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RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 4:12:45 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman Not generally offered with games, no, although applications frequently offer a money-back guarantee for any dissatisfaction with the product. You would think that the policy would be offered more frequently for digital downloads than non, since you don't have to deal with a physical product return and restocking. Still, not really a complaint, just a point of note.

Understood. Actually, it's typical for digital download stores to offer _no_ refund because there's no way to really "return" a digital download.

quote:

If your monitor is of enormous size, yes. For those of us who use regular monitors that can actually fit on desks rather than giant plasma screens that hang from walls, that we can pick up, without the use of a forklift, not so much.

Ok, sorry about that. This works on both my test systems, but the lowest resolution I have is 1440x900.

quote:

Yes, but you also have "Developer Tunnel Vision". Developers very easily get a tunnel-visioned view of how the game should be played. I know this because I have developed things, only to have users try to do things in a completely strange manner that I had never even thought of doing, because of developer tunnel vision. You get set in this "one true way" of playing the game, and then you encounter someone else, who has an entirely different approach to playing and manipulating the game's data and interface.

Sure, I understand how that happens. With that said, if the way that I use works very well (for me) and is the "intended" way to get the most out of the game I think I should share it with others, no?

quote:

Exactly! Because you are the developer, and you made this expansion planner to do that.

I'm not the actual developer (that's Elliot), but I did work with him throughout development so the game definitely reflects his vision, my vision and the vision of the testers. We did try to accomodate different play styles with the screens and menus, but pre-release pretty much everyone agreed that the Expansion Planner was a serious time saver.

quote:

You haven't seriously considered that someone might visually spot a resource by chance or following something, and want to do something to it: You're used to manipulating the world from the expansion planner: That's your tool of choice. The idea that someone may do otherwise is utterly alien to your thinking, but yet, here it is: That is clearly what the user is doing and this is why he finds it frustrating.

But we did - I mean if you see a planet right on your screen, you can right click on it and order something to happen (build a mine, build a colony ship).

quote:

And this is a fine textbook example of developer tunnel vision. You've gotten this particular scheme down so pat that you haven't considered that others might not do things precisely this way, and indeed, they can't, because they don't have the hardware you do. For instance, you use the Select Button. I can see how for you, this works great. But not everyone has a huge monitor like you! The expansion planner entirely blocks that window, and WE CAN'T SEE IT! And the map in the expansion planner? Our monitors aren't as huge as yours. That map is tiny and everything looks like a little dot, where most features of "where the hell is that" cannot be precisely identified.

Guilty as charged on the Select button, but the rest still applies. The map size is the same for me as for you though, the sub-screens don't scale with resolution. I just look to see where the dot is so that I can confirm it's not in some other empire's territory or so far from mine that I won't be able to defend it. For the intended purpose, it works fine.

Also, as noted above, although I have a preferred style we are not blind to other styles. I think the interface can support they style you mention through the right click context menus.

quote:

It is possible to do this, and indeed, it seems the expansion planner is your pet tool. It's a good tool. But it's not perfect. For one, it's hideously slow and cluttered if the list of potential objects is huge. And was that planet I just saw HX-521, or HY-588? Let me go check. *close expansion planner again, double check, reopen, watch it recompute the list, find another planet that happens to look very similar in name*. It's a good tool. But not perfect.

Certainly, it is not perfect and I've said all along that there is and will be room for improvement. But if you don't like it you can order up that mine or colony by right clicking on your object of interest as you see it on the map.

quote:

Yeah, I'll do that. Then it will end up forgotten like most of the other things in the list, heh. :P

Ye of little faith...

quote:

Not joking either. I have guys who are ABSOLUTELY FUMING at me purely over ships.

