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RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues

 
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RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/10/2010 7:10:44 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dutch Merchant Fleet

Sources:
L.L. von Münching Schepen van de Kon. Marine in de tweede Wereldoorlog
Chris Mark Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II
H.Th. Bakker De KPM in Oorlogstijd
K.W.L. Bezemer Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse Koopvaardij in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (2 volumes)
R.W. Jordan The World's Merchant Fleets 1939

OBM (=Oost-Borneo Maatschappij)
Overview:
Loa Koeloe (1.865 tons, Sunk 420302)

New Ship:
Pacific S Cargo
Loa Koeloe Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411206 Sunk: 420302

Handel Maatschappij Thong EK
Overview:
Khoen Hoea (1.238 tons)

New Ship:
Coastal Cargo
Khoen Hoea Location: Billiton Delay: 411206 Withdraw: 420309

Rotterdamsche Lloyd
Overview:
Bengalen (6.924 tons, Sunk: 420302), Boero (ex Dupleix) (7.135, 420225), Brastagi (9.247), Japara (9.312), Kota Agoeng (7.355), Kota Baroe (7.281),
Kota Gede (7.323), Kota Inten (7.206), Kota Pinang (7.277, Seized: 400514), Kota Radja (7.177, 420302), Kota Tjandi (7.295, 430430),
Langkoeas (ex Stassfurt) (7.395, 420102), Modjokerto (8.806, 420301), Siantar (8.667, 420303), Toendjoek (ex Rendsburg) (6.200, 420302),
Weltevreden (9.245)

Ship Class changes:
2466- Name: Kota Radja
2561- Name: Kota Radja
2562- Name: Kota Radja

Ship changes:
9381- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
9383- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206 Fuel: 2400
9382- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206 Fuel: 2400
9384- Kota Pinang should be deleted, seized Rotterdam by Germans (400514)
9380- Sunk: 420302
9385- Sunk: 430430 Withdraw: 430317
9405- Name: Modjokerto Location: Batavia
9426- Location: Batavia

New Ships:
Euro L Cargo
Brastagi Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
Japara Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
Weltevreden Location: Batavia Delay: 411206


next to come: Java China Trading Co, JCJL, HAL

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 12:57:12 PM >

(in reply to jwilkerson)
Post #: 961
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/10/2010 10:42:45 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dutch Merchant Fleet

Sources:
L.L. von Münching Schepen van de Kon. Marine in de tweede Wereldoorlog
Chris Mark Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II
H.Th. Bakker De KPM in Oorlogstijd
K.W.L. Bezemer Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse Koopvaardij in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (2 volumes)
R.W. Jordan The World's Merchant Fleets 1939

Java China Trading Co
Overview:
Beatrice (4.128 tons, Seized: 411208)

Ship changes:
9388- Beatrice should be deleted, seized Yokohama by Japanese (411208)

JCJL (=Java-China-Japan Lijn)
Overview:
Tjibesar (10.836 tons), Tjikandi (7.970, Sunk: 420302), Tjikarang (9.505, 420302), Tjinegara (9.227, 420725), Tjisadane (9.288),
Tjisaroea (7.089, 420304), Tjitjalengka (10.972)

Ship changes:
9377- Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411211
9406- Location: Tjilatjap

New Ships:
Dominion L Cargo
Tjibesar Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
Klipfontein
Tjinegara Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411206 Sunk: 420725
Tjitjalengka Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411206 Withdraw: 420221 Return Delay: 430228

HAL (=Nederlandsche-Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij, aka Holland-Amerika Lijn)
Overview:
Noordam (10.726 tons), Sloterdijk (9.230), Sommelsdijk (9.227), Zaandam (10.909, Sunk: 420306)

Ship changes:
9373- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
9414- Location: Batavia Sunk: 0 Withdraw: 420302
9412- Name: Sommelsdijk Sunk: 0

New Ship
Klipfontein
Zaandam Location: Tjilatjap Delay: 420227 Sunk: 421102


next to come: Nederland

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 1:25:17 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 962
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/10/2010 5:17:58 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans
Dutch Merchant Fleet
Java China Trading Co
JCJL (=Java-China-Japan Lijn)
HAL (=Nederlandsche-Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij, aka Holland-Amerika Lijn)

