War Weariness... too much?

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War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 8:57:02 AM

forsaken1111

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I have to ask... why is war weariness such a large modifier on colony happiness?

Its fine on well developed colonies, but smaller colonies go into rebellion almost instantly if I have a war which lasts more than a year. I would think that a colony belonging to a warrior race would relish the war, especially if I am winning and they have never been attacked. It doesn't make much sense to me, especially with the way the warrior races are presented, that the people of your empire hate war so much that they will rebel during a war you are winning easily.

This is magnified even more if you are in a war you cannot win, but cannot END either. You are doomed to have parts of your empire split off because your enemy will not end the war and has fought you to a stalemate. I had a game like this where my standing with another empire was too low to buy off and our war had no progress in several years. Unhappiness from war weariness eventually caused a split of my empire, despite the fact that none of my colonies were ever threatened by the enemy. You see, they were so far away that we only ever had border skirmishes, but they would not end the war (which they started anyway) because they didn't like me. We hadn't even been attacked by them in over a year, so the war wasn't even affecting the civilian sector and we lost more ships to pirates each month than during the entire war.

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 9:47:13 AM

Wicky

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From: Linz, Austria
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I agree, the effects from war weariness start with less happy colonists, then the tax goes down to keep them happy. Then you don't have enough money to win the war, then the enemy notices you can't win and denies all request for peace, then your colonies split off and the rest is conquered. You loose!

The effect of war weariness is like a fire, self-feeding and growing exponentially, jumping over to the next nearest thing. It starts with a small match lighting a cigarette and like in a fast chain-reaction consumes everything until all has burnt down, without doing anything!

What shall we do with war weariness then? If one race declares war on me, then we both are in state of war. But that's plain wrong. The enemy can't FORCE me to declare war on them!
If you would agree with me, then the solution would be that you don't have to declare war automatically on every race who declares war on you!
For example the insectoids declare war on you! So what, you don't declare war on them, you just keep playing and defend. Problem solved, you are not at war so there won't be any war weariness.
But if you actively declare war on somebody, then war weariness would kick in normally! That's my idea, hope you find it interesting.

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/3/2010 9:59:17 AM >

(in reply to forsaken1111)

Post #: 2

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 10:14:10 AM

Gertjan

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I dont have too many problems with it at the moment. I'm now in a game in which I'm currently at war with at least 2 empires at the same time. My race dislikes wars a lot. However at the same time many of may colonies are well developed, so things even out and I manage quite well.

(in reply to Wicky)

Post #: 3

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 11:17:11 AM

BigWolfChris

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I believe, war weariness should have little effect

That is, until you either
a) Start Loosing
b) Enemies are close to colonies

At that point, it ramps up, accordingly
So, if you start loosing ships, it ramps up based on how many (but still a low factor if you still have plenty of ships)
Or, if Enemies are close, it only ramps up with the colonies that have enemies near, and then only based on number of you ships vs. their ships in proximity to those colonies... so, single vessels shouldn't make much difference unless they are really powerful

Citizens on colonies far from conflict zones or any enemies fleets should have minimal weariness to a war, or none if you're a race that likes war

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 12:06:10 PM

Duckfang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky
For example the insectoids declare war on you! So what, you don't declare war on them, you just keep playing and defend. Problem solved, you are not at war so there won't be any war weariness.
But if you actively declare war on somebody, then war weariness would kick in normally! That's my idea, hope you find it interesting.

Pretty sure your people would still get sick of the fighting. Possibly even moreso if you weren't doing anything to try and end it (like striking back).

(in reply to Wicky)

Post #: 5

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 12:22:01 PM

Storper

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Perhaps it could be toned down if you are fighting a defensive war if others declare on you and be counteracted by ....I dunno patriotism or whatever if you are taking their colonies right and left?

(in reply to Duckfang)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 1:28:59 PM

PDiFolco

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To me war weariness should pop up if ships are lost, planets get attacked or worse invaded, not only because war is declared in itself... A race shouldn"t be weary of a war that goes well or a "phoney" war where nothing happens.