Ok, I'll re-check this here, but I have not seen that. How many military ships do you have in their territory and how long have you left them there?

quote:

Which isn't my point. My point is not that we cannot see that the AI is taking offense at the act. My point is that the player is unable to empathize with the problem or really understand WHY it bugs the AI so. He may not even be consciously aware he is causing it, so he will just suddenly find the AI fuming over some slight that he was not even aware of. It is like having a roommate that takes severe personal issues with some minor thing that you happen to do: You can't even really remember doing it and probably not even consciously aware of it, but for some reason, that thing you do, whether it's leaving your socks on the floor or not presoaking the dishes, it REALLY BUGS THE CRAP OUT OF HIM and he's incredibly strident about it at random points. Worst of all, he does it, too! (And then blames YOU for it!) Plus, he does that really annoying thing where he ___________.

Ok, so the AI is too passive aggressive in its communications - check. We'll see if we can add more "prior notice" for the player when something starts to bug the AI.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 31

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 5:38:43 PM

Fishman

Posts: 795
Joined: 4/1/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

But we did - I mean if you see a planet right on your screen, you can right click on it and order something to happen (build a mine, build a colony ship).

Yeah, I brought up that issue with the colony ships. It would be nice to be able to specify not only a colony ship, but also, what race of the applicable races you have you would like to see there. As most empires are multiracial, and there is probably some bonus you want, or at least some agenda you are trying to push (either the preservation of an endangered race, or a dominance agenda), not to mention differing environmental preferences, having a colony ship picked at random from somewhere is not necessarily desirable. Especially if the resulting colony ship isn't even able to land as a result of being the wrong race...I wouldn't know if that happens because the previously mentioned flaws with that interface render it completely useless to me. The indication that the event you might request is already happening when you rightclick is handy, but contains insufficient information: All it tells you is that some colony ship of some indistinctly useless name is either being built, or en-route, but not when this event is likely to happen.

It is also impossible to cancel or change the order if circumstances have changed to make it a bad idea, or some other greater priority has come up: If a colony ship under construction is given an order, you cannot cancel it, change it, or give it a new one. Or give it one at all, except through the expansion planner, which has numerous shortcomings in this regard, such its omission of valid targets.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ye of little faith...

I'm not a faith-based person. I expect little, and am quick to criticize when what I never expected in the first place isn't delivered yesterday. I am a man of action, immediate action, and my track record in my own work shows this. It is commonly the case that when someone reports a bug to me, I fix it. Now. I prefer to acknowledge a report by indicating it has been fixed already and that you can thus go and get the fix, rather than making empty promises that something will be done.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, I'll re-check this here, but I have not seen that. How many military ships do you have in their territory and how long have you left them there?

None. They're screaming about the freighters, or their escorts, again. Based on your reports in the upcoming patch, I expect that the screaming will continue.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

Ok, so the AI is too passive aggressive in its communications - check. We'll see if we can add more "prior notice" for the player when something starts to bug the AI.

Passive-aggressive and hypocritical, since the AI does it to YOU all the time, and clearly does not expect you to get as bent out of shape over it as he does. I'm not calling him up to scream that he remove his escort craft from my space every time they show up. In fact, 99.9% of the time, I will not even notice, and when I do, I will shrug and meh. This universally asymmetrc value judgement does not help the player relate to the AI. Meanwhile, his habit of invading your space with colony ships has absolutely no recourse whatsoever: No option exists in the diplomacy menu to complain about this behavior, demand that it cease, or otherwise do anything about it, while the AI is entirely willing to gripe about it if you do it to him. Also, when the AI complains, there is no actual option given to either comply with his request or refuse it, unlike when complain: If you complain to the AI about his ships, he is given the option to comply with or refuse the request: When the AI complains to you, there is nothing you can do. You can't agree, you can't refuse, and if you were going to refuse, there is no way to indicate WHY you are refusing. This is a major problem with pretty much every 4X game to date: When you refuse an AI's request, there is no way to indicate why you are refusing the request. The AI will therefore see you as belligerent and noncompliant, you are given no means of expressing your own disputes with the AI, and quickly, the disruptor cannon becomes the only universally understood tool of communication. The diplomacy system is then seen as lacking.

