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Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 8:10:53 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		Is there any hope whatsoever in getting a refund? I cant believe I paid $60+ for this

edit: well seeing i have the game already downloaded i guess prob not.. *sigh*

well i hope the updates make this playable. I can tell there is a decent (maybe even good/great) game hidden here but right now its a complete waste of time and money

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/12/2010 8:23:40 AM >
Post #: 1
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 1:50:20 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline 		Is it because of a bug or some design feature that you decide you don't really like the game?  Maybe someone here can help you out?

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 2
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 2:05:12 PM   
BigWolfChris


Posts: 634
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		Indeed, what reason do you not like the game?

If you just say you don't like it, no-one can help, and it will probably be a waste of money

If you say why, then such things could be explained, or maybe altered in the future

Though, personally I hope you're not a troll

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(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 3
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 8:36:19 PM   
drillerman


Posts: 455
Joined: 2/11/2010
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		I say Sigh, Tell me what bit you find unplayable. I have had some quite good games so far..............................................AND STILL NO CRASHES EVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

_____________________________

Huh?

(in reply to BigWolfChris)
Post #: 4
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 10:43:15 PM   
OberonDark

 

Posts: 64
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		Uh. You're doing something wrong if it's unplayable. Even if that means that you're leaving decisions to the AI, which can be considered "wrong". You won't get a refund, it's just not happening. Suck it up, try to enjoy it, or put it on your shelf.

Also, how do you end up paying $60 for it? It's $40 for digital download or $50 for physical/physical + digital. And then it's 5 bucks for digital river. Did you buy it from the shady guy on the street corner?

Now the sentimental part: When I first got R:TW, I thought it was complicated and annoying to play. I picked it up a few years later and was like, WOMG, and bought every total war game since. You might want to try it later after patches, which make an already playable game better.

(in reply to drillerman)
Post #: 5
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 10:55:49 PM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		I doubt these things are anything anybody can help me with. Most of them are just plain awful design decisions. If I AM mistaken with anything here then it's still pretty bad as they should be easily accessible (although I apologize up front then as i guess they would be excusable.. kinda). And bugs are inexcusable. Just because you can work around a bug doesn't make it any less terrible.

1. Why give components random names that are impossible to identify (without actually learning the whole tech tree by heart). It may seem super creative when you name something "Talassos AR5" or "MegaTron Z4"  but how about thinking about the PLAYER who has no freaking clue what that is supposed to be. I guess MegaTron is the better one since it has mega in it... This is problematic during both Ship design and ESPECIALLY during diplomatic trading. (even more so when your offered something for a crap load of cash). During trading at least it tells you what kind of component it is (wow) but not the level. When your offered something.. well you get to guess. Would right clicking on the object to get some info be to much to ask? Would adding some sort of description to the name be possible like "Shields 4".. Or allow the player to hover the mouse over the item to at least get the research type/level? It doesnt help that the manual doesnt even have a list..

2. Automation vs Micromanagement.. Yeah.. I like how the automation is advertised as if it were something special but really all it does if give you the choice between "MANAGE EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF X" or  "YOU GET TO DEAL WITH EVERY LITTLE INANE DETAIL OF X" There just arn't enough options. Not that it should be like Space Empires V where deciding what gets automated is a game in itself but whats the big deal? Either you let the game play itself or you manage every inane detail. Basically Automation vs Non-Automation does not work seamlessly... See next complaint:

3. Micromanagement.. This is where my forum nick comes from.. For a game that advertises the automation this is way beyond acceptable.. So If I want to build a station somewhere this is what i have to do:

I have to find a constructor ship (yes i know there is a menu for this).. Leave the selection menu.. send it to its destination to build. (maybe even have to zoom in to set it exactly where it should go)... wait for it to get half there.. learn that it has run out of fuel... tell it to refuel at the next refueling station watch it IGNORE the resupply station that is right next to it and zoom off to some other system.. refuel... tell it to go build that damn station... repeat. All the while im being attacked constantly by pirates and whatnot :rolleyes: Also when this retard of a constructor is finished with its cue it is no longer set to automatic. So if i should forget about it (while doing the same with some other constructor) well.. too bad.. Its a waste of a ship/maintenance

Let me show you an alternative method that a sane game would use:

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.

If your going to sucker me into paying 60 dollars by advertising this oh so great automation at least make it worthwhile..

4. Several other things including: My ships entering enemy territory for reasons like refuiling.. and a war erupting because of it, The hassle of finding and placing the correct ships into a fleet... bla bla and so on and so on

Thats just a sample of what is really getting to me. Frankly I dont see why i should even be wasting my time typing this anymore as ill prob get a lot of fanboys giving me worthless "explanations" or workarounds because they cant admit that a game they like is subpar.

I'm still giving this a chance.. because as said it seems like it could be a decent game (And because I paid 65 dollars..). Of course that means if i start getting into it a bit ill prob notice other things like: Your empire falling apart once you hit a certain size because of rebellions that always happen (read about that one), prob some terrible economic balance, AI is prob retarded (it already seems very random using diplomacy...), Memory leaks (although i guess the patches so far have helped there). Maybe I sound very unfairly pessimistic but the game is taking on this pattern.. So i have no reason to think otherwise.

Well.. I've read that Matrix Games is known to release unfinished products so MAYBE the patches will fix this game up. I'm hoping so.


(in reply to drillerman)
Post #: 6
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/12/2010 11:32:04 PM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: OberonDark

Uh. You're doing something wrong if it's unplayable.



