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!!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/4/2010 10:37:55 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		In 1942 The 16th and 21th Sentai Operated the KaI-45 Nick Historically, but in the game this squadrons are either not represented or are unable to operate the Aircraft.

Actually, it seems as despite that this Aircraft Historically served in New Guinea, Burma and China in 1942, it in AE game it will be locked to a single restricted unit in Japan for 1942. (Both with PDU on and OFF)

I get the humble impression that the Matrix designers has done this with intention, as it applies to sevreal other "better" Japanese early war designs as well.

I sent a PM asking some of the designers about this, but got no reply.

I apology that I find this frustrating, but I still have the (PDU ON) "Nearly No Navy fighters can upgrade to Navy fighter N1K George" syndrome fresh in mind.. and now see similar things happening on the Army side.




< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/4/2010 11:21:31 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 12:08:18 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
Joined: 2/18/2009
From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		P.Hausser you gotta remember something, Teh developers might not know every specific detail about a game they are designing the size of WITP Ae, its possible some have the knowledge, but it takes players like us and beta testers to sort out that information correctly.


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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 12:15:38 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Misconduct

P.Hausser you gotta remember something, Teh developers might not know every specific detail about a game they are designing the size of WITP Ae, its possible some have the knowledge, but it takes players like us and beta testers to sort out that information correctly.





NO! THEY SHOULD KNOW EVERYTHING!!!!!!

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 12:17:57 AM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline 		There are a couple of units that can upgrade to the NICK, for es: 5th,[Japan] 13th[Japan], 84th Sentai[Indo China] Nate's at the start of the game can upgrade to any of the Nick's.

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 4/5/2010 12:23:45 AM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 12:48:45 AM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		13th Can not upgrade to this until way into 1943,     and the 84th Must stay Nate until this date because IF you upgrade the Nates just once to anything else then you loose the abilety for the rest of the game.

Practically you are looked, and the historical units who actually are represented in the game can't upgrade to it either.
The other historical units who used it are just simply not represented in the game, The same applies to most units who used the N1K George.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

Nate's at the start of the game can upgrade to any of the Nick's.




This may have been the case in a earlyer version? But in the newest version it is not the case.

< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 12:56:53 AM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 12:56:20 AM   
CarnageINC


Posts: 2208
Joined: 2/28/2005
From: Rapid City SD
Status: offline 		Here is an intresting PM i got from Hausser

quote:

ORIGINAL:  P.Hausser

For being born in 1972 your post in my thread is very very childish.



Thanks for the info mate, your to serious about yourself



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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 1:00:28 AM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		I don't expect anyone to know everything, I was hoping however that PDU-ON would allow you to produce modern aircraft when they get available, and then upgrade your frontline squadrons to them.  I do not remember how WITP solved this originally, but in Big.B mod who is the one I played a lot it was not an issue.

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 11:35:33 AM   
frank1970


Posts: 1678
Joined: 9/1/2000
From: Bayern
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: CarnageINC

Here is an intresting PM i got from Hausser

quote:

ORIGINAL:  P.Hausser

For being born in 1972 your post in my thread is very very childish.



Thanks for the info mate, your to serious about yourself





Don´t know whether you are childish or not, but it seems bad style to me, to make a PRIVATE message somehow PUBLIC. I am sure you asked Hausser before you posted?

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 4:03:13 PM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
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quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

13th Can not upgrade to this until way into 1943,     and the 84th Must stay Nate until this date because IF you upgrade the Nates just once to anything else then you loose the abilety for the rest of the game.

Practically you are looked, and the historical units who actually are represented in the game can't upgrade to it either.
The other historical units who used it are just simply not represented in the game, The same applies to most units who used the N1K George.


quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

Nate's at the start of the game can upgrade to any of the Nick's.




This may have been the case in a earlyer version? But in the newest version it is not the case.



I am playing scen #1 version is 1.03.1102a What scenario are you playing and what year/month/day?

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Post #: 9
RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 4:23:11 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		I will check

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 4:23:40 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

I am playing scen #1 version is 1.03.1102a What scenario are you playing and what year/month/day?



Same scenario and newest version.