< Message edited by Fishman -- 4/14/2010 5:39:09 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 32

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/14/2010 11:43:42 PM

Sigh

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Joined: 4/12/2010
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Im not going to sit here and argue your points. Thats the job of the beta testers BEFORE the game is released. Im not doing their job for you. You tell me to use the expansion planner to build bases but just IGNORE the fact that research is also a part of the game and needs bases built in random points scattered through the galaxy.. you tell me that you have never had a war because of ships in other systems (despite it giving a huge penalty to the way they perceive you and contrary to MANY reports of just that happening) You talk about only seeing the "bad" things written about the game while you obviously only see the good. This is not only a marketing form of pep talk but really doesn't look good. People arnt posting the bad things just so that you can tell us that we should focus on the good things. The reason we post the bad things is because THEY SUCK and we want them changed.

Im not an idiot and im one of the most veteran gamers you'll ever find Erik. I know the flaws of the game and i know how they relate to other games. I know how to program and design games. Pointing out small pluses in the game and trying to wave away the great flaws is NOT going to persuade me in any way. Trying to call the automation good while i watch my fleets get blasted by a single pirate because they cant defend themselves is UNACCEPTABLE. It will be fixed in the next patch? WHY ISN'T IT WORKING ON RELEASE?

The game has great potential but right now its a steaming pile of dung (in price/quality terms). Maybe it will get better and all be "worth" it but this has taught me to never buy a game from you guys before testing it..

Oops NO DEMO? I wonder why

If I sound like an ass well sorry but I'm not the one on the spot here. The game is overpriced and I am very unhappy as a customer. Any explanation of the game being worth it is like a used car salesman trying to tell me that a used car with bad breaks, a broken door and rust is worth MORE than a NEW car. (Giving the reason that It can always be fixed up)

Because that's exactly the way this game is being sold

Despite all this I still wish you success with the game. I know how hard it is to create such an ambitious project with such a small team. Still.. Why should I have to pay for the difficulty involved?

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/15/2010 3:58:57 AM >

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 33

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 12:45:22 AM

Webbco

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The majority of people on this forum are actually enjoying this game. That to me, indicates it is not broken.

There are definitely bugs, but they are being worked on by a team who appear to care about this game, and what people are saying.

This gives me the ability and desire to wait patiently for other stuff to be fixed and tweaked without expressing too much frustration, but I realise it's not the same for everyone.

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 34

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 1:04:29 AM

Sigh

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
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That doesn't mean anything. Most people are not hardcore gamers and have lower expectations. I seriously think most people dont even see the flaws because they dont have the same basis for comparison. (I think a lot of people here are also matrix vets... Its natural for people to be more tolerant when part of the community.. i prob would be too.. well maybe)

You can have a talented musician listen to typical MTV Pop and and a kid without any musical understanding (and who is also easily influenced by "talk"

) listen to the same music. The kid will prob think its great and the talented musician will think its an abomination.

Of course in that example it doesn't really matter since people are entitled to their opinions and the talent has the option of staying away from the music if he pleases.

I (and others) didnt have the option. There is no demo for download (and whatever matrix tries desperately to name as a reason it just comes down to them being scared that it will result in less sales.. i bet there will be one once the game is patched) And the game does not function as advertised. I can not even play the game anymore since have come to the understanding that the experience will be destroyed within 30 mins of game time.

Some people are just more tolerant of bad game design when when they see it. I don't think i have to point out why this is no justification of it still being bad. I liked Daggerfall when i was 14. It was still an AWFUL game considering you had to pay for it.

And im sick and tired of hearing the "patience.. they will fix it" argument. I already paid for the damn product. I didnt pay for it just to wait a year for the majority of things to be worked out.

There are bugs/flaws that are unacceptable for a release version. The game is in BETA. And it cost 2-3 times as much as comparable indie games (that work).

If you and others are enjoying it well im happy for you. I dont wish the feeling of being cheated on anybody. As said the only thing i can do is "hope" the game becomes playable and never buy a matrix game again (until it is available for demo.. since there are some good games offered by the company)

edit: Btw i did notice you saying that you understand its different for everybody. Im just ranting ^^

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/16/2010 1:17:52 AM >

(in reply to Webbco)

Post #: 35

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 1:17:21 AM

VarekRaith

Posts: 138
Joined: 2/21/2010
From: Manassas, Virginia
Status: offline

Some friendly advice. Being antagonistic is not a good way to get others to consider your points.

