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Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 5:58:21 PM   
Brady


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 6:10:06 PM   
anarchyintheuk

 

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 6:12:17 PM   
chesmart


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 6:13:11 PM   
RevRick


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Status: offline 		Chart showing hits on USS San Francisco following 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal -- IIRC 11 NOV 42.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 7:38:30 PM   
Nikademus


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 8:02:41 PM   
John Lansford

 

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Status: offline 		Don't think that's San Francisco after the Guadalcanal fight.  IIRC she lost a big chunk of her superstructure to Hiei or Kongo's 14" guns (and her captain and TF commander too) when the BB couldn't depress the main guns far enough to hit her hull.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 8:09:05 PM   
ChezDaJez


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quote:

ORIGINAL: John Lansford

Don't think that's San Francisco after the Guadalcanal fight.  IIRC she lost a big chunk of her superstructure to Hiei or Kongo's 14" guns (and her captain and TF commander too) when the BB couldn't depress the main guns far enough to hit her hull.


The hull number on the bow says 38 which equates to the USS San Francisco.

Chez

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:22:28 PM   
JohnDillworth


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Status: offline 		nice grouping in the middle though

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:22:50 PM   
Chickenboy


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Status: offline 		What's with those three big smudges amidships? Could they be dye shots that actually impacted the side of the hull?

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:27:17 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

Chart showing hits on USS San Francisco following 1st Naval Battle of Guadalcanal -- IIRC 11 NOV 42.


I'd say you're more or less right. Although Navsource states that the picture was taken at Mare Island 14th Dec 1942 and the damage was sustained on 13th Nov.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:35:12 PM   
chesmart


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:37:36 PM   
Dixie


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quote:

ORIGINAL: che200

How long does it take to go from Guadalcanal to Mare island ?


Dunno really, she arrived at Pearl on Dec 4th but she might have gone home via Oz and NZ or waited for more ships before going there. No doubt someone where will know for certain.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:44:28 PM   
chesmart


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Status: offline 		Tough ship she took a beating at 1st Guadalcanal and returned home with her crew very interesting story.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 9:49:55 PM   
AW1Steve


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Status: offline 		This is the relavant part of the entry in DANFS's :                                                                                                                                                                                                           On the afternoon of 14 November, SAN FRANCISCO returned

to Espiritu Santo.  For her participation in the action of

the morning of the 13th, and for that of the night of 11 and

12 October, she received the Presidential Unit Citation.  On

18 November, the cruiser sailed for Noumea, and, on the 23d,

she got underway toward the United States.  She reached San

Francisco on 11 December.  Three days later, repairs were

begun at Mare Island.



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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/14/2010 10:07:03 PM   
chesmart


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 12:02:23 AM   
John 3rd


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Status: offline 		It always amazes me how little visible damage there is from combat.  I think of Bismarck, Yorktown, and Lost Ships Bob Ballard National Geographic videos and many of those ships LOOK pretty good.  This CA was pounded but isn't TOO bad to the naked eye.  Pretty interesting...


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 12:38:08 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		Armor piercing rounds don't do much external damage.  Especially against armor.  If a tank doesn't burn, a kill shot is often just a relatively small hole on the outside.

I recently read a book about the USS Dale which was at Pearl Harbor and survived the war.  They were called on to escort the Washington and South Dakota after their shootout with the Kirishima.  Since all their DDs had been sunk or been badly damaged, a priority was put on getting more DDs to Tulagi to escort the BBs. 

Part of the Dale's crew were put aboard the South Dakota to help recover bodies and clean up.  From a distance, the damage looked moderate, but once they got on deck they saw nothing topside made it through without damage.  The carnage among the topside crew was heavy too.

Bill


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 6:41:54 AM   
bklooste

 

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Status: offline 		It was prob a mistale for the IJN to use AP when you cant depress to fire at the hull , same thing happened on a number of occassions ( Okinawa , Leyte) . If those 14" and 8" shells were HE the damage would be far more severe


quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

Armor piercing rounds don't do much external damage.  Especially against armor.  If a tank doesn't burn, a kill shot is often just a relatively small hole on the outside.

