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RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye!

 
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RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/11/2010 7:43:28 PM   
Crimguy


Posts: 1409
Joined: 8/15/2003
From: Cave Creek, AZ
Status: offline 		Man, and I thought this thread was going to be locked. Like others, I won't buy until the DRM is modified. I don't need it fully removed. BFC has a perfectly serviceable DRM scheme, and it's reliable. Get 2 installs, and removing one and activating again is all good. It should be increased to 5 or so, though . . .

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Post #: 31
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/11/2010 8:11:21 PM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

I am finding these Game leading to DRM threads interesting. Here we have violence, wars, homelessness, government corruption, starvation that continue without let up but hey here comes some little game company trying to make a living and HERE, NOW I am going to put my foot down, speak up and stand for something - NO DRM! Kind of sad really....



Discussing games' issues on a games' BBS? Who'd-a-thunk it, eh?

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Post #: 32
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/11/2010 9:56:46 PM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

I am finding these Game leading to DRM threads interesting. Here we have violence, wars, homelessness, government corruption, starvation that continue without let up but hey here comes some little game company trying to make a living and HERE, NOW I am going to put my foot down, speak up and stand for something - NO DRM! Kind of sad really....




People tend to notice loss of their rights when it affects them personally.

I've never witnessed a starving person.

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Post #: 33
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/11/2010 11:15:00 PM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
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quote:

I was part of Civil War generals Impressions game then it evolved into CWG2 it was my hope then that they would make CWG3 but never did.


Well this is interesting, I wondered where there boys were hiding after all this time.  The last time I had any contact with the devs was on the old Sierra site around the time it was bogged down in flame posts during the Lords of the Realm III release iirc.




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Post #: 34
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 9:13:04 AM   
Anguille


Posts: 637
Joined: 6/28/2006
From: Hyper-cruiser "Phantom"
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Obsolete

quote:

I was part of Civil War generals Impressions game then it evolved into CWG2 it was my hope then that they would make CWG3 but never did.


Well this is interesting, I wondered where there boys were hiding after all this time.  The last time I had any contact with the devs was on the old Sierra site around the time it was bogged down in flame posts during the Lords of the Realm III release iirc.





Lords of the Realm III was Impressions Games last game. It wasn't due to the reaction to Lords III...the guys already knew they would have to go when the game was released. While i can understand the reactions to the game (which i do not share), the game is solid and bug-free. The planned CWG3 would have been completely different to CWG2...it was going to be real-time...

Back on topic: i would love to buy the game (Gettysburg) as it looks great and i am myself a veteran Civil War II: Generals player and love this period but i won't until Norb removes this DRM. I've been supporting small indies for some time (for example Magitech) but can't support this. I would also buy it despite Norb's past history since TCM2.

< Message edited by Anguille -- 4/12/2010 9:15:21 AM >

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Post #: 35
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 9:47:11 AM   
Obsolete


Posts: 1492
Joined: 9/4/2007
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quote:

The planned CWG3 would have been completely different to CWG2...it was going to be real-time...


So I have heard.  I don't know why publishers try to change things that aren't even broke?  No one wanted CWG changed, no one wanted LOTR changed, so I think the flack was rightfully deserved.  Despite the quality may have been decent.  Change the name if you change the game.

Anyhow, I still find it hard to believe that Sierra published a real hex war-game, with enough simplicity to get newbs into it, and enough complexity that grognards enjoyed it.  Hard to find this kind of win-win system anymore.




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Post #: 36
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 10:14:49 AM   
joeblack1862

 

Posts: 106
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

That said, there's a growing list of games that I haven't purchased because I found the licensing scheme objectionable. I've spent many thousands of dollars on games over the years, and I have no intention of accepting punishment because of the misdeeds of others.

No rentals, please.



I'll give this a miss. No "more" rentals for me either

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Post #: 37
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 10:38:39 AM   
goodwoodrw


Posts: 2661
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

That said, there's a growing list of games that I haven't purchased because I found the licensing scheme objectionable. I've spent many thousands of dollars on games over the years, and I have no intention of accepting punishment because of the misdeeds of others.

No rentals, please.



I'll give this a miss. No "more" rentals for me either


I guess everyone to their own, but it baffles how people paying for product once consider it a rental. Yes maybe not the ideal way to purchase a game, but certainly not rental as to rent something one pay the service on a regular basis. The game hasn't got limited installs, and need to be connected to the internet to play.