Yes I'm losing patience with terrible design. My bad

(in reply to OberonDark)
Post #: 7
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 12:07:29 AM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

I doubt these things are anything anybody can help me with. Most of them are just plain awful design decisions. If I AM mistaken with anything here then it's still pretty bad as they should be easily accessible (although I apologize up front then as i guess they would be excusable.. kinda). And bugs are inexcusable. Just because you can work around a bug doesn't make it any less terrible.

1. Why give components random names that are impossible to identify (without actually learning the whole tech tree by heart). It may seem super creative when you name something "Talassos AR5" or "MegaTron Z4"  but how about thinking about the PLAYER who has no freaking clue what that is supposed to be. I guess MegaTron is the better one since it has mega in it... This is problematic during both Ship design and ESPECIALLY during diplomatic trading. (even more so when your offered something for a crap load of cash). During trading at least it tells you what kind of component it is (wow) but not the level. When your offered something.. well you get to guess. Would right clicking on the object to get some info be to much to ask? Would adding some sort of description to the name be possible like "Shields 4".. Or allow the player to hover the mouse over the item to at least get the research type/level? It doesnt help that the manual doesnt even have a list..

2. Automation vs Micromanagement.. Yeah.. I like how the automation is advertised as if it were something special but really all it does if give you the choice between "MANAGE EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF X" or  "YOU GET TO DEAL WITH EVERY LITTLE INANE DETAIL OF X" There just arn't enough options. Not that it should be like Space Empires V where deciding what gets automated is a game in itself but whats the big deal? Either you let the game play itself or you manage every inane detail. Basically Automation vs Non-Automation does not work seamlessly... See next complaint:

3. Micromanagement.. This is where my forum nick comes from.. For a game that advertises the automation this is way beyond acceptable.. So If I want to build a station somewhere this is what i have to do:

I have to find a constructor ship (yes i know there is a menu for this).. Leave the selection menu.. send it to its destination to build. (maybe even have to zoom in to set it exactly where it should go)... wait for it to get half there.. learn that it has run out of fuel... tell it to refuel at the next refueling station watch it IGNORE the resupply station that is right next to it and zoom off to some other system.. refuel... tell it to go build that damn station... repeat. All the while im being attacked constantly by pirates and whatnot :rolleyes: Also when this retard of a constructor is finished with its cue it is no longer set to automatic. So if i should forget about it (while doing the same with some other constructor) well.. too bad.. Its a waste of a ship/maintenance

Let me show you an alternative method that a sane game would use:

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.

If your going to sucker me into paying 60 dollars by advertising this oh so great automation at least make it worthwhile..

4. Several other things including: My ships entering enemy territory for reasons like refuiling.. and a war erupting because of it, The hassle of finding and placing the correct ships into a fleet... bla bla and so on and so on

Thats just a sample of what is really getting to me. Frankly I dont see why i should even be wasting my time typing this anymore as ill prob get a lot of fanboys giving me worthless "explanations" or workarounds because they cant admit that a game they like is subpar.

I'm still giving this a chance.. because as said it seems like it could be a decent game (And because I paid 65 dollars..). Of course that means if i start getting into it a bit ill prob notice other things like: Your empire falling apart once you hit a certain size because of rebellions that always happen (read about that one), prob some terrible economic balance, AI is prob retarded (it already seems very random using diplomacy...), Memory leaks (although i guess the patches so far have helped there). Maybe I sound very unfairly pessimistic but the game is taking on this pattern.. So i have no reason to think otherwise.

Well.. I've read that Matrix Games is known to release unfinished products so MAYBE the patches will fix this game up. I'm hoping so.



Wow $65? You must be in a place with a very poor exchange rate. Sorry to hear that, I'd probably want my money back too! :)

Regarding the rest, well, what is there to say that you just have a fundamental disagreement with the vision of the game. I can't help you because I don't find anything you say as a real problem however you present a couple good ideas. Hope you stick with it. Good luck.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 8
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 12:41:10 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		well its 65$ if you count the physical copy + shipping (normal) + download insurance.

And no i dont really think i have a problem with the vision of the game. In fact i think thats what i actually like! :)

I mean the "not being able to identify technology on the go" thing should be a generic function found in any game. I seriously doubt its part of the games vision to make it a guessing game ;)

I know i come off as an ass but its more towards the fact that the game seems rushed. not the designers/game in general


(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 9
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 12:48:30 AM   
HsojVvad

 

Posts: 1036
Joined: 3/24/2010
Status: offline 		You have very valid points why you do not like the game. Yes there is a very steep learning curve to the game. What you complain about the names of the components, I like it. I hated in lots of 4X games, it's lazers 1, next tech is lazer 2, next tech is lazers 3. I like the different names, means the creators put some thought into it. Now you have a very valid point that itn's not implimented very well. I hate when a race comes to me and wants me to sell something and I have no idea what it is. It would be nice if you could click on the name and the galactopedia would open up and explain what it is.

I have alot of complaints about the game as well, but Matrix and CodeForce are addressing the issues as quick as they can. I would strongly suggest that if you are going to try and have ago with this game, that you go into the Disntant World forum, and go to the sticky and put in your wish list. It dosn't matter if it was said before, voice your concerns. Maybe they will be addressed in a patch, or if you have some great ideas, that are not buggy, then they can be implemented in an update or expasion pack.

If you don't voice all your concerns, then they can't be addressed. Erik and Elliot are doing their best to fix what they can. In less than 2 weeks they released 3 patches to help people with their concerns. A new beta patch should be coming out at the end of the week if I am not mistaken so try it out.

You did update to the latest patch have you? I don't think they address your problems, but I think 1.04 might. Check out the sticky on what they plan to do, see if you like anything in there as well.