(in reply to Storper)

Post #: 7

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 2:35:26 PM

Duckfang

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
A race shouldn"t be weary of a war that goes well

This happens all the time irl. People get sick of fighting eventually, regardless of whether they're winning. Sometimes you just want to settle down and have kids.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 2:36:02 PM

frugaldude

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When you set the aggression slider in the game start up screen, does that affect War Weariness? If it is set as peaceful, does that increase the effects of WW to shorten the length of wars? Conversely, does setting aggression to chaotic lessen the effects of WW allowing longer wars before WW takes it toll?

Haven't involved myself in wars yet, just easing myself into the game to prolong the enjoyment.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

Post #: 9

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 2:41:36 PM

Titanwarrior89

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SPeaking of war. I was at war with two alien empires. Then I checked later and we were at peace. I think their should be at least a pop up or am I missing something? If it was in the message scroll at the top-its so small I can barely read it. So I am not sure if it was posted there either.

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 3:51:59 PM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duckfang
This happens all the time irl. People get sick of fighting eventually, regardless of whether they're winning. Sometimes you just want to settle down and have kids.

That also assumes that you are actively fighting in a war, as opposed to it being a phony war that is characterized by an absence of fighting. Also, the main problem with it is that it tends to immediately kill any new colonies first: Your larger colonies are mostly unaffected, it's the small colonies that take the biggest hit because they have no means of generating positive morale.

(in reply to Duckfang)

Post #: 11

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 5:24:42 PM

Wicky

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War weariness is a problem because you automatically declare war back on somebody who has declared war on you.
I mean, this is my war minister. He declares war when I want to. However, everytime some insect on the other end of the galaxy decides to declare war on me, and I have no chance to beg for peace, my war minister automatically stands up and says: "Ok, and we declare war back on you!"

What ever happened to the option B:
"Fine, your race has declared war on me. I opt to do nothing, I will just sit around and defend my colonies."
Then the enemy race would be at war with me and suffer war weariness. However, mine doesn't. I can't attack him, only defend, because officially I didn't declare war back on them!

If this isn't fixed, then I will soon exterminate a whole 20 advanced alien species just with 1 colony ship. How? I build a colony ship, send it to the border of the galaxy where it cant be found. Then I declare war on everyone! They can't find me, yet the more time passes the more unhappy their colonists become. They can't just stop the war because I refuse to give peace! It's just as simple as that. Sooner or later the WW grows to inacceptable levels, everyone of their planets will have 0% tax and still rebell. Even the most advanced planets will bail out after 20 years of war weariness. They can't pay maintenance for their ships and bases anymore. When they are 1 Million credits into debt, their civs all collapse, what will they do against this exploit? LOL. Looking back on the events 30 years later, my colony ship goes to the next nearest planet and starts to build an empire without anyone left. You win!

That's what happens when somebody can control what your own military minister says.

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/3/2010 5:28:14 PM >

(in reply to Fishman)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 5:27:12 PM

freeboy

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well, war weariness is affected by type of Gov, and perhaps by race too?

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 5:43:44 PM

Duckfang

Posts: 71
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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

War weariness is a problem because you automatically declare war back on somebody who has declared war on you.
I mean, this is my war minister. He declares war when I want to. However, everytime some insect on the other end of the galaxy decides to declare war on me, and I have no chance to beg for peace, my war minister automatically stands up and says: "Ok, and we declare war back on you!"

What ever happened to the option B:
"Fine, your race has declared war on me. I opt to do nothing, I will just sit around and defend my colonies."
Then the enemy race would be at war with me and suffer war weariness. However, mine doesn't. I can't attack him, only defend, because officially I didn't declare war back on them!

