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Combined Arms - 7/16/2002 8:32:08 AM   
antarctic

 

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Okay.... Combined arms is were many different types of weaponery and personnel (ie infantry, artillery, tanks) work together, to cover for each other's strengths and weaknesses.

That's the theory, at least.

I'd like to throw the floor open to the forum about how players actually execute a combined arms meeting engagement (or defense, or assault).. either in real life, or in SP

Antarctic

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Re: Combined Arms - 7/16/2002 8:50:12 AM   
Gary Tatro

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by antarctic
[B]Okay.... Combined arms is were many different types of weaponery and personnel (ie infantry, artillery, tanks) work together, to cover for each other's strengths and weaknesses.

That's the theory, at least.

I'd like to throw the floor open to the forum about how players actually execute a combined arms meeting engagement (or defense, or assault).. either in real life, or in SP

Antarctic [/B][/QUOTE]

I have done it and do it all the time in SPWAW. If you have played against an opponent that can use them effectively you are in big trouble if you do not know how to do the same. Just ask my opponents Goblin, M4Jess, Hellcat, Easy8, and RED. VikingNo2 is extremely good at using combined arms. He has kicked my *ss once, draw the second time and I kick his *ss the first time (that does not really count though he played Italy with Country Char on).
To tell you the truth it is not that difficult to do. You need to be patient and have good recon and the rest is just move and shot.

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How I approach it.... - 7/16/2002 9:07:03 AM   
Orzel Bialy


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This is how I generally create a force for battle.

1. Light tanks / AC for recon (with scout riders)
2. Medium/Heavy armor (also with infantry riders or accompanying in HT's)
3. Engineer units for anti mine / anti fortification work
4. AT guns...self propelled when available...for defensive screen to fend off CA's
5. Arty. Both on board and off board ( plus ammo trucks ) with both tracked and squad FO.
6. AA (again self propelled ) to fend off AB drops and air attack. Great to support the AT screen against infantry attack too!
7. Mine points (10 or so ) so my engineers can lay a small fields or block an avenue if need be.
8. More Infantry with what's left over....or heavy MG's.

That is my rule of thumb for picking a force...you have your "eyes", your strike units, your screening units and your support units. Each covers the others weaknesses.

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- 7/16/2002 10:10:14 AM   
Hades

 

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I absolutly suck at combined arms. Keep post tips, please.

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- 7/16/2002 2:14:30 PM   
antarctic

 

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Okay.... it seems that Orzel Bialy isn't the guy you'd want to meet on your first PBEM.....(something I am yet to do)

Assuming a standard 20 turn meeting engagement, what would you have your forces do? (i.e. how is it executed?)

Thanks in advance

Antarctic

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- 7/16/2002 2:49:16 PM   
ZeroAntipop

 

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First. . .

It depends greatly which army you are using. For example, if I was using Great Britain, I would not take as many tanks as I would if I was Germany. I find with Soviets it is most advantageous in the early war to skip out on elite units, and just go for mass fire, as your best hope is to overwhelm the enemy. But you get the gist.

First - I bombard any roads I think the enemy will be coming up on and/or any Victory Hexes I think he will be at. . .also any onboard arty as it appears.
Then - I send out forces to the victory hex areas I have to control, usually infantry with supporting tanks (but I group tanks together for centralized devastating strikes). If I have the luxury, I send out scouts ahead of my main forces.
After that - I do battle with the oponnent, moving pieces as I deem appropriate.

One important thing to remember - don't let units get cut off from other units, I know it's not the Napoleonic Wars, but try to keep a line of sorts, so that you cannot be "divided and conquered."

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- 7/16/2002 3:14:00 PM   
G_X

 

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You can have a totally infantry free army, and still have combined arms, you can have a totally armour free army, and still have combined arms.

The theory behind combined arms is to allow a force to take on ANY opponent and win, not to have a successful mix of different kinds of units, this is just the dimension it normally comes in. If you were to take an almost all infantry army, as I have done in one game, you can still easily have combined arms, by balancing out what you need, with what you have, and strategic placement of units, and such like that.

You can do the same with Armoured Cars and Tanks and such, and have the same effectiveness. Pick an army that can take on anything, but fits your style of play.

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- 7/16/2002 3:44:50 PM   
VikingNo2


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My two cents

Don't be afraid of the tanks, use your infantry. If you pour rifle fire into a tank it usually, makes the tank miss or not even shoot when your tank shows its self. Small arty and mortors, are great; suppression is the key. If you look at WWII the early portion the Germans didn't have the best tanks ( Sorry Goblin, shouldn't talk bad about German Tanks in front of Goblin). What they had were excellent combined arms.

Also run very fast recon like Jeeps or small trucks at long range to draw fire.