Also where do you see the developers working so close to us and working to address our problems or complaints. Yes it's inexcusable for a buggy game, but I never seen 2 guys work so hard to fix this game and make most people happy.

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 10
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 12:55:25 AM   
Habadacus

 

Posts: 9
Joined: 3/31/2010
Status: offline 		I am less disappointed with my purchase that you are, Sigh. I don't think that makes me a fanboy, and I agree with you that workarounds are not fun, because that's not you playing the game, but the game playing you. Still, I'm very optimistic, because despite the headache-inducing font, needlessly complicated ship design/upgrade layout, fuel micro hell, etc., I still find myself enjoying the game and wishing for more. The game came out only a few weeks ago and they've since improved it a lot, and have already announced plans for the next update.

This tells me they give half a crap about their fans/customers and don't intend to walk away from their project unlike some PC developers I could think of. They know they can't please everyone, but I only see the game getting better, and I find myself intrigued with it now. Most games these days that don't grab me I just shelve, but the problems with this one really bother me because it's so close to being the premier space 4X. I'm happy to support their cause with my $40, even though every game I've played so far has completely devolved into madness and anarchy mid to late game.

Not a workaround, but try this for fun: Start a 400 star game on a ring map. Set yourself to start in the core. Give yourself an excellent world and advanced tech (lvl 3). Manually add a few races set to start far away from you so they'll start in the ring. Give them excellent worlds, starting colonies and lvl 2 tech. Set max pirates and aliens and let the aliens start new empires. It's like playing MOO from the Masters of Orion's perspective. It gives you time to build up and figure out what resources are coming from where, lots of pirates to raise your rep, and the other races are far away and easier to not piss off. Also, try playing the Haakonen or whatever those fish looking guys are called. They start out with the mega-fuel cell, which helps reduce a lot of the annoying gas station attendant duties in the early game. Plus they get an economy bonus and cheaper fleet maintenance, which is just great.

I've made it pretty far along with that set up.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 11
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 2:20:15 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		Heh well im not looking for a way to make the game easier.. in fact im scared that it will become too easy (ive been playing this stuff since civ1/moo1/MOM). I just dont want it to become a challenge because of design issues :P

As said ill be keeping an eye out for the patches. If they can just reduce/nullify some of the aggravating aspects im sure the game will be good.

(in reply to Habadacus)
Post #: 12
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 3:22:50 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		[edit]: nevermind ill just keep it to myself and hope it gets better ^^

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/13/2010 3:27:14 AM >

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 13
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 10:44:27 AM   
aVoided

 

Posts: 14
Joined: 4/5/2010
Status: offline 		I some what sympathize with the OP. The game is good and I do have hope for it, (key word hope) but at it's price there is no reason we should be beta testing, at 40-60$ a copy. I feel a bit ripped off, esspecialy when I look at the HUGE row of games this company has on it's header... you would think that means *experienced*. (or over worked?? lol)

All I can say is if I wanted to beta test these games I would apply for it as a volunteer not pay for it. I Pay for a finished product. Sadly as in this case we are forced into this role here. This would be one of the first PC games in a LONG time I have bought fresh off of release and only reinforces (in my view) why pc gamming is losing to the console (unfrotunatly). It is why people like me (I'm sure there is more) who haven't bought a game fresh off the shelf for a pc in YEARS (the last game I bought off the shelf was Civ IV) , and wait for most games to be at least 6 months to a year old when it comes to pc games to purchase them.

Ask yourself this question out loud :

How many patches does the average pc game today, take before it has a some what finished feel to it like it should be at release with a price tag of 40-65$ .. or even higher..

1? 2? 3? 5? 10? I would say most games for pc these days is a minimum of 3 to 5 patches to start feeling like something that is worthy of a finished feel, worth a full price new release tag of 40-60$ yet by the time I buy it for this very reason, it's either A) used B) reduced c) in the bargain bin. In which almost all of these cases is next to zero revenue for a game if not even a loss... At this point I will compliment the devs on thier 2 patches is just a couple weeks. Some buggy releases take up to a month or even more before they see thier first patch. Kudos here..

A lot of the bugs currently are very silly for a 4x managment game. The amount of bugs in this one along with the *types* of bugs makes me wonder if there was any internal testing at all... Did no devs play this game for an extended period of time in development to realize ships are not retrofitting? How about attacking abandoned ships crashing the game. All these issues with automated (and use of the upgrade button on ship fitting) did no dev ever try to customize or upgrade a ship in thier testing? How about the sheer amount of clicking involved with hundreds of ships. 500+ military ships in a game and you need to click each one, one ata time to retrofit (if it even worked at all). Issuing mass orders from simple ship lists... non existant. Fine you are slowly patching this now, but did we really have to pay and tell you ourselves these issues. I truly do not believe the devs themselves have even played thier own game, at least for an extended period of of time, much less at least hired some internal testers.

I have since shelved the game and will pop back in, in a few weeks, and see how it is once I see v1.06.. or higher.. I love the style of it and it has potential but once you hit 300+ military ships the game becomes a chore. (the automation is worthless imo)





Want to ignore my wall of text just read this paragraph

So to conclude my rant. I agree with both sides. We have what could be a great game. We all know games have bugs, but the amount of them on RELEASE is just ridiculous in a lot of games. It's a general practise in the gamming industry now that we as the consumer / gamer have become an ocean of free game testers to developers and producers releasing sub standard and untested games RELYING on those pre-orders and new release customers to do thier testing work for them. It's obviously a trend that's increasing A LOT. Sadly most of the gamers today accept this and in most cases will defend a developer for this practise. It's a sad age in the infancy of gamming...