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 36

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 1:18:15 AM

Sigh

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Thats not my goal?

(in reply to VarekRaith)

Post #: 37

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 10:41:04 AM

Webbco

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Yeah this is just simply a difference in opinion. I'm fine just waiting for things to be fixed, because I can play the game now and enjoy it. Sigh, and a few others, feel that these are fundamental issues that make the game unplayable, where others consider them as issues but ones that require some tweaking and improvement to be resolved.

I personally wouldn't have suggested that most people have lower expectations because I know I'm definitely not in that catagory...but then it's all relative and subjective. I've taken back many games I don't deem worthy of my purchase. If the support for DW wasn't as good as it was at the very beginning, I probably would have stopped playing it by now but due to the swift and effective patch releases I've been happy.

My point I suppose would be that now you have laid down your opinion in pretty blunt terms, Sigh, consistently bringing the game down wherever possible will not achieve anything whatsoever. And making comments such as "that doesn't mean anything" to other people's posts surely cannot be constructive. Can it?

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 38

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 10:58:51 AM

Sigh

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I apologize if i offended you. It wasn't intended to denounce your post in the way you seem to think it was. Basically all I meant was that just because there are people enjoying it, it doesn't mean the game is in acceptable release condition.

A Lot of the people that are enjoying the game seem to also think the same.. They just accept it (I'm obviously more irked by buggy software/games). But that's whats so bothersome. You can get away with this now because people act like the fixing of a game after release in some way deserves praise.. When I read people thanking Erik because they are fixing it it makes me sick. Of course I am happy that the game is being fixed.. And I have stated that I really enjoy the basic premise of it (I really want it to work so i can actually play it :P ) But why not just release the game in working condition? Besides business reasons of course... (which are not relevant to me as a consumer)

(in reply to Webbco)

Post #: 39

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 5:24:59 PM

themetalcrow

Posts: 69
Joined: 1/24/2010
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honestly dude, if the game plays than why should you get a refund? if a car works would you get a refund?

you don't really believe you should get a refund just because you disagree with how the game works? or would you believe you should get a refund on a car just because it is with or without certain things that you think it should or should not have?

besides you weren't forced to buy this game were you? and why not wait till it's been out a while anyway, like im going to do.

i guess i just don't get your sense of entitlement to a refund just because you don't like something.

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 40

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/16/2010 6:36:33 PM

drillerman

Posts: 455
Joined: 2/11/2010
From: Blighty
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Yeah Sigh lighten up dude, You're becoming a bit of a bore now

. Why don't we all club together and give Sigh a refund so he can go and a buy another game to moan about somewhere else. Sorry, probably uncalled for.

_____________________________

Huh?

(in reply to themetalcrow)

Post #: 41

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 12:10:07 AM

Sigh

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: themetalcrow

honestly dude, if the game plays than why should you get a refund? if a car works would you get a refund?

Are you kidding me? I car that "worked" like this game "works" would not be aloud on the road.

If you sell software that is this broken to a company they will never hire you again (unless they specifically called for it to be finished ASAP

(in reply to themetalcrow)

Post #: 42

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 12:12:15 AM

Sigh

Posts: 74
Joined: 4/12/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: drillerman

Yeah Sigh lighten up dude, You're becoming a bit of a bore now. Why don't we all club together and give Sigh a refund so he can go and a buy another game to moan about somewhere else. Sorry, probably uncalled for.

Boohoo

That fanboy bullcrap is exactly why game designer know they can get away with selling buggy software.

So thanks for letting them get away with it. But really its ok. Ive learned not to trust the company, You can keep giving them your money for the crap ;)

Oh.. And really If i bore you oh well. My only goal is to make sure people dont get suckered into buying the ****stain of a game. If i had saw this thread before purchasing I wouldnt have

< Message edited by Sigh -- 4/17/2010 12:14:32 AM >

(in reply to drillerman)

Post #: 43

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 12:17:32 AM

RViener

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Erik, I think this thread has outlived it's benefit. Bob Viener

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 44

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 1:58:13 AM

Krelos

Posts: 39
Joined: 4/10/2010
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If I were the developer I would give you a refund, then ban you from the forum and blacklist your bank account so you could never buy one of my games again.

