sense of income. Port fees for unloading cargo seem appropriate. I saw lots of merchant traffic of which I got nothing from.

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 26
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 1:49:35 PM   
forsaken1111

 

Posts: 281
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: autarkis1967

I think the issue may be with ship maintenance. Not sure why it is so high per ship. In some cases higher than the ship value. I think 10-15% is sufficient for maintenance. Also while I agree you should get something from merchants for building their ships it does give a false sense of income. Port fees for unloading cargo seem appropriate. I saw lots of merchant traffic of which I got nothing from.
Agreed, I'd like to see docking fees and taxes on civilian exchanges if possible.

(in reply to autarkis1967)
Post #: 27
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 3:38:34 PM   
boogaboo

 

Posts: 8
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		Hi all,

I did a few drastic actions to see if I could turn my economy around and let the game run (ignored messages etc) for 2+ years.

Things I noticed:
- The economic summary as part of your empire overview is in fact annual
- Yet some of the costs you incur are monthly (I.e. pirate alliances)
- Some of the econ activity is not listed (I.e. Free Trade and so on)
- Agents are listed as an anual expense (I think it was 1k)

Actions:
- stopped my Free Trade Agreements (No place can I find an overview of what is actually happening from them) - any see this info any place?
- cranked up my taxes
- reduced a few of my troops
- stopped my pirate alliance (huge drain at 2.5k/month - remember that is close to 30k/yr and econ reports on anualized basis)

Results (After 2yrs game time)
- I was at 13k ++ income with a - 33k balance but the balance would not rise at all
- I am now at 60k income and have a +5k balance and rising

Net result:
Not too sure how this all works as it still makes minimal sense.
I suspect there are hidden costs to Free Trade and other aspects that I tinkered with that are not reported well.

Solution:
Way more detailed MONTHLY financial report page.

Kevin

(in reply to forsaken1111)
Post #: 28
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 3:47:23 PM   
solops

 

Posts: 814
Joined: 1/31/2002
From: Central Texas
Status: offline 		The first two games I went deeply into debt (as much as -170,000) before climbing out of it. My third game I have stayed in the green by radically restricting the number of bases I build until my economy takes off and I can maintain 50k to 100k in excess cash. This is probably not going to happen until you get at least one or two daughter colonies producing at a level of 20% of your HW.

_____________________________

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.-Edmund Burke
Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; if it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it.-Judge Learned Hand

(in reply to boogaboo)
Post #: 29
RE: Understanding the Economic Model - 4/1/2010 3:50:05 PM   
Athalian

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 3/30/2010
Status: offline 		I think that way more details should be made avaiable, even if not usefull, because it makes it seem bit more real :)

(in reply to boogaboo)
Post #: 30
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