< Message edited by aVoided -- 4/13/2010 11:18:12 AM >

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 14
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 11:28:41 AM   
drillerman


Posts: 455
Joined: 2/11/2010
From: Blighty
Status: offline 		Sigh,

I do know how you feel. I bought games on the back of positive forum posts etc, and found it is just not my thing and could not understand what the fuss was about. However, in the case of DW I am willing to put up with some of these things because I enjoy the whole concept of DW and assume because it is Matrix is WILL get better!!

Sorry you don't like the game, it is disappointing for someone when this happens.

_____________________________

Huh?

(in reply to aVoided)
Post #: 15
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 12:30:41 PM   
Anthropoid


Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
Status: offline 		Hey Sigh, I can see how some of the game elements you describe could be frustrating the first time you get into one of these types of games. But the idea is that it is a challenge and a gradual learning of a "new ecology." It is not just sit down and veg out kind of game where you don't have to learn. If you think of it that way, consider it a long term investment. It took me about 3 years with War in the Pacific (a similarly steep-learning curve game) before I really 'mastered' it against the AI.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to drillerman)
Post #: 16
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/13/2010 12:49:26 PM   
Joram

 

Posts: 3198
Joined: 7/15/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

well its 65$ if you count the physical copy + shipping (normal) + download insurance.

And no i dont really think i have a problem with the vision of the game. In fact i think thats what i actually like! :)

I mean the "not being able to identify technology on the go" thing should be a generic function found in any game. I seriously doubt its part of the games vision to make it a guessing game ;)

I know i come off as an ass but its more towards the fact that the game seems rushed. not the designers/game in general





Well, that's good that you like the vision then because the issues in front of you can be addressed. I agree the GUI needs some work and you have a good idea there.

The developers are pretty responsive so while I understand it's not your job to do this, you're not a beta tester after all, writing out your ideas may result in some changes.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 17
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 4:47:30 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		The game should be playable before its released. There is NO argument against this.

Bugs happen (im a developer myself ;) ) but the ones that occur after release should be hidden bugs that are hard to spot during beta testing. This game feels like it hasnt even been beta tested.

What im wondering is if the developers are at fault or if matrix force-rushed them.

Either way its inexcusable.

Yes I have already ranted enough probably. Well sorry right now its the only real satisfaction i can get out of this mess

(in reply to Joram)
Post #: 18
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 5:58:44 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		 You need to have some faith. I have not bought a game from anyone but Matrix in about 4 years, I own about 15 titles from them. Matrix does not rush their devs and they have the best support I have ever seen from a game company/publisher.

This game is very playable right out of the box. Granted, it has it's quirks, but these will be smoothed out with some time.  I understand your frustration, but trust us (even though we are just internet peeps). Those of us that have been around Matrix a long time are here for a reason. The us-surpassed support for the games they publish.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 19
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 6:09:12 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		everybody's so understanding it almost makes me feel bad lol

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 20
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 6:15:59 AM   
2ndACR


Posts: 5665
Joined: 8/31/2003
From: Irving,Tx
Status: offline 		 Well, flaming back will get neither of us anywhere. I went thru the same thing as you with MOO3. And that was vaporware within about 1 month. Have yet to see a Matrix title go down that road. Keep the faith.

MOO3 experience is the reason I have stuck to Matrix titles.

< Message edited by 2ndACR -- 4/14/2010 6:17:07 AM >

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 21
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 6:26:28 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		Well I dont feel that past titles justify anything. I could also name games that weren't this buggy to begin with ;)

It IS great that the developers are at least fixing things though. Ill give them that. Its just that this game (all matrix games) are EXTREMELY expensive.. so I want TOP quality from the get go. Im living on a budget right now.

Btw: I love the games vision and im having fun despite it being (in my eyes) unplayable.  Ive found ways to kind of work around some of the "quirks" (that are in my eyes abominable constructs from the depths of hell) and am enjoying alot of the game play.

It really needs a lot of ironing out though. I have fun for about 30 mins and a bug pops up that destroys the gameplay for me. Or my ship fly's into a black hole ;)

Not to mention i havnt played long enough to see the balance issues ;)



< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/14/2010 6:28:45 AM >

(in reply to 2ndACR)
Post #: 22
Question - 4/14/2010 11:13:39 AM   
hermanhum


Posts: 2209
Joined: 9/21/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

Well I dont feel that past titles justify anything. I could also name games that weren't this buggy to begin with ;)
For the sake of comparison and perspective, could you name some of those titles that you felt met with your expectations?

_____________________________


(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 23
RE: Question - 4/14/2010 11:53:54 AM   
Sigh

 

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
Status: offline 		Ok I was about to name a bunch of commercial titles and then remembered "AI Wars". Single Programmer.. Same Scope... (Kinda)- Similar Gameplay.... It Works. (even done in the same language i think :P)

I never played the very first version and im sure there were some "quirks" but im almost positive it wasnt broken like this (currently) is.

And heres the kicker: IT COST 20$ WHEN IT CAME OUT (15 now) and gets the same support that you guys claim Matrix gives.

If Distant Worlds cost 20$ i would be giving suggestions and naming bugs. Not ranting. But sorry its triple the price for 10 times the frustration.

I do like distant worlds gameplay more though (when it works) but thats not the point (im sure others like AI Wars more.. Its a good game). The point is simply: If your going to charge me 60$ then i want a working title. I can deal with bugs... But do i want to babysit my fleet that's getting shredded by a single pirate because it wont fire back? NO i don't :P

No this isnt supposed to be advertisement for another game (i read the rules). But i think its a perfect example.