But that's just me.

(in reply to RViener)

Post #: 45

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 2:11:58 AM

crazyguy

Posts: 104
Joined: 4/3/2010
From: Vienna
Status: offline

Sigh it's a very easy mathematical point to understand:

Facts(irrelevant if you think they are good - they are still facts):

1.) Game development cost money 2.) Testing cost money 3.) It's commonly accepted that software is bugged (every software is bugged also Space Shuttle software) 4.) Public testing increases the risk to get your software on a torrent before release (see Fallout 3 was on torrents MONTHS befor release) 5.) Game developers mostly have a tight budget, only a few have nearly endless amounts of it. 6.) 4x games are a niche market. 7.) 10 customers are worth more than 1 8.) Most game companies release patches at launchday 9.) Patches after the first mostly need some month

If you sum up all the facts in a conclusio:

CF has developed a niche product with a tight budget did a beta and released a game wich was playable with a few bugs. These bugs (found by extended unpayable testing of a lot of dedicated customers) was found and SOLVED after a few days. Since the first patch every 1-2 weeks a patch fixing MINOR bugs and OPTIMIZING gameplay comes out.

Now you can still say there are software companies out that don't have problems with bugs - tell me one!!! comercial software that is bugfree? Is still on version 1.0 because it didn't NEED any update.

As last approach you can say: I am a customer it doesn't have to bother me! Sorry thats not the case - more internal testing needs more money which means it needs the company to earn more money so they must make a higher price... Do you want to pay 99$ for example?

If you don't understand this maybe I should tell ya that every car that was developed in the last 15 years need at minimum 20 patches to their internal software to work also well under special circumstances.

If you think I don't know what I am talking about:

Higher Technical School for Software Development Bachelor degree in Applied Computer Sciences 5 years working at a bank developing high security software 3 years working as system admin (trust me even 1000000$ software has bugs) working with pc's for 20 years

I think I know what I am speaking about ;)

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 46

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 2:34:40 AM

crazyguy

Posts: 104
Joined: 4/3/2010
From: Vienna
Status: offline

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

Im not an idiot and im one of the most veteran gamers you'll ever find Erik. I know the flaws of the game and i know how they relate to other games. I know how to program and design games. Pointing out small pluses in the game and trying to wave away the great flaws is NOT going to persuade me in any way.

I am just curious at which game company have you worked �r have you developed an indy game? Which one? I maybe would like to try it

quote:

The game is overpriced and I am very unhappy as a customer.

Just one question here: Why the hell did you buy it if you think it's too expensive? Why didn't you wait until it's going cheaper if you wasn't sure if it will be the game you want? I am just curious as I like to know if you maybe have a point that I don't see.

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 47

Question - 4/17/2010 3:06:41 AM

hermanhum

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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh

Im not going to sit here and argue your points. Thats the job of the beta testers BEFORE the game is released. Im not doing their job for you.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman

Yes, but you also have "Developer Tunnel Vision". Developers very easily get a tunnel-visioned view of how the game should be played. I know this because I have developed things, only to have users try to do things in a completely strange manner that I had never even thought of doing, because of developer tunnel vision. You get set in this "one true way" of playing the game, and then you encounter someone else, who has an entirely different approach to playing and manipulating the game's data and interface.

Both Sigh and Fishman have been articulate and detailed on the failings of DW.

I have a question for both of you:

How long did it take you to formulate your opinion on what you think are faults within the design of Distant Worlds? Were most of them apparent to you within 30 mins of gameplay? 60 mins? 120 mins? more?

_____________________________

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 48

RE: Question - 4/17/2010 5:50:59 AM

Aurelian

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$40 for a game is not over priced. Considering that I paid about $60 for Carriers at War when I had a C64 it's a bargain.

