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Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 1:40:18 PM

Joram

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Joined: 7/15/2005
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I find more and more the treatment of taking over planets is fairly disappointing. I find it's too easy for planets to switch hands. I think one or two small tweaks though could fix it.

First, the defender should always get a large boost. And I mean large. While I realize this is sci-fi and you can throw out any ratio you want but old conventional wisdom says you need at least three times as many attackers as defenders if they are dug-in. With that in mind, I would propose one tweak would be to vastly increase the strength of defending units. A subtweak would be that you could use bombardment to dig-out the defenders (think a bit how TOAW does it).

Another issue is near the instantaneous nature of it. I feel like I am fighting WW2 in a day. I don't need or want any tactical battles or anything like that but if we are talking vast planetary battles, I'd think it should take a lot longer. Unless there is overwhelming attacking force (say 6x if you want me to throw out a ratio), the battles should take long enough to allow either the attacker and/or defender to reinforce the battle. And as new troops get thrown in, this will either change it in favor of one side or another or just drag the battle out longer.

If you did the first tweak, then I wouldn't be as bothered with the need for the second or even vice versa. PS don't focus on the ratios, just the concepts but something needs to be done to make it a bit more interesting. Right now taking planets just feels like checkers.

Post #: 1

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 2:20:54 PM

Erik Rutins

Posts: 37503
Joined: 3/28/2000
From: Vermont, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram
I find more and more the treatment of taking over planets is fairly disappointing. I find it's too easy for planets to switch hands. I think one or two small tweaks though could fix it.

Well, although it works it is fairly basic, this is an area with room for future improvement.

quote:

First, the defender should always get a large boost. And I mean large. While I realize this is sci-fi and you can throw out any ratio you want but old conventional wisdom says you need at least three times as many attackers as defenders if they are dug-in. With that in mind, I would propose one tweak would be to vastly increase the strength of defending units. A subtweak would be that you could use bombardment to dig-out the defenders (think a bit how TOAW does it).

The defender does get a boost, as far as I know. It's not on the order of 3:1, but if you have fairly even strength units and you try to take a world with the same number of attackers, you will fail. Logically, being invaded from space is a bit different from modern day warfare in that the invaders can really pick and choose where they fight. We could increase the defensive boost, I also think the troop automation needs to make the "standard" garrison larger.

quote:

Another issue is near the instantaneous nature of it. I feel like I am fighting WW2 in a day. I don't need or want any tactical battles or anything like that but if we are talking vast planetary battles, I'd think it should take a lot longer. Unless there is overwhelming attacking force (say 6x if you want me to throw out a ratio), the battles should take long enough to allow either the attacker and/or defender to reinforce the battle. And as new troops get thrown in, this will either change it in favor of one side or another or just drag the battle out longer.

What speed are you generally playing on and what kind of battles are these? I've seen big invasions where the attacker did not have a huge advantage over the defender take a long time on 1x speed (especially with the defender recruiting new troops). I've had time to send in a second reinforcing invasion wave when the first was faltering, etc. But landing eight units on a planet garrisoned by one or two is always over very quickly (as it should be).

quote:

If you did the first tweak, then I wouldn't be as bothered with the need for the second or even vice versa. PS don't focus on the ratios, just the concepts but something needs to be done to make it a bit more interesting. Right now taking planets just feels like checkers.

As noted above, this part of the game is admittedly fairly basic and there is room here for a lot more to be done in future expansions. We can certainly tweak the balance a bit more now though.

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(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 2

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 2:30:07 PM

Wicky

Posts: 102
Joined: 4/1/2010
From: Linz, Austria
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Joram, there is already a defensive boost, each billion of colonists count as an additional troop. (As it says in the galactopedia, they will fight as long there is 1 regular troop alive.)
If you are going to capture a 30B capital planet with only 30 troops and they have 10, good luck your forces will get thrown out of the planet in no time. :)

< Message edited by Wicky -- 4/19/2010 2:31:05 PM >

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 3

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 2:36:42 PM

Joram

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Joined: 7/15/2005
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins

The defender does get a boost, as far as I know. It's not on the order of 3:1, but if you have fairly even strength units and you try to take a world with the same number of attackers, you will fail. Logically, being invaded from space is a bit different from modern day warfare in that the invaders can really pick and choose where they fight. We could increase the defensive boost, I also think the troop automation needs to make the "standard" garrison larger.