For the record i wouldn't refund this now given the chance.. i want to see how it turns out after the next billion patches

edit: Ohhhhhhhhh it also had a DEMO. You know those things that let you test a game before you buy it? Thats also i reason i got (am) overly mad. I just feel cheated.

edit: (in fact i reaaaaaaly keep thinking that this game was inspired by AI wars ;) very similar in some aspects ^^. Not that that is a bad thing. I do the same when thinking of ideas for my projects :P Could just be coincidence though)

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/14/2010 12:00:59 PM >

(in reply to hermanhum)
Post #: 24
RE: Question - 4/14/2010 12:59:23 PM   
HsojVvad

 

Posts: 1036
Joined: 3/24/2010
Status: offline 		Somebody needs to complain. I have been complaining about this for the last 10 years and more. A game should never be patched after release except for problems becauae of different machine configurations. But for some reason the computer gaming industry got lucky and it's an accepted practice to release game early and patch later. I am not saying this is the case for DW, but it happened to my favorite game series. MOO 3 is a perfect example of game being released early and had to be patched later and then abandoned even when promised more would be done. Also Activisions, Call 2 Power 1 and 2. I love those games, but there is no excuse as to why those games were buggy on release.

Even Civ IV was a crappy product on release. It took a lot of patches to make that game fun and work. Firaxis lied about the game specs for the game to run. At least they made patchs to make the game run even though I had the recomended spec, not minimum specs. No excuse for this at all. Shamelessly, we are all to blame for accepting this kind of behaviour. I guess that is why I buy mostly console games now. I am tired of buying a game now and patching later. At least with DW, I found it very playable as soon as it "came out of the box". Ok now box, but as soon as I installed it, version 1.00 is very playable.


(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 25
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 1:44:20 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

1. Why give components random names that are impossible to identify (without actually learning the whole tech tree by heart). It may seem super creative when you name something "Talassos AR5" or "MegaTron Z4" but how about thinking about the PLAYER who has no freaking clue what that is supposed to be.
Well, to be fair, it's not a real problem in this game, because every new technolergy that isn't a racial special is always an upgrade, and if it wasn't an upgrade, you couldn't be offered it in a trade. So...GIMME! The Megatron one is actually the only "trap".

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.
This would be awfully convenient for those cases where you really don't care who does it as long as someone does. Rather than having to give orders on a unit level, it would be nice to handle things in a format not unlike Majesty: Build this, kill that, check this thing out, etc., without really caring WHO does it. For instance, if I see a pirate, I can say, "Kill this thing", and the game will automatically find a nearby warship to take up this task, without my having to stop, find out which warship is in range and free, find out that he needs more fuel first, get fuel, find out that the pirate has left by that point...it would be nice to just be able to say, "Kill this thing", and someone appropriate will get on it at the next available opportunity. If I WANT to order a specific ship to do a specific thing, I can still do that, but let's face it, most of the time, you don't really care, you just want it dead.

As for buying anything, always ignore any positive comments you see. Anything positive you see is just shills who are trying to sell the product, nothing more than lies and propaganda, so ignore them and go straight for the negative comments. Understanding that there is no such thing as "good", only "less bad", is the first step towards enlightenment. Anytime I see a review that has nothing bad to say, I ignore it as worthless shill propaganda. Just as there is really no such thing as "cold", only the absence of heat, there is no such thing as "good", only the absence of suck.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 4/14/2010 1:46:41 PM >

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 26
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 2:32:59 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Hello Sigh,

I'm sorry you were disappointed with your experience. I think we can agree that how much someone likes or dislikes a game is a subjective, rather than objective thing. This is why we don't offer refunds for disliking a game, though we will refund if we can't get the game to work on your system.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh 1. Why give components random names that are impossible to identify (without actually learning the whole tech tree by heart). It may seem super creative when you name something "Talassos AR5" or "MegaTron Z4"  but how about thinking about the PLAYER who has no freaking clue what that is supposed to be. I guess MegaTron is the better one since it has mega in it... This is problematic during both Ship design and ESPECIALLY during diplomatic trading. (even more so when your offered something for a crap load of cash). During trading at least it tells you what kind of component it is (wow) but not the level. When your offered something.. well you get to guess. Would right clicking on the object to get some info be to much to ask? Would adding some sort of description to the name be possible like "Shields 4".. Or allow the player to hover the mouse over the item to at least get the research type/level? It doesnt help that the manual doesnt even have a list..


It's very easy to view the component details during ship design. Just click on the component guide button. I agree with you on Diplomacy and we plan to add a way to get tech info during a diplomacy offer. In my book these are not severe issues, but I understand that for your playstyle, they are a source of frustration.

Including some kind of documented list in the future is also a good idea and we'll plan to do that.

quote:

2. Automation vs Micromanagement.. Yeah.. I like how the automation is advertised as if it were something special but really all it does if give you the choice between "MANAGE EVERY SINGLE ASPECT OF X" or  "YOU GET TO DEAL WITH EVERY LITTLE INANE DETAIL OF X" There just arn't enough options. Not that it should be like Space Empires V where deciding what gets automated is a game in itself but whats the big deal? Either you let the game play itself or you manage every inane detail. Basically Automation vs Non-Automation does not work seamlessly... See next complaint:


I have a tough time figuring out what you are looking for here. To address your comment specifically, you actually have "Manual", "Automated" and "Suggest" for many of the options, so there is a middle ground between running everything and automating everything. Since you can turn the automation on and off or set it to suggest for each area individually, there's a lot of flexibility over what you want to automate, down to the individual ship level.

Most of the feedback we've received has been extremely positive on the automation - there are things that can still be improved and tweaked, but you seem to have a problem with the fundamental implementation rather than just a few parts of it, which is the first such complaint I've seen.