I recently read a book about the USS Dale which was at Pearl Harbor and survived the war.  They were called on to escort the Washington and South Dakota after their shootout with the Kirishima.  Since all their DDs had been sunk or been badly damaged, a priority was put on getting more DDs to Tulagi to escort the BBs. 

Part of the Dale's crew were put aboard the South Dakota to help recover bodies and clean up.  From a distance, the damage looked moderate, but once they got on deck they saw nothing topside made it through without damage.  The carnage among the topside crew was heavy too.

Bill




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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 10:23:05 AM   
wdolson

 

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Status: offline 		I don't know all that much about Japanese warship design, but their BBs did seem to have trouble depressing the guns.  The only times their BBs saw the sort of action they were designed for, the fight ended up being, at least in part, short range.  At Samar the Johnston ended up trading shots with Kongo at one point.  Of course the Johnston couldn't do much damage, but they were too close for the Kongo to hit them with the main guns.  Unfortunately when they tried to get away, the Kongo was finally able to get their main guns on the Johnston and that pretty much doomed her.

I believe the only long range BB duel was at Surgio Strait and that was very one sided.  I don't think the Japanese BBs ever got a single shot off at the US BBs.

If Halsey had parked the fast BBs off San Bernadino Strait there might have been a long range battle.  It was the only chance for both sides to engage fast BBs with each other.

Bill


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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 1:18:01 PM   
bklooste

 

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Status: offline 		A lot of their ships were old designs and still had casemates which raises the deck etc. I would say more modern ships like the Yamato could depress their guns the same as more modern allied ships.

quote:

ORIGINAL: wdolson

I don't know all that much about Japanese warship design, but their BBs did seem to have trouble depressing the guns.  The only times their BBs saw the sort of action they were designed for, the fight ended up being, at least in part, short range.  At Samar the Johnston ended up trading shots with Kongo at one point.  Of course the Johnston couldn't do much damage, but they were too close for the Kongo to hit them with the main guns.  Unfortunately when they tried to get away, the Kongo was finally able to get their main guns on the Johnston and that pretty much doomed her.

I believe the only long range BB duel was at Surgio Strait and that was very one sided.  I don't think the Japanese BBs ever got a single shot off at the US BBs.

If Halsey had parked the fast BBs off San Bernadino Strait there might have been a long range battle.  It was the only chance for both sides to engage fast BBs with each other.

Bill




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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 2:41:29 PM   
chesmart


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Status: offline 		IIRC in Hammels Guadalcanal the sea battles the San Francisco's Armoured Conning tower was penetrated only once and it wiped out most of the officers on the bridge. The XO was heavily wounded the day beforeb by a kamikaze Betty which wiped out the secondry bridge. After the hit on the bridge the ship finished conned by an officer who had just been promoted.  Does anybody know what kind of shells the japanese where firing in first Gudalcanal AP or HE ? 

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 5:17:08 PM   
Brady


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USS San Francisco, it is


.................


Smudges, are I belave spots that have been touched up by a sensor.


Acording to Hara:

- The Japanese did use AP

- Hei Fired second, responding to the first salvo from Atlanta, which was trigered by Hei's use of her search light (intended to find Nagara, which she beleaved was 2,000 meters in front of her)... Hei opened fire on Atlanta at 5,000 meters, acording to Hara almost all of Hei's first slavo of 14 inch shels hit Atlanta.

- Hara later says he came apon San Francisco sudenly (p.137), they almost ran into her, as the ships pased at some 500 meters range Hara loosed his four remaning torps which acording to him all hit, but the range was to short for them arm, his Gun grews howeaver riddled San Sanfranscio as they past fires erupting all over the ship. Hara nots his action was to port, he had ordered the helm to the "right" so my asumption is the shels impacted the Port Side of San Franscisco. (Hara also mentions that the CA had no gun turets, but he used his search light to ID the ship, so it may of just been the angle he was viweing the enemy ship from, or posably this was another ship).

GUNFIRE DAMAGE REPORT (Pictures)



< Message edited by Brady -- 4/15/2010 5:31:15 PM >

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 7:42:39 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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Status: offline 		Would highly recommend the report Brady posted above. Fascinating pictures.