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 49

RE: Question - 4/17/2010 12:35:19 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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I agree that Sigh has been behaving poorly, all things considered, but I still hold out hope that the 1.0.4 update will turn him around a bit. Let's see how that goes.

_____________________________

Erik Rutins
CEO, Matrix Games LLC

For official support, please use our Help Desk: http://www.matrixgames.com/helpdesk/

Freedom is not Free.

(in reply to Aurelian)

Post #: 50

RE: Question - 4/17/2010 2:18:50 PM

drillerman

Posts: 455
Joined: 2/11/2010
From: Blighty
Status: offline

I've never been called a Fanboy before, is that good? Can a 45 year old be a Fanboy, or should I be a Fanman!?!?!?!?!

Sigh, It's not that we don't agree with some of your comments, it's that you just keep going on and on and on!

We all know there are issues. With this type of game with so many different things interacting with everything else there are bound to be bugs etc. However, because these types of games with this much depth don't come along so often anymore I think we need to make allowances while the game is balanced, patched, tweaked etc.

_____________________________

Huh?

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 51

RE: Question - 4/17/2010 3:07:45 PM

Fishman

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quote:

ORIGINAL: hermanhum

How long did it take you to formulate your opinion on what you think are faults within the design of Distant Worlds? Were most of them apparent to you within 30 mins of gameplay? 60 mins? 120 mins? more?

The faults in DW aren't really in the design, so much as they are in the implementation. But they started becoming apparent within an hour or two, yes.

(in reply to hermanhum)

Post #: 52

RE: Question - 4/17/2010 7:46:27 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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I disagree that this game has "faults." I'm curious to see these "steaming pile of dung" level faults or "broken" elements enumerated in clear concise fashion. Having skimmed through all the posts by those who are complaining, I don't see these clear descriptions of these 'major' problems. Until I do, I am not taking such complaints seriously, and I tend to think that what we have here is merely contumeliousness on the part of a newcomer to this publisher's community and gamestyle.

Complex dynamics that are not yet optimally balanced? Yeah, there are some of those in DW, as there are bound to be in any complex strategy game even long after the pre-and post-release periods. It is simply not possible for a publisher to do all possible tests, and that is in large part why games in this genre have increasingly evolved to require longer post-release 'beta, i.e., patch periods.

Some UI operations that are not yet optimally balanced? Yeah, some of those too. Some user functionality that is not yet implemented at all that would make the game a more pleasant experience, i.e., stuff like we see constructive contributors to the forum offering in the Wishlists and other discussion threads? Yeah, there is a need for some of that too.

However, when you compare this game to other space games, it is IMO, head and shoulders above the rest, and simultaneously more challenging. Not to mention that this game has tremendous untapped potential in terms of Matrix being a very supportive publisher that tends to keep improving and patching for long periods after release, that there is a very active and constructive player community who are likely going to become a very productive and creative modder community, and that the possibility for lots of expansions and spinoff mods seems good.

Yes I'm a Matrix regular, but I don't just lurk around tooting their horn on every new game they sell. I just happen to think this one is a good one.

_____________________________

The x-ray is her siren song. My ship cannot resist her long. Nearer to my deadly goal. Until the black hole. Gains control...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkIIlkyZ328&feature=autoplay&list=AL94UKMTqg-9CocLGbd6tpbuQRxyF4FGNr&playnext=3

(in reply to Fishman)

Post #: 53

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 8:45:52 PM

Wade1000

Posts: 771
Joined: 10/27/2009
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh 3. Micromanagement.. This is where my forum nick comes from.. For a game that advertises the automation this is way beyond acceptable.. So If I want to build a station somewhere this is what i have to do:

I have to find a constructor ship (yes i know there is a menu for this).. Leave the selection menu.. send it to its destination to build. (maybe even have to zoom in to set it exactly where it should go)... wait for it to get half there.. learn that it has run out of fuel... tell it to refuel at the next refueling station watch it IGNORE the resupply station that is right next to it and zoom off to some other system.. refuel... tell it to go build that damn station... repeat. All the while im being attacked constantly by pirates and whatnot :rolleyes: Also when this retard of a constructor is finished with its cue it is no longer set to automatic. So if i should forget about it (while doing the same with some other constructor) well.. too bad.. Its a waste of a ship/maintenance

Let me show you an alternative method that a sane game would use:

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.