P.S. Hades is getting better, at combined arms

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- 7/16/2002 4:12:53 PM   
G_X

 

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If Hades is getting better this may spell doom in my game against him. :(

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- 7/16/2002 5:19:09 PM   
antarctic

 

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[QUOTE]You can have a totally infantry free army, and still have combined arms[/QUOTE]

..... But it doesn't mean you can have a total armour army either
... like what I usually have ... :-)


[QUOTE]If you look at WWII the early portion the Germans didn't have the best tanks [/QUOTE]

Right.... but they had the best numbers... as well as the the best tank tactics... as well as the best combined arms tactics.


Antarctic

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- 7/16/2002 7:43:04 PM   
Hades

 

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Given the amount of time this game as sucked out of my boring life I had better be getting better. Thanks Vik.

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- 7/17/2002 2:11:01 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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I know this is not exactly the intent of the definition of Combined Arms" that is being used in this thread, but I feel the need to point out that early in WW2 the Germans used Blitzkrieg, which was the forerunner of " Combined Arms" just as Combined Arms was the forerunner of the Air/Land Battle . Combined Arms, properly defined, is a set of tactics , not a mix of units. Combined Arms is keyed on a Communications and Co-ordination model (C^2 ) while Blitzkreig is a C^1 model and Air/Land Battle is a C^3 model. The Germans never really achieved classical Combined Arms in WW2 basically because so much had to be filtered up to higher HQ for approval, ( the Panzers at Normandy being a prime example) . Combined Arms requires a situational awareness at lower echelons that makes local co-ordination with intiative possible due to flexible communications and a flexible command structure that allows the high level of situational awareness at lower echelons to exploit an advantage without messing up the overall plan. Proper example of Combined Arms is the flexibility of US Arty in WW2 and the ability to cross attach US Battalions and whole Regiments of whatever type may be needed for mission acomplishment without going two or three echelons above the operational for approval. The ability to compose a force to meet the operational need and to be able to have that force communicate and co-ordinate, and tap into higher echelons for additional fire power, is what Combined Arms is all about. Since Combined Arms in the classical sense requires a high level of communication and flexibility and an unusual amount of autonomy at lower levels of Command and can accomidate a much larger level of indirect support of arty and air , force mixes change to reflect a higher level of Arty and Air support and a lower level of intial contact force size. A good metaphor for this is the old saying that the Main Weapon on the Sherman Tank was the radio, meaning that any pair of eyes with communication could call in basically unlimited firepower. By doctrine in a Combined Arms Tactical situation any unit of any size could call for and expect support from a wide variety of supporting fires for non-organic units with very little vetting from higher HQ. Few Armies in WW2 outside the US Army had the High Level doctrine , the communications assets , the Training ( Squad level and Platoon level ability to call fires) , and the Low Level doctrine of Company and below autonomy and intiative to change the plan to accomplish the mission.

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- 7/17/2002 2:24:00 AM   
VikingNo2


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Well hello Ammo Sgt, I have been trying to emulate your tactic's back when you were crushing/teaching me, and I'm happy to say I have been doing fairly well.

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Sadly - 7/17/2002 6:48:41 AM   
chief


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Yes Viking 2 has been doing VERY WELL I'm writing this from one of his Russian (spelled Siberia) POW Camps. He learns well. Auf Wiedersein Lille.:( :o :mad:

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- 7/17/2002 8:56:22 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Well Hi, back at ya ,Viking, finally massing on one flank ? LOL , You were learning fast when we last met. Alas , I have had to retire from PBEM for a while, maybe this winter. Chief, Good luck and keep a mobile reserve against this guy.

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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Post #: 15
- 7/17/2002 9:39:32 AM   
ZeroAntipop

 

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by AmmoSgt
[B]I know this is not exactly the intent of the definition of Combined Arms" that is being used in this thread, but I feel the need to point out that early in WW2 the Germans used Blitzkrieg, which was the forerunner of " Combined Arms"[/B][/QUOTE]

Combined Arms Tactics existed LONG before Germany existed - it has existed since the dawn of Warfare. Combined Arms Tactics is simply using the various soldiers and their specialities and equipment to negate each other's weaknesses and multiply their strengths. How is putting A cohort of Legionnaires in a phalanx to stop a cavalry charge different than setting up MGs to save your exposed artillery from infantry?