There is at Scenario start 3 Squadrons who can do the upgrade, 84th, 4th and another.
2 of them are loocked to Japan and 1 is in Indo China as I.F 84th. Howver you need to keep the 84th flying Nates untill you can do the upgrade or you loose it for ever.

You can open a random scenario 1, 7/41 and try any Nate group you like, and you will see.
Note that there is 2 other Nate groups who can do the upgrade, but only to Ki-45B version, so not untill mid 1943, and by then the aircraft is obsolete anyway.

The KI-45A version comes in 5/42 and can be upgraded to by 3 Squadrons, of who 2 are looked in Japan and 1 is (and must stay) Nates untill the upgrade.


< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 4:25:48 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 4:51:53 PM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
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quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

I am playing scen #1 version is 1.03.1102a What scenario are you playing and what year/month/day?



Same scenario and newest version.

There is at Scenario start 3 Squadrons who can do the upgrade, 84th, 4th and another.
2 of them are loocked to Japan and 1 is in Indo China as I.F 84th. Howver you need to keep the 84th flying Nates untill you can do the upgrade or you loose it for ever.

You can open a random scenario 1, 7/41 and try any Nate group you like, and you will see.
Note that there is 2 other Nate groups who can do the upgrade, but only to Ki-45B version, so not untill mid 1943, and by then the aircraft is obsolete anyway.

The KI-45A version comes in 5/42 and can be upgraded to by 3 Squadrons, of who 2 are looked in Japan and 1 is (and must stay) Nates untill the upgrade.




I would just pay the political points and move them out;for ex, take the 5th's Nate's, pay 60 PP [start of game] , using drop tanks, move the to Chichi-Jima, upgrade to 1a's on 5/42

I have the latest version, changed the 84th's Nate's to Oscar's and the next listed upgrade for the unit are Nick's 1a 5/42. Maybe your files are corrupted? Or did you update the game in progress?

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 4/5/2010 5:18:09 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 5:30:46 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
No, I have tested on 2 different PC's, and here is the test when doing it from scratch (7/41)




Squadron in orginal form:





Squadron after upgraded to Oscar (NOTE that KI45A is gone from Upgrade list)





< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 5:31:04 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 5:33:08 PM   
ny59giants


Posts: 9869
Joined: 1/10/2005
Status: offline 		Simple fix for you. Save the Scenario you want to play (PBEM or AI) in a slot number above 20. Go into Editor and make the changes you want. If you find errors from your perspective, then you can make the changes and not need to restart the game.

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Post #: 14
RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 5:35:52 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		And here is the other Squadron who can do the Upgrade, NOTE it is looked and can not be payed PP for.







So, you are looking at a situation were you can have 12 Nick's in frontline service until mid 1943, (assuming you keep the Nates..)
Who makes it a bit pointless as the Aircraft will be more or less obsolete by then. Historically it saw frontline action as of Mid 1942 in Burma, China and New Gunney with Squadrons who is not represented in the game, or who is represented but can not upgrade to it.




< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 5:46:46 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 5:41:13 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ny59giants

Simple fix for you. Save the Scenario you want to play (PBEM or AI) in a slot number above 20. Go into Editor and make the changes you want. If you find errors from your perspective, then you can make the changes and not need to restart the game.



This would be sort of a different topic, one can always play a Mod of course.

But the point I am trying to make is not that the game can be modified, but I instead try to point out that this is a flawed in the design of the ordinal product and maybe should be considered to be fixed via the games official upgrade and patching system.

The squadrons who is not represented in the Game should probably also be added to the game, unless the designer have game balance reasons in mind ?

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 6:23:59 PM   
SuluSea


Posts: 2358
Joined: 11/17/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser
unless the designer have game balance reasons in mind ?



I wouldn't be opposed to removing some of the numerous bonuses the Japanese side gets in exchange for these planes. Sign me up.