Here, a 14 shell bounces off the armoured turret II barbette




Attachment (1)

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 8:43:07 PM   
RevRick


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Status: offline 		The first thing I thought was "What did it sound like inside that barbette?" Then, "WHAT???" A 14" anything hitting the barbette of a CA and then bouncing off amazes me.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 9:10:59 PM   
Chickenboy


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Status: offline 		One thing I always hated about ship to ship combat was the awful effect of large caliber shells like that on human bodies. When you see the amount of damage to metalworks from such a punishment, it makes one blanche thinking what happened to those poor sailors around the blasts. Just awful.

Thanks for the post, Brady. Very sobering.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 9:28:12 PM   
Cap Mandrake


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quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

The first thing I thought was "What did it sound like inside that barbette?" Then, "WHAT???" A 14" anything hitting the barbette of a CA and then bouncing off amazes me.


You aren't the only one who wondered about that.

From the report (barbette had 5 in armor):

63. The nature of the fourteen inch projectiles which struck the SAN FRANCISCO is of interest in connection with the fires. Reference (c) reports that fragments recovered from hits five and six indicated projectiles slightly larger than fourteen inches. They were of incendiary type with a heavy base and thin (3/8") walls. The cavity was apparently filled with an explosive charge and a large number of small (3" x 1") safety-fused incendiary cylinders filled with powdered aluminum and magnesium. Apparently the explosive charge detonates, sets safety fuses afire, and scatters incendiary cylinders over a wide area. This started fires in many inaccessible places. There was no evidence of a base plug, and tt is probable that the projectile had a nose fuse with a fuse adapter for nose loading. The 5" S.T.S. barbette armor defeated them easily. It was fortunate for SAN FRANCISCO that neither of these shells was armor piercing.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 9:31:28 PM   
chesmart


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Status: offline 		So they were firing the special bombardment shells at San Francisco ? I have to read that report.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 10:14:42 PM   
Q-Ball


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Status: offline 		WOW! Neat Report! If that 14in shell was armor piercing, I venture to say it would have been bye-bye San Francisco. It should have pierced that Barbette, and and once that happens...Kaboom.

The filing cabinet there looks like it's completely unscathed. Must be an uparmored one!

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 11:10:42 PM   
chesmart


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Status: offline 		Interesting no AP rounds where used on San Francisco during the engagement only HE was used.

Very interesting report Brady thanks.

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RE: Name This!...(60) - 4/15/2010 11:24:57 PM   
Local Yokel


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quote:

ORIGINAL: Cap Mandrake

quote:

ORIGINAL: RevRick

The first thing I thought was "What did it sound like inside that barbette?" Then, "WHAT???" A 14" anything hitting the barbette of a CA and then bouncing off amazes me.


You aren't the only one who wondered about that.

From the report (barbette had 5 in armor):

63. The nature of the fourteen inch projectiles which struck the SAN FRANCISCO is of interest in connection with the fires. Reference (c) reports that fragments recovered from hits five and six indicated projectiles slightly larger than fourteen inches. They were of incendiary type with a heavy base and thin (3/8") walls. The cavity was apparently filled with an explosive charge and a large number of small (3" x 1") safety-fused incendiary cylinders filled with powdered aluminum and magnesium. Apparently the explosive charge detonates, sets safety fuses afire, and scatters incendiary cylinders over a wide area. This started fires in many inaccessible places. There was no evidence of a base plug, and tt is probable that the projectile had a nose fuse with a fuse adapter for nose loading. The 5" S.T.S. barbette armor defeated them easily. It was fortunate for SAN FRANCISCO that neither of these shells was armor piercing.


It's my understanding that these were the san-shiki (Type 3) incendiary rounds developed by the Japanese for all their main battery weapons from 18 inch down to 8 inch calibre. There seems to be some doubt as to whether they were intended primarily for bombardment or for anti-aircraft use.

What is interesting is that evidence from the damage to San Francisco that she was hit by these rounds directly contradicts Hara Tameichi's account of First Guadalcanal. In this he states that the Japanese, surprised by the appearance of Callaghan's ships, made frantic but ultimately successful efforts to strike all this bombardment ammunition below. It appears that in reality the Kongos were left with no option but to rid themselves of some at least of these vulnerable rounds by firing them at the American ships.

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