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How do I deal with that? - 7/20/2002 3:21:56 PM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		Just made the first abortive landing on Shortland. #17 Allied March 43.

Imagine my surprise when I discovered that the Japanese have a garrison of no less than 54,000 troops on this island. I lost over 500 marines in their first attack and had to pull the survivors off the beach.

I can't imagine how much supply that garrison needs but it hasn't been getting any by sea for months and its had regular visits from the LBA's on Lunga and Neava for even longer.

Even so 54,000 is a hell of a force to have to overcome. Has anyone any advice?

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis
Post #: 1
- 7/20/2002 3:41:45 PM   
Sabre21


Posts: 8231
Joined: 4/27/2001
From: on a mountain in Idaho
Status: offline 		Nuke it:)

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 2
- 7/20/2002 4:03:42 PM   
HARD_SARGE

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		hI Didz
I had over 76000 in Shortland in mine, keep them with out supplies, do it long enough and they will drop at the first attack

plan the attack out well, fast transports to land the day after the troops get there, para drops to hit that day also

(I dropped the 1st and 2nd Marine Para and the 503 Para Reg, and the island fell before the troops got ashore)

the trick is to know when they have run out of food and are all sick and weak

for the main part, if the AA and coastal guns are not fireing, supply is low or gone, if your sweeps are killing lots of planes on the ground, but no Cap is in the air, supply is low

HARD_Sarge

Keep PT or DD TF in the harbor and a LR-Cap flying over the base to make sure nothing is sneaking though

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 3
- 7/20/2002 10:31:32 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Had you been running recon flights before landing? Did those flights not tell you how many troops were ashore? I'm just wondering, because I've not really tried to take an occupied base so far (the island hopping scheme coupled with a blackade seems to work very well for me).

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 4
- 7/20/2002 10:40:16 PM   
HARD_SARGE

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Hi BradFK
Recon will give you info, but not really numbers, you may get an idea of this unit or that one, but if there is a lot of units on a base, you only see so many of them

you may see that 3 units on the base are Inf and each has 1500 men, and then see 2 units are support and have 2000 men and the rest are just the types

on a small defended base, it is more then enough info, but a major base, it is not enough to make any plans from

which I am not really sure how well Recon reports numbers, when it says that the 141st Inf Reg has 1500 men, are those 1500 ready for action or are half of them at sick call

on a major base that I plan to attack, I pound it from all sides, recon included

HARD_Sarge

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 5
- 7/20/2002 10:51:46 PM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		I've been reconning all enemy bases, and it usually gives me listings such as:

infantry unit 3500 men
engineer unit 1500 men
AA unit 1200 men
engineer unit 1500 men
infantry unit 5400 men


Since the infantry is the stuff that you have to worry about, and about 1/3 of infantry are actual line troops, this gives me an idea as to what they have to fight with. I wholeheartedly agree with your system of starving them first, but I was concerned that maybe the recon wasn't giving enough information.

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 6
- 7/20/2002 10:58:45 PM   
HARD_SARGE

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Hi BradFK
well yes it gives you that info, but say you are looking at Lea with 5 units on it, you get a good idea what is there, but most of my games with Shortland, there may be 20 or 30 units on it by the time I am cutting it off, you only get info on the first so many units (think it is 9 ?)

remember one time, I seen 5 CD units on Shortland, and was thinking ohoh, then spend some time bombing and later recon showed 2 CD units on it, was thinking oh boy, must of blown them apart with the bombers, later on, showed no CD's, so sent in a light bombardment group to work over the boys, those 5 units were still there, only moved down the list by other troops who had showed up (glad I had a close base to limp back to)

HARD_Sarge

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 7
- 7/22/2002 9:42:31 AM   
bradfordkay

 

Posts: 8683
Joined: 3/24/2002
From: Olympia, WA
Status: offline 		Okay. So far I have seen a list of about 20 units or so at Rabaul (as many or more than I might have at Noumea or Brisbane), so I didn't realize that the game might not list all the units. It sounds like it pays to send a lot of F5A recon flights over any prospective invasion site. Just don't expect to learn about all the troops, eh?

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 8
- 7/22/2002 3:33:04 PM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by bradfordkay
[B]Okay. So far I have seen a list of about 20 units or so at Rabaul (as many or more than I might have at Noumea or Brisbane), so I didn't realize that the game might not list all the units. It sounds like it pays to send a lot of F5A recon flights over any prospective invasion site. Just don't expect to learn about all the troops, eh? [/B][/QUOTE]

To answer this and your earlier question.

No! I didn't run recon flights over Shortland. Unfortunately, its beyond the range of the Recon planes I have based at NG.

Having said that I'm playing with FOW off so I get a list of units when I click on the base anyway.