Erik, thank you for your response.

I understand what you mean by being able to pick and choose where you fight but I don't think it makes that much a difference as at the end of the day, there are still objectives that would have to be taken in order to control the planet. Regardless if the attacker controls the countryside, if he doesn't control the pop or trade centers, then he doesn't really control the planet. Without going into the need of a long campaign (which could be simulated with the 2nd idea), this fact could be represented by greatly increasing the defender bonus. They've dug in around the capital or spaceports or whatever. Hammer's Slammers aside, it shouldn't be as easy as it is today. :)

quote:

ORIGINAL: Erik Rutins
What speed are you generally playing on and what kind of battles are these? I've seen big invasions where the attacker did not have a huge advantage over the defender take a long time on 1x speed (especially with the defender recruiting new troops). I've had time to send in a second reinforcing invasion wave when the first was faltering, etc. But landing eight units on a planet garrisoned by one or two is always over very quickly (as it should be).

I play on 1x or less. I have to say I've never seen what you describe. What made me think of this was a recent battle where I had about 8 garrisons on a planet which feels like a lot (at least it costs a lot!) and even though I had a large space port and a nice little fleet guarding it, the planet was taken over in just a minute or two. I don't doubt what you see but feel that the conditions that allow what you describe seem fairly narrow.

As I mentioned at the end of the original post, I see planets go back and forth so much and so quickly it really feels like I'm playing checkers with planets.

(in reply to Erik Rutins)

Post #: 4

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 3:03:47 PM

Gerth

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Adding a menu of pre-invasion options would be cool.

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 5

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 3:12:13 PM

Sarissofoi

Posts: 329
Joined: 2/1/2010
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Some two cents about garnisson forces.

Add militia and conscripts unit. Their strenght aqnd aviabiality should wary from goverment to goverment and sometimes be affected by races characteristic.
Simply militia will be private sector ground units. Most common in feudalism, less comon in monarchy/republic, rare in democracy, non existent in despotic/dictatorship(goverment monopol for armed forces).
Player dont control them and dont train them and dont pay their upkeep. How many these units private sector will train should by affected by cautioness. More caution(100+) race will train more but less caution race(100-) will not train less(unless this is democracy:).
In feudalism player can pay and take control of these units making them your own(think about mercenaries and vassal contingents).

Conscripted units should represent units formed for planetary defense from citizens. Feudalism dont have these but rest system shold have it(but some goverments should have some advantage over others). These units are drafted automaticly when enemy invade but their numbers should be random(but based on population and development level). Thats mean that if you rely only on consrtiped units to defend your planets enemy can surprise you(tat mean only few units will be mobilized) and deafet with easy. On the other hand if there is regular army chance should rise to mobilize greater amount of units.
Also player should be alowe to draft units from non atacked planets but their combat strenght should be lower than normal trained units and drafting should make people unhappy.

On the other hand in some goverments army should can quelle some unhapinnes(like in civ) ignoring war weariness and unhapinnes from taxes. I mean that this unhapinness still is but having some army units you can ignore some of them.

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Post #: 6

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 4:29:41 PM

Joram

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Those are all interesting suggestions but don't really address the fundamental problems I think exist that being it's just too easy and too quick taking over planets. I'm looking to tweak the mechanics to make invasions a bit harder and more interesting without adding complexity.

(in reply to Sarissofoi)

Post #: 7

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 9:55:26 PM

Gertjan

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Starbases make it already difficult to take over key planets. So I think it is not as easy as you claim it is.

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Post #: 8

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 10:30:01 PM

SicTyrannis

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Joined: 3/29/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

Those are all interesting suggestions but don't really address the fundamental problems I think exist that being it's just too easy and too quick taking over planets.� I'm looking to tweak the mechanics to make invasions a bit harder and more interesting without adding complexity.�

I disagree. I actually think taking over planets is too difficult. Once you control orbit, you control a planet. In my last game, I stopped taking over planets and switched to eradicating them because it was such a pain to marshal and coordinate large landings to take over the planet (it didn't help that the planets I was taking over used to be mine that revolted when I went path of darkness and instead of having the computer's 1-10 troops, had 20+ troops). So I did a Alderaan on all the rebels.