Thanks once again Harald. Will make the additions to Da Babes, both Lite and Big. Don’t quite agree with the class changes, though. Fx, and fyi, the PMM is based on the Poelau/Moeller/Maersk models. Think Noordam, Zaandam, Tjinegara, and Tjitjalengka fit better in Klipfoetein class with respect to speed, size, capacity and especially appearance. Here’s a pic that shows the reasons why I prefer the Klip model. Top is Poelau Laut, next is Klipfontein, then Noordam (Zaandam was a sister), then Tjitjalengka and finally Tjinegara.

Will vet and confirm the Tjik’s, Tjis’s and Tjibesar, keeping your suggestions in mind. Ciao. J
btw, we struck Beatrice in Da Babes and gave her to Japan, under her Japanese name, after a suitable time to repair.




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by JWE -- 4/10/2010 5:21:09 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 963
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/10/2010 10:04:16 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans
Dutch Merchant Fleet
Java China Trading Co
JCJL (=Java-China-Japan Lijn)
HAL (=Nederlandsche-Amerikaansche Stoomvaart Maatschappij, aka Holland-Amerika Lijn)

Thanks once again Harald. Will make the additions to Da Babes, both Lite and Big. Don’t quite agree with the class changes, though. Fx, and fyi, the PMM is based on the Poelau/Moeller/Maersk models. Think Noordam, Zaandam, Tjinegara, and Tjitjalengka fit better in Klipfoetein class with respect to speed, size, capacity and especially appearance. Here’s a pic that shows the reasons why I prefer the Klip model. Top is Poelau Laut, next is Klipfontein, then Noordam (Zaandam was a sister), then Tjitjalengka and finally Tjinegara.

Will vet and confirm the Tjik’s, Tjis’s and Tjibesar, keeping your suggestions in mind. Ciao. J
btw, we struck Beatrice in Da Babes and gave her to Japan, under her Japanese name, after a suitable time to repair.





Thx. Good point. Changed classes (back) to Klipfontein.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 964
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/10/2010 10:34:05 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dutch Merchant Fleet

Sources:
L.L. von Münching Schepen van de Kon. Marine in de tweede Wereldoorlog
Chris Mark Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II
H.Th. Bakker De KPM in Oorlogstijd
K.W.L. Bezemer Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse Koopvaardij in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (2 volumes)
R.W. Jordan The World's Merchant Fleets 1939

Nederland (='Nederland' Stoomvaart Maatschappij)
Overview:
Bintang (6.481 tons, Sunk: 421121), Enggano (5.412, 420301), Java (9.250), Manoeran (7.195), Mariso (ex Bitterfeld) (7.659), Moena (9.286, 420824),
Poelau Bras (9.278, 420307), Poelau Laut (9.272), Poelau Tello (9.272, 420127), Tabinta (8.156), Talisse (8.169), Tanimbar (8.169, 420614),
Tawali (8.178)

Ship changes:
9391- Primary HQ: Southeast Asia Location: Calcutta Delay: 420923 Sunk: 421121
9419- Location: Padang Sunk: 430320
9375- Sunk: 420307
9374- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
9376- Name: Poelau Tello Location: Palembang Sunk: 420127
9378- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206

New Ships:
Euro K Cargo
Enggano Location: Tjilatjap Delay: 420227 Sunk: 420301
Euro L Cargo
Java Location: Batavia Delay: 411206 Withdraw: 420317
Dominion L Cargo
Manoeran Location: Batavia Delay: 411206
Moena Location: Bombay Delay: 411206 Sunk: 420824 Withdraw: 420605
PMM Troop
Talisse Location: Eastern USA Delay: 420401
Tanimbar Location: Tjilatjap Delay: 411206 Sunk: 420614 Withdraw: 420214
Tawali Location: Tjilatjap Delay: 420207