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Post #: 38
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 10:48:05 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline 		If you read Norb's comments on this at his site he's steadfast in his decision and doesn't care about what he calls the 'few' who won't buy it because of the DRM. He says it's his decision which it is of course and forumers like Merchant and Slick egg it on. It would seem some ig's are for something until they get burned by it then are the first ones to rush and complain about it when it happens. The DRM fuse is burning it just hasn't exploded like it will eventually. Some are feeling it when their online download sites are down and they can't play their games because of it. I believe this happened recently to the Battlefront site when it was hacked. People who had bought into their elicense bs and wanted to download their games couldn't. Had this been brick n mortar and merely a CD key inside the box that wouldn't have happened.

< Message edited by MajFrankBurns -- 4/12/2010 11:24:03 AM >

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Post #: 39
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 10:52:05 AM   
Fishman

 

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
Status: offline 		And here I was thinking I would hear some actual good news, but no, apparently, there is merely relay of empty talk. As fascinating as developer pledges are, their rate of following through on them ranks down there with those of politicians.

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Post #: 40
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 11:07:11 AM   
e_barkmann


Posts: 1307
Joined: 4/18/2000
From: Adelaide, Australia
Status: offline 		Well this 'idiot' happens to think the developer is worth supporting due to the quality of the application.

If it wasn't for these kinds of developers, we're only going to have those horrible 'kiddie' wargame-lite games to choose from that cater for the twitch n thrill crowd; and frankly I'd rather read a book.




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Post #: 41
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 11:55:03 AM   
goodwoodrw


Posts: 2661
Joined: 2/14/2005
Status: offline 		He He I figure you don't like 2o twenty cricket either Chris I'm with you on this. Sometimes the quality of the game will over ride the delivery system.
Ron

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Post #: 42
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 4:13:32 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
Status: offline 		This whole topic has been a difficult struggle in my own mind. In the end, I've decided that this type of DRM is a necessary evil in order to assure that norbsoftdev and other small independent development shops receive every penny coming to them for all of their hard work to release a quality game like SOWGB.

Is it possible that norbsoft might go belly up some night and not be able to release the DRM restriction as they've promised to do? Yes, I acknowledge that and accept the risk. The question for me with every purchase I make - not just in gaming, but in every type of entertainment - is "Did I get my money's worth?" In this case, my answer is a resounding yes.

The argument about not being able to play the game in 5 or 10 years time is valid for those of you who go back and play games from days gone by. But for me, I just don't have the time to go back and play classics like XCOM: UFO Defense or Uncommon Valor. There have been so many good and worthwhile games released in the past few years, that I can't even keep up. I purchased Gary Grigsby's War Between the States about three months ago and haven't found the time to play it.

It cost me $44.95 to "purchase" or "rent" or "borrow" SOWGB. It cost me more than that to take my son to two movies this past month. The two movies combined was aprox 4 hours of quality time. I gained that much quality time from SOWGB in the first day I played it! And every time I play it online with other people who have a similar interest, it keeps paying dividends.

Would I prefer that norbsoft change their DRM to a more user-friendly method like what Matrix Games uses? Yes. Will norb remove the DRM once they feel they've gotten the amount of revenue that they were hoping to achieve? Time will tell. I hope they do.

Regardless, if a software development house makes the games I want to play, I will support them with my purchases.

YMMV

 


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Post #: 43
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 4:47:07 PM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
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quote:

ORIGINAL: BASB


quote:

ORIGINAL: Joe Black

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

That said, there's a growing list of games that I haven't purchased because I found the licensing scheme objectionable. I've spent many thousands of dollars on games over the years, and I have no intention of accepting punishment because of the misdeeds of others.

No rentals, please.



I'll give this a miss. No "more" rentals for me either


but certainly not rental as to rent something one pay the service on a regular basis.



Ownership inherently means you can do with it as you please. Anything else is a rental. Can you use and/or reinstall this when they quit the business or go belly up? (as all, but a very few, software businesses have)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

this type of DRM is a necessary evil in order to assure that ... shops receive every penny coming to them



How does a protection scheme (of any kind) ensure that?

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Post #: 44
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 4:47:18 PM   
ilovestrategy


Posts: 3611
Joined: 6/11/2005
From: San Diego
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

I am finding these Game leading to DRM threads interesting. Here we have violence, wars, homelessness, government corruption, starvation that continue without let up but hey here comes some little game company trying to make a living and HERE, NOW I am going to put my foot down, speak up and stand for something - NO DRM! Kind of sad really....



Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a discussion about war games in a war game forum? I play games and go to game forums to TALK about games, not real life issues.

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Post #: 45
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 4:55:25 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: E

How does a protection scheme (of any kind) ensure that?



You are right. It can't.

But it can reduce the amount of revenue lost from non-technical pirates.

In the end, this type of argument is academic because there is no way to accurately count how much money is actually lost by pirates.