"...place station..."... or mine, or whatever. This would be GREAT! like in many ground based RTS games, like Starcraft 2. There could be like a shaded or faded "ghost" image of what is being "placed" on the main screen and then it vanishes. A constructor then arrives to begin the construction.

< Message edited by Wade1000 -- 4/17/2010 9:11:49 PM >

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Wish list:population centers beyond planetary(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Culture):Ships,Ring Orbitals,Sphere Orbitals,Ringworlds,Sphereworlds;ability to create & destroy planets,population centers,stars;AI competently using all advances & features.

(in reply to Sigh)

Post #: 54

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 9:21:24 PM

Wade1000

Posts: 771
Joined: 10/27/2009
From: California, USA
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Ship order queues balanced/shared.

Maybe ship order queues, like for construction ships, need to be balanced/shared to all construction ships in an empire-wide to do list.. Thus, one construction ship at the nearest to the specified locations will not aquire a huge list of backlog orders for constructions.

quote:

ORIGINAL: Fishman
quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.

That's exactly how it works for me, using the Expansion Planner.
Well, in order to use this functionality, even under optimal conditions, requires that you go into the expansion planner, a lengthy and often incomplete list, locate a planet with an inscrutable name you cannot remember, and then pick it out of the list. Most likely the user in question has spotted the desired planet visually, by seeing it as he follows the progress of an explorer ship or finding it next to one of his colonies. Given that mineable objects typically have utterly inscrutable names like AA####, having to try to find it again in a list of hundreds of similarly indecipherable objects is not exactly convenient. And, of course, there are all the attendant caveats of order-queuing, such as that orders are not balanced between constructors. If the Order Queue were maintained in a constructor-independent manner, as an empire-level "to do" list, instead of a per-ship queue, this would probably not happen.

quote:

If the Order Queue were maintained in a constructor-independent manner, as an empire-level "to do" list, instead of a per-ship queue, this would probably not happen.

http://www.matrixgames.com/forums/tm.asp?m=2435952&mpage=1&key=

< Message edited by Wade1000 -- 4/17/2010 9:24:16 PM >

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Post #: 55

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 10:56:38 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
Joined: 2/22/2005
From: Secret Underground Lair
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Wade1000

quote:

ORIGINAL: Sigh 3. Micromanagement.. This is where my forum nick comes from.. For a game that advertises the automation this is way beyond acceptable.. So If I want to build a station somewhere this is what i have to do:

I have to find a constructor ship (yes i know there is a menu for this).. Leave the selection menu.. send it to its destination to build. (maybe even have to zoom in to set it exactly where it should go)... wait for it to get half there.. learn that it has run out of fuel... tell it to refuel at the next refueling station watch it IGNORE the resupply station that is right next to it and zoom off to some other system.. refuel... tell it to go build that damn station... repeat. All the while im being attacked constantly by pirates and whatnot :rolleyes: Also when this retard of a constructor is finished with its cue it is no longer set to automatic. So if i should forget about it (while doing the same with some other constructor) well.. too bad.. Its a waste of a ship/maintenance

Let me show you an alternative method that a sane game would use:

Select location for station, select space station from list, place station, "Automation" takes over the rest.
"...place station..."... or mine, or whatever. This would be GREAT! like in many ground based RTS games, like Starcraft 2. There could be like a shaded or faded "ghost" image of what is being "placed" on the main screen and then it vanishes. A constructor then arrives to begin the construction.

The original quote is simply not true, and the fact that you want it to play like an RTS suggests that you are not taking the time to learn how THIS game is designed, and instead are expecting it to play like some other game.