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 7:07:23 PM   
Iron Duke


Posts: 529
Joined: 1/7/2002
From: UK
Status: offline 		Checked the editor - there are 7 sentai that upgrade to the ki-45 -- 4th,5th,13th,84th 27th,45th and 53rd
there are also 3 chutai that upgrade to the ki-45 -- temp.flight.chutai, spc.attck.unit and hakko dai hachi tai.

accordingto JAPANESE AIRCRAFT OF THE PACIFIC by Francillon there were 9 sentai (4th,5th,13th 16th,21st,27th,45th,53rd,65th and 70th) and 2 chutai and a fighter training school.
the 1st unit (4th) to recieve the ki-45 was in aug 42
the 1st unit (21st- Burma) to enter a combat theatre was in oct 42 , with the 16th(China) entering combat in nov 42

I don't see that the discrepancy is that great.

16th sentai has ki-48's
21st sentai is missing
70th sentai has ki-44's



< Message edited by Iron Duke -- 4/5/2010 7:33:26 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 8:03:24 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline 		You clarely do not get the point.

It is not about the total number who do upgrade, but about when they can upgrade, what relevance does it have if you can upgrade in 45?

If you allow 75% of the ones who upgrade to do the upgrade in 1944 or 1943 (to the later versions only), then that is pointless as the Aircraft is already obsolete by then.
When the Aircraft was at its peak, it in AE can be operated (outside of Japan) by 1 Squadron of 12 Aircraft, and that assumes you have keept that Squadron as Nates until that point.

The Ki-45A is a good aircraft when it comed out, (In compared to other aircraft used at the time). The KI-45B is not so good.. as it comes out 1 year later, and by then the design is more or less obsolete.

This is not so realistic, as far more squadrons operated this aircraft outside of Japan during 1942 then what is possible in AE.
It is the same story about the Jack & N1K George, but lets not go into that, there have been a numerous amount of posts about that already.




< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 8:16:58 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 8:13:44 PM   
moose1999

 

Posts: 788
Joined: 10/26/2006
Status: offline 		About the "almost no squadrons can upgrade to the George (and Jack)" problem...:

I "solved" this by just making the George and Jack carrier capable.
With one stroke almost all navy fighter squadrons can upgrade to Jack and George.
Will require a few home rules, of course, but it's very simple.


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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 8:42:26 PM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline 		I don't understand how I am able to change the HQ by paying the PP and moving the units out of Japan and changing to the Nick 1a. Scen1, latest patch. I ran it 3 times, was able to pay the points and move the 2 units out of Japan to Chichi Ichi
Is there a random upgrade in air units? If I change the 5th; your right, it will not let me go to the 1a, only the 1c.

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 8:52:47 PM   
Shark7


Posts: 7937
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From: The Big Nowhere
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser


No, I have tested on 2 different PC's, and here is the test when doing it from scratch (7/41)




Squadron in orginal form:





Squadron after upgraded to Oscar (NOTE that KI45A is gone from Upgrade list)






If you swap this unit back to Nates, will you be able to choose the Nick then, or is it completely locked out until '43 no matter what you do?

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 8:54:55 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser


Actually, it seems as despite that this Aircraft Historically served in New Guinea, Burma and China in 1942, it in AE game it will be locked to a single restricted unit in Japan for 1942. (Both with PDU on and OFF)


I am facing Nicks stationed on Timor in Jul 42 in my Scen 2 game with PDU on.

quote:


I get the humble impression that the Matrix designers has done this with intention, as it applies to sevreal other "better" Japanese early war designs as well.


I believe your impression is generally correct. Upgrade paths for both sides (even with PDU on) are restricted so the aircraft mix across all active squadrons does not become too unbalanced. This may seem arbitrary, but remember that the Grisgby game design only allows one side to adjust production, so for the game to remain balanced, the amount a variation in the force composition has to be limited by some means.

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 9:17:59 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Shark7


If you swap this unit back to Nates, will you be able to choose the Nick then, or is it completely locked out until '43 no matter what you do?






This is the Picture after I downgrade the Oscars back to Nate's agian, note you can now see that BOTH the KI-45 alternatives has dissapered.

(KI-45A dissaperes if you change the 84th to Oscars, and you are then left with only KI-45B as an Option). WHEN / IF you change the Oscars back to Nates, then BOTH the KI-45 versions are gone.