*Note: Jordan rates Poelau and 'T's as 'General cargo vessels'


next to come: Oceaan, Van Nievelt-Goudriaan, VNS, unassigned Ships

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 1:44:46 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 965
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 7:57:11 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dutch Merchant Fleet

Sources:
L.L. von Münching Schepen van de Kon. Marine in de tweede Wereldoorlog
Chris Mark Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II
H.Th. Bakker De KPM in Oorlogstijd
K.W.L. Bezemer Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse Koopvaardij in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (2 volumes)
R.W. Jordan The World's Merchant Fleets 1939

Oceaan (= 'Oceaan' Nederlandsche Stoomvaart Maatschappij)
Overview:
Phrontis (6.181 tons)

New Ship:
Dominion L Cargo
Phrontis Location: Melbourne Delay: 420110 Withdraw: 420213

Van Nievelt-Goudriaan (= Van Nievelt, Goudriaan & Co's Stoomvaart Maatschappij)
Overview:
Alchiba (4.427 tons, Sunk: 420708), Alphard (5.483)

Ship changes:
9387- Location: United Kingdom Delay: 430201 Sunk: 0

New Ship:
Euro M Cargo
Alchiba Location: Cape Town Delay: 420704 Sunk: 420708

VNS (= Vereenigde Nederlandsche Scheepvaart Maatschappij)
Overview:
Abbekerk (7.906 tons, Sunk: 420824), Bloemfontein (10.081), Boschfontein (7.139), Jagersfontein (10.083, 420626), Klipfontein (10.544)

Ship changes:
9370- Location: Batavia
9372- Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Location: Batavia Delay: 411206 Fuel: 2370

New Ships:
Dominion L Cargo
Abbekerk Location: Oosthaven Delay: 420217 Sunk: 420824 Withdraw: 420815
Klipfontein
Jagersfontein Location: Pearl Harbor Delay: 411207 Sunk: 420626 Withdraw: 420618

ex KPM (= Koninklijke Paketvaart Maatschappij)
Overview:
Ban Ho Guan (1.692 tons, Sunk: 420228)*

*Note: ex De Haan

Ship changes:
9400- Name: Ban Ho Guan Nationality: British Primary HQ: Southeast Asia Location: Padang Sunk: 420228

ex Neptun Sea Navigation Co Ltd, ex Norddeutscher Lloyd
Overview:
Liran (ex Nyugat) (4.323 tons, Sunk: 420302), Meroendoeng (ex Friderun) (2.464, 420303)

Ship changes:
9410- Ship Class: Euro M Cargo Sunk: 420302
9413- Ship Class: Pacific M Cargo Sunk: 420303

the following ships are fictional and should be deleted:
9404 9415 9420 (duplicate)

last to come: KHL, La Corona, NIT, NKTM

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 2:24:05 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 966
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 5:10:25 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Harald - do you have anything on small/coastal tankers in the NEI?

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 967
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 6:40:00 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Harald - do you have anything on small/coastal tankers in the NEI?



La Corona, NIT, NKTM all running tankers, NIT and NKTM the small ones.


(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 968
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 6:57:12 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Dutch Merchant Fleet

Sources:
L.L. von Münching Schepen van de Kon. Marine in de tweede Wereldoorlog
Chris Mark Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II
H.Th. Bakker De KPM in Oorlogstijd
K.W.L. Bezemer Geschiedenis van de Nederlandse Koopvaardij in de Tweede Wereldoorlog (2 volumes)
R.W. Jordan The World's Merchant Fleets 1939

La Corona (= 'La Corona' Petroleum Maatschappij)
Overview:
Genota (7.987 tons, Sunk 420509), Manvantara (8.327, 420213), Merula (8.228, 420213), Olivia (6.307, 420614), Ondina (6.341)

Ship changes:
10570- Ship Class: Shell Type-A Location: Perth Delay: 420130 Sunk: 420213
10580- Delay: 420130 Sunk: 420213

New Ships:
Shell Type-A
Genota Location: Geraldton Delay: 420430 Sunk: 420509
BTC Type-L
Olivia Location: Abadan Delay: 420528 Sunk: 420614
Ondina Location: Perth Delay: 421105