To build a station . . . or mine, or whatever: there are myriad ways to get it done more efficiently than the OP whom you quote describes. Two of them:

1. Go to the Expansion window, sort the list of potential targets (colonies or mines) use the large buttons on the bottom of the screen to either send a free miner or allocate (i.e., build) a colony ship, or queue a miner = 3 clicks.

2. Lets say you notice a planet that you want to exploit while viewing it in the main map. Click on the "scroll through constructor ships" on the lower left till you get to one you want to use (could be a free one that is not currently on a mission, could be one that you want to queue a second mission for). Right-click the target planet/moon and then either give the vessel you have selected the command to work there or the command to Queue--work there. Assuming that the second ship in the Miner scroll screen is suitable: again about 3 clicks.

If you cannot be bothered to play a complex game, then don't: go back to playing Starcraft. But don't pass off your impatience/attentional bias as a "poorly designed game."

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Post #: 56

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 11:05:00 PM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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From: Secret Underground Lair
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quote:

Ship order queues balanced/shared.

Maybe ship order queues, like for construction ships, need to be balanced/shared to all construction ships in an empire-wide to do list..

No. This is a bad idea which hinges on the idea that making the game simpler is better. This is not a simple game. If you want it to be simpler then just turn stuff on auto and let the AI decide how to allocate things. Creating exceptions to player controlled and auto functions that combine the two UI mechanics will create more and more exceptions, special circumstances and conflicts which will produce less fun not more.

If someone cannot be bothered to read through some lengthy lists of assets, or to remember unusual ship and planet names then why play this game? Why not just play a game like GalCiv?

I can agree that some of the windows (e.g., ship characteristics in the selection window on lower left of main screen; or ship characteristics in the ship lists) would be improved if more information were provided by mouse-hover over or right-clicky, but trying to simplify the game by mixing more automation into unautomated mode is not going to help.

If for example, you cannot keep your ships fueld, go into the Options and set the alert that ships need refueling to appear as a popup window.

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Post #: 57

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/17/2010 11:26:35 PM

Wade1000

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Anthropoid, settle down. I know of all those features you mention.

I made suggestions to add to or�improve the interface commands. You just seem to be telling others to play one way and not to offer suggestions in fear of the game becomming less complex.

By the way, a simplified, less complex�user interface while keeping the GAME complex, in depth, and epic is a good thing.

You seem to be mixing words and assuming what my opinions are.

< Message edited by Wade1000 -- 4/18/2010 12:26:32 AM >

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Post #: 58

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/18/2010 12:02:39 AM

Anthropoid

Posts: 3107
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Wade, I'm sorry if I misunderstood where you stand. Lets just say: there are clearly some folks who have decided they do not like this game, and are making inaccurate and indeed unfairly harsh claims about it being "broken." If you have no intent to make any such claims, then I'm not really responding to you but simply to some of the folks you've quoted up above.

With the way game development works these days, constructive ideas and suggestions seem to be quite important in how much a game actually realizes its full potential, so to the extent that that is your goal, my apologies if I misunderstood you.

I don't think that was the goal of the OP, and I don't think that is necessarily the goal of every poster in this thread. Sour-grapes, poorly informed, else just plain bitchy comments should not be treated as if they are well-intentioned or worthwhile. Again, if that is not your intent, my apologies.

Every game has flaws, even long after it has undergone an assiduous and sincere long span of collaboration among users and developers to patch, fix and refine. Expecting perfection, or expecting a game to fit one's personal ideas of perfection is simply not reasonable; nor is expecting a refund because you didn't like the game, nor is then arguing that it is "broken" and therefore you deserve the refund on the grounds that it was a fault in the product. IMO, Matrix should just lock this thread. There is nothing constructive happening here. If guys want to offer constructive suggestions they can always open other threads or contribute to other ongoing threads.

< Message edited by Anthropoid -- 4/18/2010 12:03:57 AM >

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Post #: 59

RE: Refund Possible? - 4/18/2010 1:18:48 AM

Wade1000

Posts: 771
Joined: 10/27/2009
From: California, USA
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No problem. Maybe you were mostly comenting to Sigh.

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Post #: 60