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Post #: 46
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 5:34:06 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline 		Well, let's go back to the top of the thread, shall we?

quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

Norb said yesterday over on the SOWGB forum:

"I fully expect to remove the drm stuff at some point. I like to do that once we're done with it ourselves."

Just thought I'd pass this along to anyone who has been holding back because of the activation DRM.


I ASS-U-ME that a spokesman for the game actually made the comment that's attributed to "Norb." With that proviso, let's take a moment to analyze its import to our readers and their reaction...

On the one hand, you have folks who won't buy a game that employs the type of DRM adopted by the developer/publisher. As near as I can tell, their response to the announcement is 100% positive. Several posters have indicated that they read the thread because they believed that it meant that the DRM scheme really was being abandoned, HUZZAH! Likewise, they expressed a degree of disappointment when further examination of the several posts revealed that its departure was being delayed.

Good enough, right?

Well, apparently that's not the reaction that some fans of this new game were looking for...

What exactly do you guys want? NSW has said that it is considering abandoning its DRM scheme at some point in the future. Does that not imply that the developer/publisher believes that it may be(come) unnecessary? Likewise, is it not a tacit recognition and admission of the fact that there is a pool of gamers, unknown in number, who won't pay for the use of software that they may lose access to at some point in the future, particularly if the business concern in question fails?

Or was there some other motive behind posting this news to the Matrix Games' forum?






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Post #: 47
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 5:39:41 PM   
JudgeDredd


Posts: 8573
Joined: 11/14/2003
From: Scotland
Status: offline 		Well, I'm waiting for them to drop the DRM. When they do, I'll buy it. Until then, I'll enjoy my other games.

There is a rule of thought that DRM is perceived as a "delaying" tactic. in other words, making it difficult for the first couple of weeks on release...that's when most wanters of the game would buy it if they could not download it (the good old can't have must have lives we lead now).

Once a game has been out a while (and I have no proof of this), DRM is pointless...people have moved on to bigger a better things. That's my opinion and I'm sticking to it.

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Post #: 48
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 6:04:08 PM   
SlickWilhelm


Posts: 1854
Joined: 7/22/2007
From: Rochester, MN
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Or was there some other motive behind posting this news to the Matrix Games' forum?


My intention as the OP was nothing more than to try to assure some gamers who were hesitant because of the DRM. I copied and pasted Norb's test straight out of a thread over on their website. If I would have made it up, I most certainly would have used correct grammar in the quoted two sentences!

I did the same thing when the bruhaha over the DRM of Rise of Flight was going on here. The devs have since removed the "active online" DRM requirement for the offline part of that game.

If my cheerleading for other quality war games offends you, PoE, then surely there is a way to filter my posts out of your Matrix Games browsing.

Btw, I'm an owner of 16 Matrix Games titles, and I consider this place my gaming "home" and you and the others here my wargaming breathren. I didn't mean to start a flame war or anything. Just trying to share important info about good games.





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Post #: 49
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 6:15:54 PM   
Ron

 

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quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a discussion about war games in a war game forum? I play games and go to game forums to TALK about games, not real life issues.



It appears the point I was trying to convey completely eluded you and some others who commented. I apologize for my poor writing skills. I was in no way inferring one should/must not talk of this or any matter. The intent of my previous post was perspective or in this case a lack of.

(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 50
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 6:32:16 PM   
Prince of Eckmühl


Posts: 2459
Joined: 6/25/2006
From: Texas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

My intention as the OP was nothing more than to try to assure some gamers who were hesitant because of the DRM.


Well, I have to ask you at least one question...

The thread title reads, "Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye!" With utmost respect and knowing that folks can get carried away on the spur of the moment, do you believe that was what the "official" post at the NSW website actually meant, or was it perhaps an overly optimistic interpretation of the post (on your part)? If so, you may have done the developer/publisher more harm than good.


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Post #: 51
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 11:03:07 PM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: E

How does a protection scheme (of any kind) ensure that?



You are right. It can't.

But it can reduce the amount of revenue lost from non-technical pirates.

In the end, this type of argument is academic because there is no way to accurately count how much money is actually lost by pirates.



I agree that any lost sales are due to the casual/non-technical pirates, as most hardcore pirates wouldn't buy [insert game name here] anyway.

It's a judgement call by any manufacturer whether that amount of lost sales is worth the lost sales and hard feelings because of a DRM. These latest E.T.-Phone-Home DRM's and Always-Online DRM's are bringing the whole thing to the fore and showing manufacturers the resentment that is building (I think part of that is the typical copy protection inconveniencing honest buyers more than pirates, but these also bring up the whole ownership issue).