So if you want those modern fighters in mid 42... then you need to keep the Nate in service until then..
It is my impression after playing arround with this now for quite a while that you are limited to only aircrafts,
(not counting units locked in Japan or the Special Attack Unit who will withdraw shortly after it arrives).

I checked the Squadron names who another poster presented above, after having checked all of them I did not find that any of them operates outside of Japan and are able to upgrade to the Ki-45a (Other then the 84th who I have mentioned above).


This is PICTURE after I changed back to Nates agian.



< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 9:28:44 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 9:19:25 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

I don't understand how I am able to change the HQ by paying the PP and moving the units out of Japan and changing to the Nick 1a. Scen1, latest patch.




Are you able to use the example in picture a few posts above ?
(4th Sentai) Do you menage to Pay PP for the Permanentlly locked (R) Unit.. how do you do to get it out ?


< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 9:21:17 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 9:48:37 PM   
Wirraway_Ace


Posts: 1400
Joined: 10/8/2007
From: Austin / Brisbane
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: P.Hausser

quote:

ORIGINAL: Termite2

I don't understand how I am able to change the HQ by paying the PP and moving the units out of Japan and changing to the Nick 1a. Scen1, latest patch.




Are you able to use the example in picture a few posts above ?
(4th Sentai) Do you menage to Pay PP for the Permanentlly locked (R) Unit.. how do you do to get it out ?


I don' think Termite2 is moving the 4th Sentai. I presume he has found at least one other Nate unit that is not permanently restricted that can upgrade to Nicks. My opponent apparantly found at least one similiar unit.


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Post #: 26
RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 10:08:33 PM   
pompack


Posts: 2582
Joined: 2/8/2004
From: University Park, Texas
Status: offline 		Scen #1 1031102a PDU on

As of sep42 I have the 5th Sentai with 42 Nick Ia in Burma and the 13th Sentai with 42 Nick Ia in the DEI. The 4th Sentai is restricted to HI defense but it will have 44 Nick by the time I need it.

So I got 84 Nick Ia into play in the Summer of 42 with no issues at all. I did not catch the 84th conversion; I will look into it and thanks

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Post #: 27
RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 10:49:45 PM   
eloso


Posts: 335
Joined: 5/28/2006
From: The Greater Chicagoland Area, USA
Status: offline 		Couple of points:

The Nick is classified in game as a Figther-Bomber. The Nate is a Fighter. Even with PDU on, cross-class upgrading isn't possible unless pre-defined for the air group in the editor.

Once you, as the player, make the choice to upgrade to something else away from this pre-defined path, you lose the opportunity to upgrade to that aircraft type in the future. It was like this in WITP too.

Looking at the 5th Sentai in the editor the upgrade path is for the early version of the Nick. In AE, unlike it's predecessor, you can define multiple upgrade options for specific air units. See Below:



I suspect this is why the upgrade choice becomes the mid-war model Nick after you choose to deviate from the historical upgrade path.

I would say that this isn't broken, but WAD.

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/5/2010 10:51:33 PM   
P.Hausser


Posts: 416
Joined: 8/16/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: pompack

Scen #1 1031102a PDU on

As of sep42 I have the 5th Sentai with 42 Nick Ia in Burma and the 13th Sentai with 42 Nick Ia in the DEI. The 4th Sentai is restricted to HI defense but it will have 44 Nick by the time I need it.

So I got 84 Nick Ia into play in the Summer of 42 with no issues at all. I did not catch the 84th conversion; I will look into it and thanks







How did you do? Mine 13th looks like this.
Only the 'C' Nik in list..



< Message edited by P.Hausser -- 4/5/2010 10:52:10 PM >

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RE: !!!!! *%¤/#%/ !!!! Aircraft - 4/6/2010 12:16:46 AM   
Bearcat2

 

Posts: 577
Joined: 2/14/2004
Status: offline 		I am changing the HQ of the 5th[Tokyo, 1st Air R] & 13th[Osaka 1st Air R] and flying them out; both can upgrade to Nick 1a's.
Sorry, I have never figured out how to post screenshots.

< Message edited by Termite2 -- 4/6/2010 12:18:41 AM >

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