Since I disagree with you fairly completely on this point, I'd like to know how you would suggest we improve it. I accept that you don't think we did a good job on this, but I'm not clear on what you think we should have done instead.

quote:

3. Micromanagement.. This is where my forum nick comes from.. For a game that advertises the automation this is way beyond acceptable.. So If I want to build a station somewhere this is what i have to do:

I have to find a constructor ship (yes i know there is a menu for this).. Leave the selection menu.. send it to its destination to build. (maybe even have to zoom in to set it exactly where it should go)... wait for it to get half there.. learn that it has run out of fuel... tell it to refuel at the next refueling station watch it IGNORE the resupply station that is right next to it and zoom off to some other system.. refuel... tell it to go build that damn station... repeat. All the while im being attacked constantly by pirates and whatnot :rolleyes: Also when this retard of a constructor is finished with its cue it is no longer set to automatic. So if i should forget about it (while doing the same with some other constructor) well.. too bad.. Its a waste of a ship/maintenance


This example tells me that you're not really using the game as intended. All you really need to do is open the expansion planner, pick the planet/moon/asteroid you want to mine and click on the "queue construction ship" button for that. Your automated construction ship will go there and there's a good chance if you have enough Escorts and Frigates that it will get an automated Escort to ward off pirates or other threats. If it's automated, it will take care of its own fuel and gather up the resources it needs, all without bothering you. It will also stay on automatic after it's finished, it will not become manual unless you manually give it orders.

quote:

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.


That's exactly how it works for me, using the Expansion Planner.

quote:

If your going to sucker me into paying 60 dollars by advertising this oh so great automation at least make it worthwhile..


As a counter-suggestion, perhaps you should try asking a few more questions before making up your mind about the game?

quote:

4. Several other things including: My ships entering enemy territory for reasons like refuiling.. and a war erupting because of it, The hassle of finding and placing the correct ships into a fleet... bla bla and so on and so on


I've never had a war erupt because of that. The ship trespass issue is generally a very minor hit. I'm guessing this empire was already quite upset with you for other reasons and happened to declare war when you were trespassing.

Finding ships and putting them in a fleet is very easy using the sortable Ships screen where you can click-select multiple ships and add them all to a fleet with one more click, then use the Fleet screen to tell them to refuel which will assemble them in one location.

quote:

Thats just a sample of what is really getting to me. Frankly I dont see why i should even be wasting my time typing this anymore as ill prob get a lot of fanboys giving me worthless "explanations" or workarounds because they cant admit that a game they like is subpar.


This is quite an attitude. I respect that you are frustrated, but from what you describe so far I don't think you've actually figured out everything that the game can and does do to make your life easier and reduce your frustration. While we are always willing to make improvements in future updates, the quickest help I can offer is to point out when the game already does something that you're looking for.

quote:

I'm still giving this a chance.. because as said it seems like it could be a decent game (And because I paid 65 dollars..). Of course that means if i start getting into it a bit ill prob notice other things like: Your empire falling apart once you hit a certain size because of rebellions that always happen (read about that one)


Don't believe everything you read - size alone does not cause any empires to fall apart. There are many things that can cause that, but simple size is not one.

quote:

, prob some terrible economic balance, AI is prob retarded (it already seems very random using diplomacy...), Memory leaks (although i guess the patches so far have helped there). Maybe I sound very unfairly pessimistic but the game is taking on this pattern.. So i have no reason to think otherwise.


I think this is glass half-empty/half-full issue. You are reading forum threads and gathering only negative impressions while apparently missing all the positive ones. I'm seeing a different pattern - issues are reported and they are fixed, improvements are made and overall the game continues to improve rapidly. Most customers are happy with DW and getting happier, from what I can see.

quote:

Well.. I've read that Matrix Games is known to release unfinished products so MAYBE the patches will fix this game up. I'm hoping so.


This seems like a gratuitous dig to me. It's definitely in our definition of non-constructive criticism, or "bashing" since you provide nothing to backup your claim. In my opinion, we do better than the majority of game companies in terms of QA on our product. We take responsibility for any issues that get through to release and do our best to work with the developer to quickly resolve them. We have games that have received post-release improvements up to five years after release, not because they were unfinished but because of the fact that we support our community as much as our developers.

Regards,

- Erik

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Sigh)
Post #: 27
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 3:15:07 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'm sorry you were disappointed with your experience. I think we can agree that how much someone likes or dislikes a game is a subjective, rather than objective thing. This is why we don't offer refunds for disliking a game, though we will refund if we can't get the game to work on your system.
Well, that is one policy, an understandable one. Others offer a policy in which any cause for dissatisfaction with a product is grounds for a refund, generally in the belief that people generally do not ask for refunds unless the product is unusable, as individually defective items are typically replaced rather than refunded.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

This example tells me that you're not really using the game as intended. All you really need to do is open the expansion planner, pick the planet/moon/asteroid you want to mine and click on the "queue construction ship" button for that.
The expansion planner is a good way of doing so, but tends to offer no information about the actual abundance of a resource, so you may have just queued a constructor to construct a mining station on a place with 20% yield, and tends to provide little context as to where it is or what the environment there is like, so you probably just sent a construction ship to die at the hands of 50 Kaltors. There is also the tendency of the expansion planner to queue orders on the nearest construction ship, so ONE construction ship receives a dozen orders while the rest are left totally idle after their current task finishes. Lastly, the system is ineffectual for queuing non-mining bases, so if you wanted to build resorts, or defensive emplacements, all of the above concerns become compounded.

