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CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 2:52:51 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline 		I have had some issue with crazy CD guns but this beats my examples.


quote:

Pre-Invasion action off Sovetskaya Gavan - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

1594 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
BB Mutsu, Shell hits 118, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Nagato, Shell hits 133, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chokai, Shell hits 78, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Takao, Shell hits 79, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Shiranui, Shell hits 24, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hayashio, Shell hits 19, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Kofuku Maru, Shell hits 12, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Turusima Maru, Shell hits 1
xAKL Kurama Maru, Shell hits 2, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Nanko Maru, Shell hits 4, on fire
PB Taiko Maru, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Saiko Maru, Shell hits 9, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Myoken Maru, Shell hits 11, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Kure Maru #5, Shell hits 7, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Keiko Maru, Shell hits 10, heavy fires, heavy damage
PB Kamitsu Maru, Shell hits 6, on fire
PB Edo Maru, Shell hits 6, heavy fires
PB Busho Maru, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Yamafuku Maru
DMS W-16

Japanese ground losses:
291 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 9 disabled
Non Combat: 4 destroyed, 16 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled


Allied ground losses:
83 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 12 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 1 disabled
Guns lost 2 (1 destroyed, 1 disabled)

BB Mutsu firing at Sovetskaya Naval Fortress
BB Nagato firing at Sovetskaya Naval Fortress
CA Chokai firing at De-Castrinsky Naval Fortress
CA Takao firing at De-Castrinsky Naval Fortress
DD Shiranui firing at Sovetskaya Naval Fortress
DD Hayashio firing at De-Castrinsky Naval Fortress
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Turusima Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kurama Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 8,000 yards
BB Nagato fires to suppress enemy guns at 8,000 yards
PB Taiko Maru firing at enemy troops
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Taiko Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Taiko Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Taiko Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Saiko Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Saiko Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Saiko Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Saiko Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Myoken Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Myoken Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Myoken Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Myoken Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Kure Maru #5 firing at enemy troops
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kure Maru #5 at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kure Maru #5 at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kure Maru #5 at 2,000 yards
120mm P1905 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kure Maru #5 at 2,000 yards
PB Keiko Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Keiko Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Keiko Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Keiko Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Kamitsu Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Keiko Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Keiko Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Keiko Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Kamitsu Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kamitsu Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kamitsu Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kamitsu Maru at 2,000 yards
120mm P1905 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Kamitsu Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Edo Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Edo Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Edo Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Edo Maru at 2,000 yards
PB Busho Maru firing at enemy guns
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Busho Maru at 2,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Busho Maru at 2,000 yards
130mm B-13 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Busho Maru at 2,000 yards
120mm P1905 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging PB Busho Maru at 2,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 4,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Sovetskaya Gavan - Coastal Guns Fire Back!

400 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
DD Amatsukaze, Shell hits 21, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Natsushio, Shell hits 32, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Kofuku Maru, Shell hits 8, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chokai, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Mutsu, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Kurama Maru, Shell hits 1, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Nagato, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Takao, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Turusima Maru, Shell hits 1, on fire
xAKL Nanko Maru, Shell hits 4, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAK Yamafuku Maru
DMS W-16
xAK Boston Maru

Japanese ground losses:
151 casualties reported
Squads: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Non Combat: 1 destroyed, 15 disabled
Engineers: 0 destroyed, 0 disabled
Guns lost 6 (0 destroyed, 6 disabled)



DD Amatsukaze firing at Sovetskaya Naval Fortress
DD Natsushio firing at De-Castrinsky Naval Fortress
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
120mm P1905 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kurama Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Nagato fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Turusima Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Kofuku Maru at 10,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 10,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 6,000 yards
Defensive Guns fire at approaching troops in landing craft at 2,000 yards

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Invasion Support action off Sovetskaya Gavan
Defensive Guns engage approaching landing force

44 Coastal gun shots fired in defense.

Japanese Ships
xAKL Nanko Maru, Shell hits 24, heavy fires, heavy damage
DD Hatsukaze
BB Mutsu, heavy fires, heavy damage
xAKL Turusima Maru, Shell hits 6, on fire
xAK Yamafuku Maru



180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 9,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 9,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards
152mm P-1892 CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 9,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Turusima Maru at 9,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 9,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 9,000 yards
BB Mutsu fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards
180mm B-1-K CD Gun Coastal Battery engaging xAKL Nanko Maru at 9,000 yards
DD Hatsukaze fires to suppress enemy guns at 9,000 yards