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- 7/17/2002 10:48:33 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Zero , "Combined Arms" like the term "decimate" has both a Classical military meaning, and a civilian common meaning. In the civilian common meaning you are absoultely correct , Armies have been mixing troop types in battle since before they standardized the Mk1 Mod 0 Rock , sometimes out of necesity, sometimes out of choice, sometimes accidently, sometimes on purpose. However the Classical " Combined Arms" Tactics, in the Military sense, came out of the Lousiana Exercises that the US Army conducted in the late 1930's and the Development was further spured by the German Blitzkrieg successes early in WW2. It is argueable by some folks that the first actual use was in the Grand Chaco War , but I see the Grand Chaco as more an early use of Psuedo-Blitzkreig style due to the scope of the forces involved.
The interchangablity of the civilian and military uses of the term occasionally lead folks to misuse the term in many ways and it often causes otherwise good students of military tactics to assume it is just a general term, and a deeper study of the sublities involved get sidetracked.
Just as many folks were suprised by the effectiveness of the Air/Land battle doctrine first used in Desert Storm over past Wars, and the massive changes caused by small things like effective fire while maneuvering with the M1 series Tank over past abilities to fire and maneuver of Armor. Radio and Command and Control doctrine facialiated by the superiority of FM over AM and the mass produced dry cell battery in WW2 made a whole new level of battlefield responsiveness possible. Combined Arms in it's most proper military sense was the doctrine that exploited and drove the development of near real time battlefield C&C with local response and recon being fed up the chain con- current with larger scale plans being fed down the chain of command. The resultant effectiveness is fairly easy to see. Compare German losses while using Blitzkreig C^1 type tactics while attacking massively prepared defenses( technically a Set Piece Defense, a C^0 situation) at Kursk in July 43, and German Losses using the same basic C^1 concepts with suprise against a much weaker and unprepared opponent in the Ardennes in December 1944. The Flexibility and communications of C^2 compleately made up for the lack of extensively prepared positions , the Germans took about the same losses, all things concidered, and their opponents took much lighter casualties in the C^2 situation. Argueably there are great differences between the two battles in many ways, but the similarity in the intial attack results, shallow thwarted offensive progress , inability to sieze key town/road junctions , and Germany's inability to shift forces to sucsessfully exploit oportunity vs the Americans ability to quickly shift , reinforce, and exploit on the same terrain and in the same weather should demostrate the combat multiplier of C^2 over C^1.
The term Combined Arms is used now to describe a multitude of situations , however the term itself was coined to describe the US Doctrine of flexibility and Command and Control, and in my humble opinion simply assuming it is a general term and not a specific doctrine misses the whole point and robs the person who does not realize this of a golden opportunity to study a truely revolutionary concept.

_____________________________

"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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- 7/17/2002 11:32:31 AM   
chief


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Zero aren't you glad you made that comment ....look at all the info Ammo Sgt. passed on to you. Isn't this a wonderful World. By the way Sgt. it was informative. By the way the Navy has used a nautical version of combined arms (called battle groups) for years.;) :cool:

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- 7/17/2002 11:39:36 AM   
AmmoSgt

 

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Chief yep , battle groups for sure , However I would say that an early S class boat doing Battle Group Escort was maybe a C^1 in good weather using a signal lamp, and a 688 doing the same job feeding off of and feeding CIC and using an S-3 to put a Mk-46 in the water on an enemy contact was C^3 . You see what I mean?

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"For Americans war is almost all of the time a nuisance, and military skill is a luxury like Mah-jongg. But when the issue is brought home to them, war becomes as important, for the necessary periods, as business or sport. And it is hard to decide which

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- 7/17/2002 11:43:52 AM   
chief


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ammo sgt.......... >>>>------> c c c :D

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- 7/17/2002 12:31:17 PM   
Hades

 

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Ammo you think to much but very interesting.:D

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- 7/17/2002 3:00:44 PM   
antarctic

 

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Ammo Sgt.... isn't it time that someone promoted you?? :-)

Antarctic

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Post #: 22
- 7/17/2002 3:16:31 PM   
VikingNo2


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Now that depends on what branch of service your in. The army Sgt can mean any number of ranks. In the Marine Corps Sgt is Sgt and you work your way up to either SgtMajor or Master Gunnery Sgt. So Ammo Sgt in the army could be quite high. So I just put AmmoSgt in the catagory of SPWAW God and leave it at that.

What this has to do with Combined Arms NOTHING!:D

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- 7/18/2002 6:19:26 AM   
Big Bill

 

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A lot safer reading her than playing her.............;)

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- 7/18/2002 9:31:07 AM   
antarctic

 

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Okay... now I've got another question. Other than combined arms, what are some other tactics you can use in SP.... ??

Thanks for your continuous help and input guys (is it just me or are there only guys in this forum??)

Antarctic

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- 7/18/2002 10:48:14 AM   
chief


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Ant: To my limited knowledge there are at least 2 lady gammers in this forum, Ammo Sgt. and Alexandra, their may be others and if they are 1/2 as good a player as these two I won't tangle with them in a PBEM game.:) :cool:

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- 7/18/2002 1:40:16 PM   
ZeroAntipop

 

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I still maintain my position. I will willingly concede that the term "combined arms" may not have been used, but the theory most certianly was. Read Caesar's the conquest of Gaul. . .or study Napoleon, you'll see the same thing happening, just albeit a bit slower and with many more troops.

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Post #: 27
- 7/19/2002 9:13:37 AM   
antarctic

 

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[QUOTE]if they are 1/2 as good a player as these two I won't tangle with them in a PBEM game.[/QUOTE]

Ouch! :-)

Antarctic

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