Using the Expansion Planner for colonizing shares similar flaws: The orders are queued on the nearest colony regardless of construction rates or queue-fullness, so most likely a half dozen colony ships are queued to be produced at some tiny new colony and will never complete within a reasonable timeframe. WORST OF ALL, the colony ships queued are not even your actual colony ship, but some made-up design that you do not want and often costs more than the design you HAVE made, or is missing critical features that will prevent it from safely reaching its destination.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
quote:

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.


That's exactly how it works for me, using the Expansion Planner.
Well, in order to use this functionality, even under optimal conditions, requires that you go into the expansion planner, a lengthy and often incomplete list, locate a planet with an inscrutable name you cannot remember, and then pick it out of the list. Most likely the user in question has spotted the desired planet visually, by seeing it as he follows the progress of an explorer ship or finding it next to one of his colonies. Given that mineable objects typically have utterly inscrutable names like AA####, having to try to find it again in a list of hundreds of similarly indecipherable objects is not exactly convenient. And, of course, there are all the attendant caveats of order-queuing, such as that orders are not balanced between constructors. If the Order Queue were maintained in a constructor-independent manner, as an empire-level "to do" list, instead of a per-ship queue, this would probably not happen.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I've never had a war erupt because of that. The ship trespass issue is generally a very minor hit.
Surely you jest. The ship trespass issue is probably the single largest factor to negative diplomatic relationships. I have seen values like -80 "your ships and colonies violate our space". This is not a "minor" hit, this is often the single largest grievance on the list. The visibility of the issue is further exacerbated by the fact that the AI treats this grievance in a manner which the human player is unable to easily grasp: Imagine that the AI does this to you: How offended are you? Probably not very. Do you even notice? Probably not. As a result, the human sees the AI as taking disproportionate offense at a "transgression" that the human is frequently completely unaware of, even if the AI were doing it to them, and therefore perceives the AI as being unreasonable.

Meanwhile, the AI gleefully performs the highly offensive act of colonizing in the human's back yard (which the game helpfully does nothing to inform you about, so you can't even SEE it happening until it is too late). If the human player is going to be able to perform some transgression that the AI is going to get bent out of shape over, the game should helpfully inform you when the AI is doing that to you, so you can share in the irritation and be offended as well, thus making the AI's behavior seem more reasonable and understandable, or spam the crap out of your beta testers, so that they will complain about the constant popups and cause you to re-evaluate whether this is really all that offensive, as your testers will complain about the game nagging them about petty crap they don't care about. If your testers find the notification of the offense more annoying than the offense itself, the alleged offense probably should not be considered all that offensive.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 28
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 3:29:47 PM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman Well, that is one policy, an understandable one. Others offer a policy in which any cause for dissatisfaction with a product is grounds for a refund, generally in the belief that people generally do not ask for refunds unless the product is unusable, as individually defective items are typically replaced rather than refunded.


I'm not aware of any company with digital download games that offers a better policy. Take movies as another example - if the movie you paid to see is shown on time and without technical glitches, you don't get your money back if you didn't like the plot.

quote:

The expansion planner is a good way of doing so, but tends to offer no information about the actual abundance of a resource, so you may have just queued a constructor to construct a mining station on a place with 20% yield, and tends to provide little context as to where it is or what the environment there is like, so you probably just sent a construction ship to die at the hands of 50 Kaltors. There is also the tendency of the expansion planner to queue orders on the nearest construction ship, so ONE construction ship receives a dozen orders while the rest are left totally idle after their current task finishes. Lastly, the system is ineffectual for queuing non-mining bases, so if you wanted to build resorts, or defensive emplacements, all of the above concerns become compounded.


Actually, if you click on the planet in the expansion planner and click on "Select Potential Colony" or "Select Resource Target" you can see the abundance details without leaving the Expansion Planner.

Also, the display on top shows you which resources you currently do and don't have sources for and what your stocks are.

Regarding non-mining bases, those are generally built rarely enough that I haven't found it to be any issue to go to a planet and build from there, either from the map or from the colonies or construction yard screen, or to pick a construction ship and tell it where to build a resort or research base. Similarly, you can just leave a constructor automated or leave "Suggest" on and such bases will be built automatically or you will be asked if you'd like to build one.

quote:

Using the Expansion Planner for colonizing shares similar flaws: The orders are queued on the nearest colony regardless of construction rates or queue-fullness, so most likely a half dozen colony ships are queued to be produced at some tiny new colony and will never complete within a reasonable timeframe. WORST OF ALL, the colony ships queued are not even your actual colony ship, but some made-up design that you do not want and often costs more than the design you HAVE made, or is missing critical features that will prevent it from safely reaching its destination.


Regarding where colony ships are built, there is an issue that can cause too many to be queued at a single planet. We're planning to tweak that. The second part, I have no idea what you are referencing there. If you are seeing an issue there, can you please post it in a new thread?

quote:

Well, in order to use this functionality, even under optimal conditions, requires that you go into the expansion planner, a lengthy and often incomplete list, locate a planet with an inscrutable name you cannot remember, and then pick it out of the list.


I have to say that having played through entire games using the Expansion Planner, your characterization of how difficult it is just really doesn't make any sense to me.

quote:

Most likely the user in question has spotted the desired planet visually, by seeing it as he follows the progress of an explorer ship or finding it next to one of his colonies.


I usually don't try to find such things visually. I do use the expansion planner. I filter by resource and sort by distance, then click on each one so that the map in the expansion planner shows me where it is. If I want to check abundance, I use the Select button in the expansion planner to check that. It's a one stop shop for me.