NKTM (= Nederlandsche Koloniale Tankvaart Maatschappij)
Overview:
Benakat (aka TAN 7*) (4.763 tons, Sunk: 430520), Djirak (aka TAN 3) (3.077, 420107), Pendopo (aka TAN 4) (5.209, 420302), Talang Akar (2.046, 420302)

* Note: TAN = Tankboot

Ship changes:
10574- Location: Soerabaja
10015- Name: Djirak Ship Class: ETC Type-M Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Captain: Random Location: Balikpapan Sunk: 420107
10016- Name: Pendopo Ship Class: ETC Type-M Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Captain: Random Sunk: 420302

New Ship:
ETC Type-M
Benakat Location: Soerabaja Sunk: 430520 Withdraw: 430508

NIT (= Nederlandsch Indische Tankstoomboot Maatschappij)
subsidiary of La Corona
Overview:
Aldegonda (aka TAN 5) (2.088 tons, Sunk: 420302), Ambo (ex Jane Maersk) (7.691, 420302), Anastasia (3.029, 420301), Angelina (2.086, 420302),
Augustina (3.110, 420301), Iris (3.887, 420215), Josefina (aka TAN 6) (2.594, 420302), Juno (aka TAN 2) (2.245, 420302), Marpessa (7.408),
Paula (aka TAN 1) (2.770, 420301), Petronella (aka TAN 8) (2.770, 441015), Saidja (6.671), Semiramis (5.792, 420215), Aletta (3.085)

Ship changes:
10017- Name: Aldegonda Ship Class: Union Coastal TK Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Sunk: 420302
10568- Sunk: 420301
10573- Ship Class: ETC Type-M
10018- Name: Josefina Ship Class: Union Coastal TK Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Sunk: 420302
10014- Name: Juno Ship Class: Union Coastal TK Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Captain: Random Location: Soerabaja Sunk: 420302
10579- Delay: 420130
10013- Name: Paula Ship Class: Union Coastal TK Primary HQ: KNIL Army Command Captain: Random Location: Batavia Sunk: 420301
10577- Location: Bombay Delay: 420426
10569- Sunk: 420215

New Ships:
BP Type-D
Ambo Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411206 Sunk: 420302
Union Coastal TK
Petronella Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411206 Sunk: 441015 Withdraw: 420430
Aletta Location: Soerabaja Delay: 411206

Ship Class changes:
783- now obsolete, should be deleted
784- now obsolete, should be deleted

KHL (= Koninklijke Hollandschen Lloyd)
Overview:
Salland (6.447 tons)

Ship changes:
10578- Ship Class: Euro K Cargo Location: United Kingdom

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 2:34:38 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 969
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 7:17:32 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Harald Velemans


quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Harald - do you have anything on small/coastal tankers in the NEI?



La Corona, NIT, NKTM all running tankers, NIT and NKTM the small ones.




We've been able to come up with a few coastals: Anastasia, Iris, Augustina, Angelina. Might be some more.

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 970
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 7:28:17 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen

We've been able to come up with a few coastals: Anastasia, Iris, Augustina, Angelina. Might be some more.


They're all in


< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 4/12/2010 9:57:47 AM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 971
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 7:46:16 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
I've found some old research results. No longer have sources (mostly mentions in various histories). These are the small tankers I've been able to identify (not yet cross checked against your posts).

Manpawa
Moesi
Minjak
Anastasia
Paula
Petronella
A. A. Penning
Aletta
Josefina
Angelina
Aldegonda
Armilla
P. J. Duinker
D. L. Kruithof
J. D. Schreijers
P. P. Buisman
J. M. G. den Hartog
Juno
B. C. J. Grootes
Djirak
Hermes
Iris
Augustina
Talang Akar
Sunetta
Benakat
Poseidon
Semiramis
Erinna
Pendopo

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 972
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 8:21:01 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Hi Don,

Moesi: Cargo! aka BEN 2
Minjak: Cargo! aka BEN 1
Manpawa: Cargo! aka BEN 4 Name: Mampawa, 468 tons, Sunk 420603 (Tjilatjap)