If this isn't fixed, then I will soon exterminate a whole 20 advanced alien species just with 1 colony ship. How? I build a colony ship, send it to the border of the galaxy where it cant be found. Then I declare war on everyone! They can't find me, yet the more time passes the more unhappy their colonists become. They can't just stop the war because I refuse to give peace! It's just as simple as that. Sooner or later the WW grows to inacceptable levels, everyone of their planets will have 0% tax and still rebell. Even the most advanced planets will bail out after 20 years of war weariness. They can't pay maintenance for their ships and bases anymore. When they are 1 Million credits into debt, their civs all collapse, what will they do against this exploit? LOL. Looking back on the events 30 years later, my colony ship goes to the next nearest planet and starts to build an empire without anyone left. You win!

That's what happens when somebody can control what your own military minister says.

Try it; you'll lose your colony long before that happens.

If someone declares war on you; you aren't declaring war on them. They declare war against you, so now a state of War exists between you whether you like it or not.

I'm lots of countries throughout history would've loved it if they could ignore the negative effects on a population of being at war purely because they were defending themselves.

Sooner or later people get sick of being bombed and of losing their families in the fighting and just want to get on with life.

You can sue for peace immediately the war starts if you like and the diplomacy screen will show you what kind of value you need to be offering before the race that just started a war with you will consider a ceasefire. Although considering you're being a bit of a pushover, the price for peace might be quite high.

(in reply to Wicky)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 5:58:03 PM

HsojVvad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco

To me war weariness should pop up if ships are lost, planets get attacked or worse invaded, not only because war is declared in itself... A race shouldn"t be weary of a war that goes well or a "phoney" war where nothing happens.

I agree. In the game Star Trek The Birth of the Federation. If you loose in combat, the citizens get displeased. If they win, they get a bit happy. If you loose a colony they really get unhappy. Maybe there is a way to impliment this? If not in a patch, an expansion pack.

I hope we really get a good expansion pack that has alot of our ideas.

(in reply to PDiFolco)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 6:10:59 PM

Wicky

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From: Linz, Austria
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In real life, war weariness happens when the military is operating in foreign countries, attacking somebody. People complain about their losses and demand to stop the war.
Mind, that it is within their leaders power at any time to stop the offensive war.

Unlike the "real life", war weariness happens in DW when somebody declares war on you. So ANYONE in the whole galaxy can impose the negative and ever-growing effects of war weariness upon you, as if your opinion didn't matter at all. Like the thread-starter mentioned, he never got into any battles for over a year, yet the enemy race would not agree to peace. Then his colonies all split up and he lost.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Duckfang
If someone declares war on you; you aren't declaring war on them. They declare war against you, so now a state of War exists between you whether you like it or not.

Nop, there's a gargantuan mistake in your logical pattern!
If some bully punches me in the stomach, I can either fight back or stand still and have the Option B to do nothing. As stupid as it sounds, but I can just stand still and wait for more punches. For example Ghandi, when the English were at war with the Indians, but the Indians were not at war with them. They just refused to engage in any resistance.

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/3/2010 6:20:13 PM >

(in reply to Duckfang)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 6:15:50 PM

HsojVvad

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

In real life, war weariness happens when the military is operating in foreign countries, attacking somebody. People complain about their losses and demand to stop the war.
Mind, that it is within their leaders power at any time to stop the offensive war.

Unlike the "real life", war weariness happens in DW when somebody declares war on you. So ANYONE in the whole galaxy can impose the negative and ever-growing effects of war weariness upon you, as if your opinion didn't matter at all. Like the thread-starter mentioned, he never got into any battles for over a year, yet the enemy race would not agree to peace. Then his colonies all split up and he lost.

Hhhmmmm...... So can this be put in reverse? By that I mean declare war on a race that you will know that can't really do you any harm, and hope their War Weariness will cause them to revolt and join your empire then?

(in reply to Wicky)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 6:23:51 PM

Wicky

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From: Linz, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Davor
Hhhmmmm...... So can this be put in reverse? By that I mean declare war on a race that you will know that can't really do you any harm, and hope their War Weariness will cause them to revolt and join your empire then?