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
COMBAT EVENTS FOR 04/20/42
SHIP CREWS PERFORM DAMAGE CONTROL
BB Mutsu sinks....
CA Takao sinks....
CA Tone sinks....
DD Natsushio sinks....
DD Hayashio sinks....
DD Shiranui sinks....
DD Amatsukaze sinks....
PB Busho Maru sinks....
PB Edo Maru sinks....
PB Kure Maru #5 sinks....
PB Myoken Maru sinks....
PB Taiko Maru sinks....
xAKL Kofuku Maru sinks....
xAKL Kurama Maru sinks....
DIVIDE CRIPPLED TFs


All capital ships sunk


The CD results are cracy ... The interesting things is the BBs and CAs stood of the coast at 10K and the PBs closed which is realistic.


However there are issues
1) Lots of small guns doing small damage but with LOTS of shots resulting in high damage. ( not that there are many guns but they fire often)
2) The inability to surpress the defenders guns. It seems CDs fire rate has been bumped but withotu increasing the ships abbility to surpress the fire .
3) Capital ships will move away if seriously damaged (critical hit excepted) .

These 4 old 7" guns had a penetration of about 1.5 - 1.75" at 10K yards but i suspect the pre great war 1913 mod 5" did most of the damaage.

If cd guns were that good Japan is better of just taking them of there ships and wait for the US to impale theselves :-)




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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 2:59:39 AM   
TulliusDetritus


Posts: 5521
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From: The Zone™
Status: offline 		Why are you disturbing the crazy bear?

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 3:09:58 AM   
Misconduct


Posts: 1864
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From: Cape Canaveral, Florida
Status: offline 		How the hell does a 180mm gun knock out a battleship? at most it would only destroy AA batteries but not penetrate? 

Edited: what Coastal gun hit the battleships, im assuming the 180mm guns?

< Message edited by Misconduct -- 4/12/2010 3:10:37 AM >

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 5:03:40 AM   
mike scholl 1

 

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Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

I have had some issue with crazy CD guns but this beats my examples.

All capital ships sunk




Finally! An accurate game result, and a perfect illustration of why real world commanders avoided CD installations like the plague. It's one thing to take on a few guns on the coast..., but a genuine pre-war built Coast Defense Installation was a ship killer.

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Post #: 4
RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 8:30:01 AM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		a loopsided, broken result. Unfortunetely this still can happen and I´m not sure it will ever be cured (or even can be cured).

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 10:14:32 AM   
PresterJohn001


Posts: 382
Joined: 8/11/2009
Status: offline 		Theres a couple of issues here, firstly is it reasonable for those cruiser sized guns to have sunk all the ships esp the BB's, who would have probably got the hell out of dodge
if damage started to mount up anyway. Its not like its difficult to um move away. So the result is very unreasonable.

Secondly whatever you think of the result, playing on a shifting battlefield is pretty difficult. Certainly if previous experience playing the game indicated that the force should be enough,
then to find the latest patch has dramatically changed the balance makes it pretty unfair. I'd be really pissed.


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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 11:22:52 AM   
bklooste

 

Posts: 1104
Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

I have had some issue with crazy CD guns but this beats my examples.

All capital ships sunk




Finally! An accurate game result, and a perfect illustration of why real world commanders avoided CD installations like the plague. It's one thing to take on a few guns on the coast..., but a genuine pre-war built Coast Defense Installation was a ship killer.



eh this place had less CD than Tarawa ( 4 7" guns with pre great war AP rounds and 5" guns of similar vintage). I think we will see it change when the Japanese spend PPs to buy out CDs and US BBs will hit the bottom


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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 11:50:56 AM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
Joined: 4/29/2002
Status: offline 		Someone has already tried invading Saipan and lost several heavy ships to the CD guns there.  I have to join with the crowd complaining about destroyer and light cruiser sized guns sinking heavily armored battleships; Tennessee got hit several times by a 6" battery off of (I think) Saipan and only lost one 5" turret to damage.  Even if for some reason the BB could not silence the battery (Tennessee destroyed that particular battery with several salvos of 5" shells), they could disengage at will.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 12:02:17 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
Joined: 8/23/2004
From: Austria
Status: offline 		The disengage thing is what would make everything bigger than a row boat being able not to be sunk (or the chance being VERY small) by a CD battery that has WWI light cruiser gun size. It´s a difference if you´re moving around on the open sea engaging a shore battery or if you´re in a narrow fjord passing by in a couple of 100m distance to a shore battery without any room to maneuver.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 1:07:37 PM   
John Lansford