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Post #: 52
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/12/2010 11:50:14 PM   
htuna


Posts: 591
Joined: 1/19/2009
From: Boston, MA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm

quote:

ORIGINAL: Prince of Eckmühl

Or was there some other motive behind posting this news to the Matrix Games' forum?


My intention as the OP was nothing more than to try to assure some gamers who were hesitant because of the DRM. I copied and pasted Norb's test straight out of a thread over on their website. If I would have made it up, I most certainly would have used correct grammar in the quoted two sentences!

I did the same thing when the bruhaha over the DRM of Rise of Flight was going on here. The devs have since removed the "active online" DRM requirement for the offline part of that game.

If my cheerleading for other quality war games offends you, PoE, then surely there is a way to filter my posts out of your Matrix Games browsing.

Btw, I'm an owner of 16 Matrix Games titles, and I consider this place my gaming "home" and you and the others here my wargaming breathren. I didn't mean to start a flame war or anything. Just trying to share important info about good games.






I appreciate the updates Slick.. I definitely am interested in the game.. and once I find out I can play it on both my laptop and desktop without having to activate/deactivate, I will probably jump on it (if I don't cave in earlier)... I don't even mind the Activation.. it's the limit to one that irks me.. cause I know I'll always forget to deactivate before moving to the other PC and it'll be a royal pain in the...

(in reply to SlickWilhelm)
Post #: 53
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/13/2010 1:41:51 AM   
cressy

 

Posts: 18
Joined: 1/18/2006
Status: offline 		Greetings

For me this game is rather cheep at 44.99. I have already enjoyed 25 hours of gaming with it, with every hour it gets cheeper. Not many games give you a sense of being there, if any, this one does it.

(in reply to htuna)
Post #: 54
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/13/2010 2:02:25 AM   
MajFrankBurns

 

Posts: 344
Joined: 3/29/2010
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ilovestrategy


quote:

ORIGINAL: Ron

I am finding these Game leading to DRM threads interesting. Here we have violence, wars, homelessness, government corruption, starvation that continue without let up but hey here comes some little game company trying to make a living and HERE, NOW I am going to put my foot down, speak up and stand for something - NO DRM! Kind of sad really....



Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't this a discussion about war games in a war game forum? I play games and go to game forums to TALK about games, not real life issues.


Ok I'm correcting you. If you look at the Forum title it says General Gaming Discussion not general wargame discussion. DRM is part of games now so should and will be discussed.


(in reply to ilovestrategy)
Post #: 55
RE: Gettysburg DRM - 4/13/2010 3:46:56 AM   
Erik Rutins

 

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline 		Just to add a response to a post above, DRM such as this is _not_ necessary in order to sell wargames. Niche games like hard core strategy/war games do very well without restrictive DRM and I'm not particularly sympathetic to those that employ them. With that said, this is a decision each developer and publisher has to make and I do understand why some go this route, though I believe they are misinformed and end up costing themselves more sales than they might gain in this market. It's also a decision for each customer to make, whether they are willing to accept DRM on their games or not.

I do agree that the title of this thread is somewhat misleading in that the DRM on this game is still in place and the timeframe of when it might be removed is extremely vague.

I've also heard that the game itself is good, so kudos to the devs on that, though I don't know when I'll have time to try it out myself.

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Post #: 56
RE: Gettysburg DRM - 4/13/2010 7:12:58 AM   
E

 

Posts: 1247
Joined: 9/20/2007
Status: offline 		At the very least, these kinds of DRM's are divisive in a niche market.

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Post #: 57
RE: Gettysburg DRM - 4/13/2010 1:23:32 PM   
sterckxe


Posts: 4605
Joined: 3/30/2004
From: Flanders
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: E
At the very least, these kinds of DRM's are divisive in a niche market.


Exactly. It allows me to divide publishers in those that get my money and those which don't.

Their choice.

Greetz,

Eddy Sterckx

(in reply to E)
Post #: 58
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/13/2010 4:09:02 PM   
LarryP


Posts: 3783
Joined: 5/15/2005
From: Carson City, NV
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: cmurphy625

Darn.. saw this post updated and thought they changed the DRM!!!.. oh well


Me too. Let down and leaving...

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Post #: 59
RE: Gettysburg DRM to go bye bye! - 4/14/2010 10:04:15 AM   
NefariousKoel


Posts: 2930
Joined: 7/23/2002
From: Murderous Missouri Scum
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Slick Wilhelm


quote:

ORIGINAL: E

How does a protection scheme (of any kind) ensure that?



You are right. It can't.

But it can reduce the amount of revenue lost from non-technical pirates.

In the end, this type of argument is academic because there is no way to accurately count how much money is actually lost by pirates.



The argument is flawed from the beginning.

How will they make more sales from people who don't purchase software? It's laughable.

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Post #: 60
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