A. A. Penning: Captain (gezagvoerder) A. Penning Ship: Aldegonda aka TAN 5
P. J. Duinker: Captain (gezagvoerder) J. Duinker Ship: Pendopo aka TAN 4
D. L. Kruithof: Captain (gezagvoerder) L. Kruithoff Ship: Djirak aka TAN 3
J. D. Schreijers: Captain (gezagvoerder) D. Schreijers Ship: Juni aka TAN 2
P. P. Buisman: Captain (gezagvoerder) P. Buisman Ship: Petronella aka TAN 8
J. M. G. den Hartog: Captain (gezagvoerder) M.G. den Hartog Ship: Josefina aka TAN 6
B. C. J. Grootes: Captain (gezagvoerder) C.J. Grootes Ship: Benakat aka TAN 7

Djirak: see previous post
Talang Akar: see previous post
Benakat: see previous post
Pendopo: see previous post

Anastasia: NIT see previous post
Paula: NIT aka TAN 1 see previous post
Petronella: NIT aka TAN 8 see previous post
Aletta: NIT see previous post
Josefina: NIT aka TAN 6 see previous post
Angelina: NIT see previous post
Aldegonda: NIT aka TAN 5 see previous post
Juno: NIT aka TAN 2 see previous post
Iris: NIT see previous post
Augustina: NIT see previous post
Semiramis: NIT see previous post
Poseidon: NIT 696 tons, Sunk: 420308 (Tjilatjap)

Armilla Hermes Sunetta Erinna are fictional


how about these?
Asahan aka BEN 3, 75 tons, Sunk: March 1942 (Tjilatjap)
Minjak Tanah NNGPM, 187 tons
Soedoe NNGPM, 170 tons

Harald


< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 4/12/2010 9:59:33 AM >

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 973
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 8:44:58 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Thanks. I'll see if I can find any of the sources in my library and figure out how I mistook men for ships.

My data does show the "Ben" series as petrol tankers. We are debating what to do with these in Babes. One idea is to give them a mixed fuel/cargo capacity to represent the use of their cargo for small craft and aircraft fuel. With no gasoline type, gasoline powered small craft use fuel and air craft consume supply. Large number of AOG in US inventory.

I have:
TAN 1 = Paula
TAN 2 = Juno
TAN 3 = Djirak
TAN 4 = Pendopo
TAN 5 = Aldegonda
TAN 6 = Josefina
TAN 7 - missing in my data, now known to be Benakat
TAN 8 = Ambo

BEN 1 = Minjak
BEN 2 = Moesi
BEN 3 = Asaha (<100 tons)
BEN 4 = Mampawa

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 974
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 8:57:50 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
My data does show the "Ben" series as petrol tankers. We are debating what to do with these in Babes. One idea is to give them a mixed fuel/cargo capacity to represent the use of their cargo for small craft and aircraft fuel. With no gasoline type, gasoline powered small craft use fuel and air craft consume supply. Large number of AOG in US inventory.


they were not tankers, just cargo ships transporting fuel in drums

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
I have:
TAN 8 = Ambo


TAN 8 = Petronella

quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen
BEN 3 = Asaha (<100 tons)


Asahan

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 975
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/11/2010 9:55:02 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline
Still a little confused.

Womack ( http://www.amazon.com/Dutch-Naval-Force-Against-Japan/dp/078642365X ) - page 193 indicates that 10 small tankers were taken over from the Netherlands Colonial Steam Boat Company and that 8 received TAN names. It also identifies TAN 8 as Djirak.

Lenton ( http://www.amazon.com/Navies-Second-World-War-Netherlands/dp/B0000CO51C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271018773&sr=8-1 ) - page 153 lists TAN 1-6 plus 8, identifyig TAN 8 as Ambo.


(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 976
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/12/2010 10:12:36 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


Still a little confused.