 

Posts: 2662
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Status: offline 		That probably explains why so few ships were sunk or even heavily damaged by shore defense guns in the Pacific; the bombarding ships stayed out of the CD guns' range and shelled them in relative safety.  This nonsense of BB's being hit hundreds of times by small/medium caliber guns is ridiculous; any shore gun that fired on a BB quickly found itself on the receiving end of dozens, if not hundreds of 5" and larger shells accurately fired back at it.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 2:41:50 PM   
bklooste

 

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Joined: 4/10/2006
Status: offline 		I dont think in this case the BBs or Cruisers would stay beyond the gun range since the shells cant penetrate the turrets , deck or belt.

The accuracy of these guns are absurd eg just these

BB Mutsu, Shell hits 118, heavy fires, heavy damage
BB Nagato, Shell hits 133, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Chokai, Shell hits 78, heavy fires, heavy damage
CA Takao, Shell hits 79, heavy fires, heavy damage

If they hit 5% ( which is pretty high  per Gun, it would give a 10 gun salvo 50% chance per salvo) at 10K yards for a 5" gun thats ~8000 shells fired just on these 4 ships , barrel live of the 7" is about 300 ( -50 to -100 or so for test firings ) .

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 2:55:12 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

eh this place had less CD than Tarawa ( 4 7" guns with pre great war AP rounds and 5" guns of similar vintage). I think we will see it change when the Japanese spend PPs to buy out CDs and US BBs will hit the bottom




HORSEHOCKY! You are taking on a large number of 5.1, 6, and 7" guns that are part of an integrated coast defense system, not some "strays" dragged to an atoll shooting over open sights. Japan has some of these installations as well, at Tsushima and Tokyo Bay and such..., and the US should mess with them at their own peril. It's the fire control and accuracy that makes such places deadly. Look what happened to the Blucher when she took on 50 year old defenses at Oslo.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 2:58:55 PM   
Nikademus


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quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste


eh this place had less CD than Tarawa ( 4 7" guns with pre great war AP rounds and 5" guns of similar vintage). I think we will see it change when the Japanese spend PPs to buy out CDs and US BBs will hit the bottom



The shells caused uncontrollable fires that also disabled the fire mains. The ships thus were all doomed to explode.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 3:02:20 PM   
freeboy

 

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From: Colorado
Status: offline 		well, I attacked Babeldoad or whatevertheheck its called, all heavy ca.. base has been isolated for about 16 months or longer, thought I would just stop in to top off the damage my wekkly bombers been to the float planes there, and WHAT do you think happened?
I am not sure oi fthe last patch did something to the rutines BUT the results where not happy for me, on the other hand my pbem friend was estatic I am sure... we are talking really high results, that at night ove rthe horizon type shelling just shold not endure... after all what commander is going to sit there and watch a fleet decimated? let allone the results themselves for HUNDREDS of hits? on a capital ship.. its not like these guys dropped anchor!!! so, my .02 is the rutine may need to be toned down just a shade! lol

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 3:42:40 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Status: offline 		freeboy,

I had a TF made up of 5 BB's and 2 CA's bombard Mili, had recon flying daily on the place from Makin for two weeks, and LBA hitting it daily too.  Every single one of the BB's took significant (>25) System damage, plus secondary/AA gun damage.  The two CA's got chewed up bad too although none were sunk.  The results I saw indicated some port and supply hits, and about 100 casualties.  Mili is isolated thanks to Makin and Tarawa in my hands; everything bigger than a barge has been sunk trying to get there from Eniwetok, and my carriers roam CentPac with impunity in 4/43.

It's a combination of issues, I think.  Just because a unit has "CD" in its name shouldn't mean it has boresighted, super accurate weapons; that should be limited to places like Corregidor, Singapore, PH, etc.  If any ship started taking a lot of hits from a CD installation it would move out of range; if it had guns that outranged the CD it would normally stay out of range from the start and pound away. 