Of course this works! That was very, very smart of you Davor, seems like you are the only one who understood. Pick an aggressive race with -70% war weariness and declare war on a democratic empire. OMG! They may capture one of your planets, but in the process their WW will cause 20 of their colonies to rebell, split off from the empire!!

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/3/2010 6:28:07 PM >

(in reply to HsojVvad)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 6:40:58 PM

PDiFolco

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

In real life, war weariness happens when the military is operating in foreign countries, attacking somebody. People complain about their losses and demand to stop the war.
Mind, that it is within their leaders power at any time to stop the offensive war.

That's US-style war weariness, which is much less than for the guys at the other end of the stick !

(in reply to Wicky)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 8:28:15 PM

Wicky

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From: Linz, Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: PDiFolco
That's US-style war weariness, which is much less than for the guys at the other end of the stick!

Hm, you could be right. So what now? See ya!

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/3/2010 8:41:57 PM >

(in reply to PDiFolco)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 8:29:50 PM

forsaken1111

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quote:

ORIGINAL: freeboy

well, war weariness is affected by type of Gov, and perhaps by race too?

I'm sorry I didn't mention, but in the example I gave I was playing a very warlike race, one of the insect races with a natural war weariness tolerance, and had a hive mind government which also had a war weariness tolerance. I still had rebellions every time I established a new colony, and my people at home were very unhappy.

This is a race which has in its backstory that they love to conquer and war on others, and are very xenophobic. I would think they would be HAPPY about me killing someone else, especially when the war never reaches my own colonies.

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 8:45:05 PM

Wicky

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Forsaken1111, the problem is not just "Distant Worlds"-specific. It has been around all forums since CIV4 implemented the whole concept of war weariness, and is still discussed in the Civ-fanatics forum till this day. Other devs like matrixgames have just copied the idea.

Basically, the problem persists, as long as any enemy race can cause you to suffer the effects of war weariness as long as they want it and refuse to offer peace.

My suggestion, to split the formal declaration of war between empires. One empire could declare war on another, but the other empire refuses to declare war back war on the originator! In this solution, only the offensive empire can attack colonies, suffer war weariness. Until you declare war yourself to be able to attack their colonies, you are bound to just defend. But you don't suffer war weariness.
Basically it just boils down to, if your colonies are rebelling, you just stop the war. Your war weariness stops. You don't have to beg for peace of pay outrageous sums to stop war weariness. You won't suffer anymore, but you also can't attack anymore, just defend.

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/3/2010 8:52:25 PM >

(in reply to forsaken1111)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 9:16:45 PM

forsaken1111

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for the more 'evil' races I'd appreciate something as simple as a propaganda option which costs money but stifles war weariness.

(in reply to Wicky)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/3/2010 9:31:44 PM

idgar

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

My suggestion, to split the formal declaration of war between empires. One empire could declare war on another, but the other empire refuses to declare war back war on the originator! In this solution, only the offensive empire can attack colonies, suffer war weariness. Until you declare war yourself to be able to attack their colonies, you are bound to just defend. But you don't suffer war weariness.
Basically it just boils down to, if your colonies are rebelling, you just stop the war. Your war weariness stops. You don't have to beg for peace of pay outrageous sums to stop war weariness. You won't suffer anymore, but you also can't attack anymore, just defend.

Why shouldn't the defenders colonies suffer war weariness?

The risk of sudden death by bombing, invasion or getting shot down in an undefended trading ship seems like a pretty understandable source of unhappiness...

(in reply to Wicky)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/4/2010 3:23:52 AM

Duckfang

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From: United Kingdom
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wicky

Nop, there's a gargantuan mistake in your logical pattern!
If some bully punches me in the stomach, I can either fight back or stand still and have the Option B to do nothing. As stupid as it sounds, but I can just stand still and wait for more punches. For example Ghandi, when the English were at war with the Indians, but the Indians were not at war with them. They just refused to engage in any resistance.

Nice job warping history. The Indians resisted plenty -- they just didn't use violence to do it. Since when was that a "war", anyway? I'm pretty sure the British saw it as policing their colonies; not fighting a war. Wars involve organised violence committed by opposing armed forces.