Womack ( http://www.amazon.com/Dutch-Naval-Force-Against-Japan/dp/078642365X ) - page 193 indicates that 10 small tankers were taken over from the Netherlands Colonial Steam Boat Company and that 8 received TAN names. It also identifies TAN 8 as Djirak.

Lenton ( http://www.amazon.com/Navies-Second-World-War-Netherlands/dp/B0000CO51C/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1271018773&sr=8-1 ) - page 153 lists TAN 1-6 plus 8, identifyig TAN 8 as Ambo.




dr. Ph.M. Bosscher "De Koninklijke Marine in de Tweede Wereldoorlog volume 2" 1986 (standard work) identifies Petronella as TAN 8. Same with L.L. von Münching (Kon. Marine in de 2e Wereldoorlog, 1978) and C. Mark (Schepen van de Koninklijke Marine in W.O. II, 1997).

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 977
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/12/2010 11:50:44 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Don Bowen


also...






Makian Tonnage: 537 Sunk: 420304 (Tjilatjap)
Rokan Tonnage: 563 Sunk: 420305 (Tjilatjap)
Kampar Tonnage: 574 Sunk: 420306 (Tjilatjap)
Mandar Tonnage: 563 Sunk: 420304 (Tjilatjap)
Mapia Tonnage: 650 Seized after Feb. 1942 (Indragiri river)
Manipi Tonnage: 536 Sunk: 420304 (Tjilatjap)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 978
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/12/2010 3:49:15 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Koninklijke Marine updated!
Ship Class: TM 22 'OJR'
Ships: PMB 26, PMB 33

KPM updated!
Ship Classes: Merak 5/42, Merak 9/44
Ship: Merak

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 979
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/12/2010 5:59:49 PM   
Don Bowen


Posts: 8183
Joined: 7/13/2000
From: Georgetown, Texas, USA
Status: offline 		Thanks. I did not know that any of the lend-leased PTs made it to the Pacific!

(edit). Even more interesting. Not lend leased, ordered by Royal Netherlands Navy in the Canada and the US.

< Message edited by Don Bowen -- 4/12/2010 6:26:03 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 980
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/13/2010 4:51:05 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Thanks Harald. We’ll get as many as possible into DaBigBabes. We’ll probably mess with the proposed class changes some. Just fyi, here’s how we are defining merchant classes. There’s two groups, older and modern. Oldies have plumb bows, counter sterns, old style superstructure, tall thin funnels. Modern vessels have clipper bows, cruiser sterns, modern superstructure, shorter fatter funnels. They are paired up, and go in lpl ranges: 475-525’, 425-450’, 350-395’, 300-340’. Anything smaller than 300’ gets put into one of several ‘small’ classes going all the way down to about 100’. Here’s the (general) breakout, and a pic showing how the models differ – if we can’t find a picture of a given ship, we generally take 1928-30 as the break point between old and modern and assign it accordingly.

Southwest Cargo – 490’
Dominion L Cargo – 490’
Dominion M Cargo - 425’
Pacific L Cargo - 365’
Pacific M Cargo - 315’

Euro L Cargo – 500’
Empire L Cargo – 500’
Euro K Cargo – 435’
Euro M Cargo – 380’
Euro D Cargo - 330’





Attachment (1)

(in reply to Don Bowen)
Post #: 981
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/13/2010 6:33:30 PM   
JWE

 

Posts: 6580
Joined: 7/19/2005
Status: offline 		Also, we limited the “troopers” to those ship classes/groups that actually were affirmatively converted into troopships (Kotas, Poelaus, etc..). But don’t forget that any xAK with reasonable cargo capacity can also “troop” by cross loading. Your typical Euro K/Dominion M can carry over 900 troops cross loaded in cargo. Many vessels were used interchangeably as troopers and bulk carriers. Even though a ship might have been used to ‘troop’, it may well not have been affirmatively converted to the function; think the system models this fairly well and obviates the need to define certain vessels as a “troop” version – because once you convert, you can’t go back.