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 3:55:40 PM   
castor troy


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From: Austria
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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1


quote:

ORIGINAL: bklooste

eh this place had less CD than Tarawa ( 4 7" guns with pre great war AP rounds and 5" guns of similar vintage). I think we will see it change when the Japanese spend PPs to buy out CDs and US BBs will hit the bottom




HORSEHOCKY! You are taking on a large number of 5.1, 6, and 7" guns that are part of an integrated coast defense system, not some "strays" dragged to an atoll shooting over open sights. Japan has some of these installations as well, at Tsushima and Tokyo Bay and such..., and the US should mess with them at their own peril. It's the fire control and accuracy that makes such places deadly. Look what happened to the Blucher when she took on 50 year old defenses at Oslo.




Guess the Blucher is the example I used when I was talking about Fjords and open sea. The Blucher is definetely NOT what you should use when you talk about "coast" defenses.


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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 3:58:50 PM   
janh

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Look what happened to the Blucher when she took on 50 year old defenses at Oslo.


CA Blücher was sunk by a torpedo battery that was detected too late in their approach path.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 4:07:52 PM   
castor troy


Posts: 14330
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From: Austria
Status: offline 		This is a map showing where Blücher had to go through. Not really like it is looking alike around an atoll and thousand miles of open water.






Attachment (1)

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 4:27:29 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: castor troy

Guess the Blucher is the example I used when I was talking about Fjords and open sea. The Blucher is definetely NOT what you should use when you talk about "coast" defenses.




I was referring to the age of the weapons..., though if you look at Manila Bay or Vladivostok or Tokyo Bay or Palembang the example isn't far off either.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 4:30:19 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: janh

quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1
Look what happened to the Blucher when she took on 50 year old defenses at Oslo.


CA Blücher was sunk by a torpedo battery that was detected too late in their approach path.



A torpedo battery that was part of the integrated coast defense system, like a fixed minefield in other locations. And the old Krupp 11" inch guns already had her in trouble and slowing when the torpedoes were fired.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 4:57:20 PM   
RHoenig


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Status: offline 		While I agree that the greater accuracy of a fully integrated coastal defense fortress can be deadly, the Bluecher was a heavy cruiser with a max. armor of what 5 inch? and was hit by 11 inch guns. What has been reported here are two battleships with 10+ inches of armor, fired upon by max. 7 inch guns.
If the result of 7 inch guns against 10 inches of armor is the same as 11 inch guns against 5 inches of armor, why bother with 16 inchers on the BBs at all, the 8 inch CA guns will be quite sufficient and imagine the broadside, a BB could mount if outfitted with 8-inchers.

No, I´m not realy serious, but come on, 7-inch guns sinking BBs can´t possibly be right. Damaging them? Sure! Wreaking havoc with the superstructure? You bet! Sinking them? No way!

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 5:28:22 PM   
witpqs


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Status: offline 		My opponent had some BB's beat up at Darwin. Lots of hits, but I don't recall any listed as heavy fires or heavy damage. I assumed they were all upper works or non-penetrating hits, or at most penetrating non-vital areas. This thread is making me wonder.

I should say that I don't know what were the guns at Darwin - maybe they could do some damage, but the kind of thrashing you're talking about is a different story.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 5:33:30 PM   
Sardaukar


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Status: offline 		At some point Darwin had couple of 9.2" guns, but mainly 6" guns. 9.2" gun starts to be a bit dangerous to BB too.

< Message edited by Sardaukar -- 4/12/2010 5:38:44 PM >

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 6:31:31 PM   
freeboy

 

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From: Colorado
Status: offline 		again, not really justifyabkle in non TIGHT quarters, exceptions would be narrow points where ships MUST pas closs to land, certainly not small Islands surronded by sea..
The example in Norway bares this out... certainly this is obvious!

< Message edited by freeboy -- 4/12/2010 9:43:12 PM >

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 7:50:45 PM   
Dili

 

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Status: offline 		It is the composition of task force. It makes the battleships close too much.