If I do wander upon it on the map, I can either sort by name in the expansion planner or right click on the planet and queue a mission from there without an issue.

quote:

course, there are all the attendant caveats of order-queuing, such as that orders are not balanced between constructors. If the Order Queue were maintained in a constructor-independent manner, as an empire-level "to do" list, instead of a per-ship queue, this would probably not happen.


I find they are pretty well balanced across constructors actually, but I can see the value in an empire-level queue. Good suggestion, can you please put it in the Master Wishlist as well?

quote:

Surely you jest. The ship trespass issue is probably the single largest factor to negative diplomatic relationships. I have seen values like -80 "your ships and colonies violate our space".


That's because of the colonies, not because a ship or fleet briefly trespasses. I'm not joking, give it a try when you have no colonies sharing another empire's system.

quote:

Meanwhile, the AI gleefully performs the highly offensive act of colonizing in the human's back yard (which the game helpfully does nothing to inform you about, so you can't even SEE it happening until it is too late). If the human player is going to be able to perform some transgression that the AI is going to get bent out of shape over, the game should helpfully inform you when the AI is doing that to you, so you can share in the irritation and be offended as well, thus making the AI's behavior seem more reasonable and understandable


That's actually what the listed modifiers in the diplomacy screen are intended to communicate, so that you know what's bothering each AI empire. You may also note that on our list of improvements for the next update are some tweaks on how the AI deals with human players in this regard.

Regards,

- Erik



_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC



For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Fishman)
Post #: 29
RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 3:53:08 PM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I'm not aware of any company with digital download games that offers a better policy.
Not generally offered with games, no, although applications frequently offer a money-back guarantee for any dissatisfaction with the product. You would think that the policy would be offered more frequently for digital downloads than non, since you don't have to deal with a physical product return and restocking. Still, not really a complaint, just a point of note.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Actually, if you click on the planet in the expansion planner and click on "Select Potential Colony" or "Select Resource Target" you can see the abundance details without leaving the Expansion Planner.
If your monitor is of enormous size, yes. For those of us who use regular monitors that can actually fit on desks rather than giant plasma screens that hang from walls, that we can pick up, without the use of a forklift, not so much.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I have to say that having played through entire games using the Expansion Planner, your characterization of how difficult it is just really doesn't make any sense to me.
Yes, but you also have "Developer Tunnel Vision". Developers very easily get a tunnel-visioned view of how the game should be played. I know this because I have developed things, only to have users try to do things in a completely strange manner that I had never even thought of doing, because of developer tunnel vision. You get set in this "one true way" of playing the game, and then you encounter someone else, who has an entirely different approach to playing and manipulating the game's data and interface.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I usually don't try to find such things visually. I do use the expansion planner.
Exactly! Because you are the developer, and you made this expansion planner to do that. You haven't seriously considered that someone might visually spot a resource by chance or following something, and want to do something to it: You're used to manipulating the world from the expansion planner: That's your tool of choice. The idea that someone may do otherwise is utterly alien to your thinking, but yet, here it is: That is clearly what the user is doing and this is why he finds it frustrating.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I filter by resource and sort by distance, then click on each one so that the map in the expansion planner shows me where it is. If I want to check abundance, I use the Select button in the expansion planner to check that. It's a one stop shop for me.
And this is a fine textbook example of developer tunnel vision. You've gotten this particular scheme down so pat that you haven't considered that others might not do things precisely this way, and indeed, they can't, because they don't have the hardware you do. For instance, you use the Select Button. I can see how for you, this works great. But not everyone has a huge monitor like you! The expansion planner entirely blocks that window, and WE CAN'T SEE IT! And the map in the expansion planner? Our monitors aren't as huge as yours. That map is tiny and everything looks like a little dot, where most features of "where the hell is that" cannot be precisely identified.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

If I do wander upon it on the map, I can either sort by name in the expansion planner or right click on the planet and queue a mission from there without an issue.
It is possible to do this, and indeed, it seems the expansion planner is your pet tool. It's a good tool. But it's not perfect. For one, it's hideously slow and cluttered if the list of potential objects is huge. And was that planet I just saw HX-521, or HY-588? Let me go check. *close expansion planner again, double check, reopen, watch it recompute the list, find another planet that happens to look very similar in name*. It's a good tool. But not perfect.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

I find they are pretty well balanced across constructors actually, but I can see the value in an empire-level queue. Good suggestion, can you please put it in the Master Wishlist as well?
Yeah, I'll do that. Then it will end up forgotten like most of the other things in the list, heh. :P

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

That's because of the colonies, not because a ship or fleet briefly trespasses. I'm not joking, give it a try when you have no colonies sharing another empire's system.
Not joking either. I have guys who are ABSOLUTELY FUMING at me purely over ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

That's actually what the listed modifiers in the diplomacy screen are intended to communicate, so that you know what's bothering each AI empire. You may also note that on our list of improvements for the next update are some tweaks on how the AI deals with human players in this regard.
Which isn't my point. My point is not that we cannot see that the AI is taking offense at the act. My point is that the player is unable to empathize with the problem or really understand WHY it bugs the AI so. He may not even be consciously aware he is causing it, so he will just suddenly find the AI fuming over some slight that he was not even aware of. It is like having a roommate that takes severe personal issues with some minor thing that you happen to do: You can't even really remember doing it and probably not even consciously aware of it, but for some reason, that thing you do, whether it's leaving your socks on the floor or not presoaking the dishes, it REALLY BUGS THE CRAP OUT OF HIM and he's incredibly strident about it at random points. Worst of all, he does it, too! (And then blames YOU for it!) Plus, he does that really annoying thing where he ___________.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)
Post #: 30
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