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militia casualties impasse - 4/16/2010 8:55:13 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline 		I was playing the 1792 scenario (which is a blast--thanks Yearworld), and ran into a problem. I don't think it's specific to the scenario, but it's a militia-related problem, and France starts that scenario with lots of militia, so that's probably why I haven't seen it before.

French army engages Prussian army, chooses outflank. I had left the militia as the pinning force, forgetting that I couldn't take those casualties past a morale loss of 2.0. When my outflanking force failed to arrive, I was not broken, but couldn't take the militia casualties, so I had to take them out of cavalry from those corps (ouch!).

So far, fine. My stupidity. However, when I ran out of cav factors, I still couldn't take militia, and the infantry in the outflanking force wasn't available since it hadn't arrived, so the game was just stuck and I had to crash the program.

I don't see this situation actually covered in the rules, so I'm not sure what's supposed to happen. (Maybe I missed it.) But either:

1) Militia factors can be taken because that's all that's left in the pinning force.

2) Infantry factors can be taken from the outflanking force even though it hasn't arrived and the side isn't broken. (This alternative makes the least sense to me.)

3) Pinning force is considered to have broken, so outflanking force becomes available for casualties.


Any of those (even #2) would be preferable to having to exit the game in the middle of a battle, which, had it been ftf, would probably have created some acrimony.
Post #: 1
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/16/2010 9:55:22 PM   
DCWhitworth


Posts: 676
Joined: 12/15/2007
From: Norwich, England
Status: offline 		Rule 11.2.9 states - "Where possible, militia casualties may be taken only until (not including) the round in which the cumulative morale loss of the army equals or exceeds “2.0”."

Rule 11.2.2 states that the outflanking force "are not included for combat purposes (which includes cavalry superiority) until they “arrive""

So rule 11.2.2 says the outflanking force are effectively not involved so the 'where possible' part of rule 11.2.9 kicks in as it is no longer possible to take any other casualties than militia in the situation you describe (there are no other troops present). Therefore #1 is the correct outcome.

< Message edited by DCWhitworth -- 4/16/2010 9:56:19 PM >

_____________________________

Regards
David

(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 2
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/16/2010 10:15:54 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline 		Thanks, David, that makes sense to me.

(in reply to DCWhitworth)
Post #: 3
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/19/2010 2:19:14 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Thanks for the help David!


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 4
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/19/2010 4:03:23 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Thanks for the help David!



But N.B. the game is not currently doing any of those things, but leaving an impasse. Is this already on Mantis? I don't have a save for this, but it should be easy to replicate. In any case a save would only get you so far, because you need the right die rolls in the battle to cause the problem, which arises when you have a pinning force of only militia, where the side is unbroken but has lost more than 2.0 morale (which can happen because the average morale includes the flanking force).

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 5
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/19/2010 4:25:26 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline
quote:

Rule 11.2.9 states - "Where possible, militia casualties may be taken only until (not including) the round in which the cumulative morale loss of the army equals or exceeds “2.0”."


"Where possible." The rule also indicates that losses incurred may be taken in any fashion within the given conditions. ndrose raises a good point and this is probably a valid game bug. The 11.2.9 condition assumes most of a force is non-militia and restricts cheap militia losses in lieu of more expensive non-militia losses. If losses are to be taken and only militia is available, then militia losses should be acceptable regardless of cumulative morale loss. The game should allow this.

(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 6
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/19/2010 4:58:08 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

If losses are to be taken and only militia is available, then militia losses should be acceptable regardless of cumulative morale loss. The game should allow this.


I believe (though I'm not sure) that the game does *generally* allow this. For instance, if you have a force that's half militia and half infantry, and you lose more than 2.0 morale but less than your cumulative morale, and you take all the inf casualties but still have more to take, I believe (but would have to test) that there's no problem doing this. But in the case above, there were still inf factors in the force--in the flanking force. So the game seemed to be thinking "you must take inf casualties, but they're in the flanking force, so you can't, but you must, but you can't...."

(in reply to pzgndr)
Post #: 7
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/20/2010 1:05:06 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline 		Huh? I'm really confused now???

_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 8
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/20/2010 4:45:19 PM   
ndrose

 

Posts: 612
Joined: 10/13/2006
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Huh? I'm really confused now???


The problem is not just that the game is incorrectly implementing a rule; it's reaching a dead end where you can't escape a battle screen except by alt-ctrl-del.

Here's the situation: you have a force composed partly of militia and partly of higher morale factors. You choose outflank and send all or most of the high morale factors around the flank, leaving the militia as the pinning force. If during the battle, the following conditions occur, you have an impasse:

1) your flanking force has not yet arrived

2) you have lost more than 2.0 morale

3) you have only militia left in the pinning force, with casualties still to take

In these circumstances, the game wants you to remove the casualties, but won't let you take them from any of the forces actually available on the screen. You're stuck.

I agree with David that the *right* solution should be to allow casualties from the militia in the pinning force if that's all there is. I don't know whether anyone has a different opinion, and I tried to list the possibilities above. But even a *wrong* solution that would let you get off the battle screen would be better than current, which makes you crash the game.

(in reply to Marshall Ellis)
Post #: 9
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/20/2010 4:49:24 PM   
Ted1066


Posts: 214
Joined: 12/10/2007
From: Vancouver, BC, Canada
Status: offline 		Higher value targets should be forced to be taken first in this situation (cav, gds, art), but in the absence of anything other than militia in the pinning force, militia losses beyond 2.0 morale should still be allowed/required from the pinning force. I have also encountered this, but from a long time ago. Its not a very likely scenario, but it occurs.

Cheers,

Ted

(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 10
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/20/2010 6:03:35 PM   
pzgndr

 

Posts: 3170
Joined: 3/18/2004
From: Maryland
Status: offline 		Marshall, the problem appears to be that the code does not sufficiently discriminate between the total forces engaged in a battle and those only engaged in the current round.  The code should not be including the outflanking force in condition checks until it actually arrives.  Rare problem perhaps, but it should be fixed.

(in reply to Ted1066)
Post #: 11
RE: militia casualties impasse - 4/21/2010 12:38:24 PM   
Marshall Ellis


Posts: 5630
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: Dallas
Status: offline
quote:

ORIGINAL: ndrose


quote:

ORIGINAL: Marshall Ellis

Huh? I'm really confused now???


The problem is not just that the game is incorrectly implementing a rule; it's reaching a dead end where you can't escape a battle screen except by alt-ctrl-del.

Here's the situation: you have a force composed partly of militia and partly of higher morale factors. You choose outflank and send all or most of the high morale factors around the flank, leaving the militia as the pinning force. If during the battle, the following conditions occur, you have an impasse:

1) your flanking force has not yet arrived

2) you have lost more than 2.0 morale

3) you have only militia left in the pinning force, with casualties still to take

In these circumstances, the game wants you to remove the casualties, but won't let you take them from any of the forces actually available on the screen. You're stuck.

I agree with David that the *right* solution should be to allow casualties from the militia in the pinning force if that's all there is. I don't know whether anyone has a different opinion, and I tried to list the possibilities above. But even a *wrong* solution that would let you get off the battle screen would be better than current, which makes you crash the game.


OK, I'm with you now. Can someone get me a good candidate battle? I can precode the die rolls to help move the scenario along so that I can dupe it.


_____________________________

Thank you

Marshall Ellis
Outflank Strategy War Games



(in reply to ndrose)
Post #: 12
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