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 9:44:29 PM   
freeboy

 

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From: Colorado
Status: offline 		no, not with the escorts do not atttack clicked.. I think my example above was all ca cl too

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RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 10:09:12 PM   
mike scholl 1

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: RHoenig

While I agree that the greater accuracy of a fully integrated coastal defense fortress can be deadly, the Bluecher was a heavy cruiser with a max. armor of what 5 inch? and was hit by 11 inch guns. What has been reported here are two battleships with 10+ inches of armor, fired upon by max. 7 inch guns.
If the result of 7 inch guns against 10 inches of armor is the same as 11 inch guns against 5 inches of armor, why bother with 16 inchers on the BBs at all, the 8 inch CA guns will be quite sufficient and imagine the broadside, a BB could mount if outfitted with 8-inchers.

No, I´m not realy serious, but come on, 7-inch guns sinking BBs can´t possibly be right. Damaging them? Sure! Wreaking havoc with the superstructure? You bet! Sinking them? No way!



Check out the Hiei. She faced nothing bigger than an 8' gun, and mostly 5" at First Guadalcanal..., an was left helpless and burning to be finished off by A/C the next morning. A 7" may or may not penetrate the main strake of the belt armor at close range..., but it will penetrate virtually everything else. And being on fire is the most dangerous thing that can happen to a ship. Hits are strange beasts. San Francisco was hit something like 80 times in the same battle as the Hiei, but in spite of a number of 14" hits was still sailing and fighting when it ended. Her luck had been extrordinary, as any of dozens of those hits could have been fatal in another location.

It's not just what a ship is hit by.., it's also where it is hit, coupled with an element of luck. In the example above, the BB's were hit 100+ times at medium-short range. That's 100+ chances to get the one "lucky" hit that finds a weak spot and detonates the secondary ready use magazine or something else vital. Ants can and do eat elephants..., when there are enough of them.

(in reply to RHoenig)
Post #: 27
RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 10:11:13 PM   
PzB74


Posts: 5076
Joined: 10/3/2000
From: No(r)way
Status: offline 		Some ports with uber fortifications like Singapore and Manila should never be assaulted...at least not before suppressing CD units with heavy air strikes.

Still, I'll add this Soviet port to the list over nasties

My bombardment TFs have usually gotten away with a few dents when tangling with coastal guns in places like Sydney.
- When I sent in a heavy cruiser TF the biggest ship engaged the defensive guns and received a dozen hits that caused 28 sys damage...wrecking much of the superstructure. Quite realistic.

_____________________________



"The problem in defense is how far you can go without destroying from within what you are trying to defend from without"
- Dwight D. Eisenhower

(in reply to freeboy)
Post #: 28
RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 11:22:19 PM   
Lecivius


Posts: 4845
Joined: 8/5/2007
From: Denver
Status: offline 		Hiei was sunk by aircraft after her steering contol was shot away due to infastructure damage.

Just pointing something out.

(in reply to PzB74)
Post #: 29
RE: CD fire issues - 4/12/2010 11:36:09 PM   
Bullwinkle58


Posts: 11302
Joined: 2/24/2009
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: mike scholl 1

It's not just what a ship is hit by.., it's also where it is hit, coupled with an element of luck. In the example above, the BB's were hit 100+ times at medium-short range. That's 100+ chances to get the one "lucky" hit that finds a weak spot and detonates the secondary ready use magazine or something else vital. Ants can and do eat elephants..., when there are enough of them.



I know you love your integrated FC theory in this and other threads, but it is ridiculous to assume any CO on a mobile platform would stay in range for 100 hits, with reload times considered, or how many salvoes would be needed to GET 100 hits on a maneuvering target. Analog FC systems with long base lines are wonderful, but a ship can be driven quite randomly while fleeing, and those fast course changes while the shells are in flight are sufficient to cause a miss. Rudders bite at a flank bell and a miss is a matter of a few yards.

Even if the CD is of sufficient size to start fires and penetrate superstructure, it is simply not believable that multiple battleships should be sunk by shore fire at places like Saipan (where one of mine took 153 hits in one 12-hour phase.) That's the way the code works, fine. But it's dumb to argue it could have happened. And we now have examples of it happening at Saipan, Milli, and this Soviet base. The CD code is out-of-kilter. It is what it is, and Allied players especially need to budget massive capital ship losses to take necessary, historic bases like Saipan, but you can't argue that it fits history, let alone physics.

_____________________________

The Moose

(in reply to mike scholl 1)
Post #: 30
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