Mention all this so you will understand why we may not put some ships into the classes you suggest. We will, of course, evaluate them all, paying close attention to your suggestions. I have a friend from the Netherlands Antilles in the workgroup who is always on my brookie to make the Dutch perfect, as is Don Bowen. What you are doing for us is something special. Although we may have to tweak your suggestions a bit to have them fit into the game paradigm, believe me we are carefully listening. Please don’t stop.

Ciao. John

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 982
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/13/2010 10:42:56 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Thanks Harald. We’ll get as many as possible into DaBigBabes. We’ll probably mess with the proposed class changes some. Just fyi, here’s how we are defining merchant classes. There’s two groups, older and modern. Oldies have plumb bows, counter sterns, old style superstructure, tall thin funnels. Modern vessels have clipper bows, cruiser sterns, modern superstructure, shorter fatter funnels. They are paired up, and go in lpl ranges: 475-525’, 425-450’, 350-395’, 300-340’. Anything smaller than 300’ gets put into one of several ‘small’ classes going all the way down to about 100’. Here’s the (general) breakout, and a pic showing how the models differ – if we can’t find a picture of a given ship, we generally take 1928-30 as the break point between old and modern and assign it accordingly.



My proposed class changes were based on a) Shipowners (like KPM gets the Pacific-look) b) wether it is rated as passenger or general cargo c) GRT.
No doubt, your definition is much more sophisticated.

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 983
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/13/2010 11:00:58 PM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Also, we limited the “troopers” to those ship classes/groups that actually were affirmatively converted into troopships (Kotas, Poelaus, etc..). But don’t forget that any xAK with reasonable cargo capacity can also “troop” by cross loading. Your typical Euro K/Dominion M can carry over 900 troops cross loaded in cargo. Many vessels were used interchangeably as troopers and bulk carriers. Even though a ship might have been used to ‘troop’, it may well not have been affirmatively converted to the function; think the system models this fairly well and obviates the need to define certain vessels as a “troop” version – because once you convert, you can’t go back.



My intention was to limit the "troopers" as well. Far too many ships transporting livestock were designated as xAP, which they are not.


quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Mention all this so you will understand why we may not put some ships into the classes you suggest. We will, of course, evaluate them all, paying close attention to your suggestions. I have a friend from the Netherlands Antilles in the workgroup who is always on my brookie to make the Dutch perfect, as is Don Bowen. What you are doing for us is something special. Although we may have to tweak your suggestions a bit to have them fit into the game paradigm, believe me we are carefully listening.

Ciao. John



In the past I felt the class-decision, was somehow by chance. Now I think it's an individual decision to classify a given ship.

quote:

ORIGINAL: JWE

Please don’t stop.



Glad I could help. Just wanted to put in all the missing vessels. And at least the whereabouts of all those ships is now as close as it could be.

Harald

(in reply to JWE)
Post #: 984
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/20/2010 8:39:03 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		KPM ships

Schepen van de KPM

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/2/2010 5:09:26 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 985
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/20/2010 8:40:49 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Kon. Marine updated!

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/2/2010 7:04:11 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 986
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/20/2010 8:41:18 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		KPM updated!
Rotterdamsche lloyd updated!
JCJL updated!
HAL updated!
Nederland updated!
Oceaan updated!
VNS updated!
La Corona updated!

Sloet van de Beele added
Olivia added

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 2:37:30 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 987
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/20/2010 8:46:56 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		FG Class (Fak Fak, Flores, Garoet, Grissee)

All demolished on building slip. This class was almost identical to ABCDE Class (that is: Alor, Aroe, Bantam, Bogor, Ceram, Cheribon, Digoel, Djampea, Djember, Djombang, Endeh and Enggano)





Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 4/20/2010 8:55:01 AM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 988
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/20/2010 8:48:01 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Barentsz

AR (Repair Ship)







Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 12:37:16 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 989
RE: AE Naval and OOB Issues - 4/20/2010 8:48:34 AM   
Dutch_slith


Posts: 330
Joined: 7/21/2005
From: the Netherlands
Status: offline 		Boissevain




Attachment (1)

< Message edited by Harald Velemans -- 5/6/2010 12:39:05 PM >

(in reply to Dutch_slith)
Post #: 990
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