As for my logic, lol? You really think you have a choice when it comes to whether or not a state of war exists between you and another state? You can refuse to engage in hostilities and be a galactic coward, but a state of war is still going to exist whether you want it to or not. A state of war can be declared by a single party, but it needs an agreement between both the aggressor and the defender in order to return to a state of peace. It does not take the agreement of both parties in order to start a war, lol.

Your people are unhappy that they're at risk of having their homes bombed from orbit, or perhaps they're unhappy that their kin are being killed defending your worlds and you aren't doing anything to stop it. I've had my race drawn into plenty of wars, some of which last for years, and I haven't had any real problem with War Weariness. I'm a Teekan Democracy, for reference.

If war weariness is messing you up that badly then perhaps you need to sue for peace. Swallow your pride and give them whatever they want. I personally think that if you're not even striking back at the enemy then your war weariness should climb even faster as your people begin to wonder why on earth they're being made to sit there and take a pounding.

In summary, all I see in your posts is "The AI is beating me and I don't like it".

(in reply to Wicky)

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RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/4/2010 4:21:25 AM

forsaken1111

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Duckfang

Your people are unhappy that they're at risk of having their homes bombed from orbit, or perhaps they're unhappy that their kin are being killed defending your worlds and you aren't doing anything to stop it. I've had my race drawn into plenty of wars, some of which last for years, and I haven't had any real problem with War Weariness. I'm a Teekan Democracy, for reference.

That's just it though Duckfang, in the example I gave I had war declared on my by an empire so distant he never even came to attack me. An entire ingame year progressed with ZERO contact between our two empires. My people weren't at risk of being bombed, my ships didn't die defending against them. Nothing at all happened as far as hostilities go... yet my colonies went into rebellion which I had to put down by dropping troops in or recolonizing those who declared independence. Why? "I AM UNHAPPY THAT WE ARE AT WAR WITH SOMEONE SOMEWHERE EVEN THOUGH WE HAVEN'T EVEN SEEN THEM IN A YEAR!"

quote:

If war weariness is messing you up that badly then perhaps you need to sue for peace. Swallow your pride and give them whatever they want. I personally think that if you're not even striking back at the enemy then your war weariness should climb even faster as your people begin to wonder why on earth they're being made to sit there and take a pounding.

And in my example, I tried repeatedly to end the war. The state of war was doing more damage to my empire than any number of attacking ships ever could, and it was complete chaos. I refuse to give half my colonies to an 'agressor' who doesn't even attack me, but simply declares war and then demands payment to end it. If your answer is "Swallow your pride and end it" perhaps you should grow a backbone and not cave to ridiculous and unenforcible demands.

(in reply to Duckfang)

Post #: 26

RE: War Weariness... too much? - 4/4/2010 1:46:15 PM

Duckfang

Posts: 71
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quote:

ORIGINAL: forsaken1111 If your answer is "Swallow your pride and end it" perhaps you should grow a backbone and not cave to ridiculous and unenforcible demands.

Not even referring to his point and he says I need a backbone.

I haven't seen the situation you described ingame yet (that is, being destroyed by war weariness from a phony war). Perhaps he was shooting up your civilian ships or your people are upset they can't get any more Sluken Red Bull due to the war.

If they're so far away, what exactly triggered the war? What does it say in your relationship screen with them? In your first post you mention they hate you too much to ever end the war with you, but I've had relations of -200 or so with enemies before and was still able to sign an unconditional peace treaty (ie white peace) or a treaty that benefit me. With just instinctive hate and dislike of your type of government, it shouldn't be more than -25.

Which race are you playing as? What type of government are you using? You haven't told us any of this, just given a claim that war weariness is too much and that people can apparently hate you so much they won't accept peace.

I have the sneaking suspicion you have a terrible reputation and it's that + war weariness that's grinding you down.

(in reply to forsaken1111)

Post #: 27