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Post #: 9

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 10:45:17 PM

Gargoil

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quote:

ORIGINAL: SicTyrannis
So I did a Alderaan on all the rebels.

Queue Star Wars Darth Vader Theme music....Dah..Dah..Tadah...Dah...Tadah...

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Post #: 10

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/19/2010 11:47:57 PM

Joram

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The AI constantly takes over planets with major bases on it and I can do it too. So with all due respect, I don't think you are doing it right if that is your only complaint. Perhaps the setting on your troop transports isn't quite right and they aren't landing the troops like they should but with just minimal support to distract any covering fleet, you can easily do a run through the starbase and land your troops. Perhaps it's a 'trick' I learned but if you watch the AI, you can see them do it too.

(in reply to Gargoil)

Post #: 11

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/20/2010 8:56:12 AM

Dadekster

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Joined: 4/18/2010
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While MoO3 was a mess, I did enjoy the way they handled ground combat. If you wanted to flatten the planet you could, otherwise you got a couple options on how to attempt to take the planet, plus you could agument them with certain things iirc like pysch op's. What you picked had a big impact on what was left on the planet regarding infrastructure after you won or lost.

Only other thing that would have been cool to have would have been several different types of troops to pick from for the invasion like infantry, armour, marines, etc if you went the planetary ground combat route. To keep it simple you had to pick which flavor to land in a wave and certain ones would work better depending on the planet type. Armour best on desert planets and so forth. Would require some actual forward planning, instead of pile 5 zillion generic soldiers on some ships and just send them to enemy planet after you smoke his orbital defenses. With all those variables involved sending the wrong unseasoned troops down planetside in the wrong gear would result in a slaughter. Kind of like the opening scene of Starship Troopers! ;)

(in reply to Joram)

Post #: 12

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/20/2010 9:54:21 AM

sbach2o

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Joined: 3/26/2010
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram

The AI constantly takes over planets with major bases on it and I can do it too.

A bit off topic maybe, but I am wondering how to do that. I mean, I've seen an enemy landing a sizeale force on one of my planets while the base is still up, and there are the options about ground troops in the ship designer where you can choose between 'land when clear' and 'land immediately', iirc. But somehow, when I really wanted my forces to land immerdiately, that didn't work out.

I am wondering whether there is soemthing else to be aware of to make immediate ground invasions work. I've read something on these forums about a modifier key that lets you get access to a menu instead of just the default action for individual ships when right-clicking on a target planet/ship/base. Maybe there is something hidden here?

Or is that landing of troops on enemy planets initiated by the default 'attack colony' command and completely controlled by the options in ship designer? And what options are relevant? Those that were in effect when the ship was ordered or built, or the current settings for the design? You can still edit and save them when the rest of design is locked, iirc.

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Post #: 13

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/20/2010 10:00:47 AM

Drusek

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@sbach2o: A lot of times I'm finding that I need to re-give the invade order for my ship - especially after it jumps into the system and there are enemies/bases near the planet. Also 'invade/land immediately' is a must.

< Message edited by Drusek -- 4/20/2010 10:02:05 AM >

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RE: Invasion Issues - 4/20/2010 10:21:45 AM

Okim

Posts: 209
Joined: 1/29/2010
From: Russian Federation
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quote:

A lot of times I'm finding that I need to re-give the invade order for my ship - especially after it jumps into the system and there are enemies/bases near the planet. Also 'invade/land immediately' is a must.

This is promised to be fixed in 1.04 update.

(in reply to Drusek)

Post #: 15

RE: Invasion Issues - 4/20/2010 9:03:10 PM

Wade1000

Posts: 771
Joined: 10/27/2009
From: California, USA
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quote:

ORIGINAL: Joram
A subtweak would be that you could use bombardment to dig-out the defenders (think a bit how TOAW does it).

That seems interesting. The entrenched troops could have a defensive percentage that slowly rises up to 100% like cities in Civilization 4.
Maybe we could have two or more planetary bombardment options like:
-bombard population(uses current bomb types)
-bombard entrenched troops(uses ship beam and torpedo weapons). The entrenched troop defensive percentage will start lowering.

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