The unit list at Shortland shows the garrison consists of:

2 x Coastal Defence Units
1 x AA Unit
1 x HQ
4 x Engineer
3 x Infantry

However, this list and those provided for Rabaul, Kavieng and Truk do not quote the size of the units in men and guns even though smaller bases nearby like Vila, Bonis and Momote do, despite the fact that I have not visited them with a recon or bomber plane. I just assumed there was a limit to how many units tht could appear in a list together with such information.

Anyway, comparing the units on the Shortland list with information from other bases I figured an Engineer Unit represented about 300 men and an Infantry Unit from about 500 to 4,000 men.

So, my rough estimate of the strength at Shortland was:

3 x Infantry Unit = 12,000 men
4 x Engineer = 1,600 men

Say! 15,000 max.

I was therefore a bit surprised to find 54,000 men waiting for me when I landed.

Even on smaller bases I've landed expecting one infantry units with a strength of 520 men and found over 3,000 waiting for me when I make my assault. So it looks like the intel on ground forces is very unreliable even without FOW.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 9
- 7/22/2002 6:24:02 PM   
thantis

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Cooksville, MD
Status: offline 		Once the human player has taken Lunga as the US, Shortlands becomes the next Japanese bastion up the Solomons....The AI seems to put a lot of stake in holding it and pushes as many troops as it can get its hands on to protect it.

I also had an abortive invasion attempt & found over 60,000 troops waiting for me. Of course, I've now completely isolated them (no a drop of supply reaching them for over six months). I do believe that I will let them wither on the vine. Don't need to capture the base & its no threat to me (unless they decide they can walk on water :p ).

I find overkill to be the best solution for any invasion attempt. Unless you know a beach or base is undefended, I recommend sending as many troops as you can stuff in your APs. Always better to be prepared than be massacred.

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon.....

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 10
- 7/22/2002 6:25:55 PM   
HARD_SARGE

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Hi Didz
hmmm, I was waiting to go back in with the patch before I started looking around

one thing for intell/recon, we need to know what the info is that it is trying to show us, say a Inf unit, is it showing us all the men in the unit, all the fighting men in a unit, or men able to fight

I know during an attack, you get different info back, say you attack and the AI also attacked that turn, you may get a report of 6000 JP attacking and 7000 Allied defending, and then when the Allied attack comes in, you get 3500 Allied attacking and 11000 JP defending

so one report is only giveing you fighting troops for one side and all troops for the other

I know I tend to only look at the fighting men in a combat unit, but have been surprised a few times to see how support troops were there also

(as a side note, I am a Ex Marine, and we were known for being very lean, when it came to support, but even back then, I think the numbers were something like 10 support for every combat man in the unit(which I think other people were added in, as we were always guests of the Navy while we did our jobs))

HARD_Sarge

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 11
- 7/22/2002 6:34:49 PM   
HARD_SARGE

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Hi Thantis

I find overkill to be the best solution for any invasion attempt. Unless you know a beach or base is undefended, I recommend sending as many troops as you can stuff in your APs. Always better to be prepared than be massacred.

well yes, but...
if the troops on the base are able to fight, you are still going to have to be able to plan the attack and landings right, you send in 100 K in troops, but it going to take 3 to 5 days for all of them to land, you are going to get slaughtered, the first part of the troops who land are going to be shocked attacked right back into the seas, even worse if there are any CD units still working

I would still have to go for better planning then over kill, the 503rd Para and the 2 Marine Para are very useful, in helping the other troops get ashore

but, to each his own, and if it works, so much the better

HARD_Sarge

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 12
- 7/22/2002 6:36:38 PM   
Didz


Posts: 728
Joined: 10/2/2001
From: UK
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by HARD_SARGE
[B]Hi Didz
one thing for intell/recon, we need to know what the info is that it is trying to show us, say a Inf unit, is it showing us all the men in the unit, all the fighting men in a unit, or men able to fight

HARD_Sarge [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeh! I must admit that with the earlier invasions I put the discrepancies down to exactly that.

I would land with say 4,000 men and would be attacked (normally bombardment attacks only) by the enemy garrison of about 500 or 600 men without much effect.

Then once everyone was ashore and the beachhead secure I switch to the offensive and order a deliberate attack.

Suddenly, I get a combat report showing the enemy now has 3,000 plus troops defending the base.

I just assumed that these extra troops were cooks, clerks and sword polishers who got a rifle thrust into their hands when my attack commenced.

Shortlands was the first base where the initial counter-attack was significantly larger than I expected e.g. 54,000 instead of 15,000.

I'm not sure I even have the capacity to carry enough troops to combat that number of defenders.

_____________________________

Didz
Fortis balore et armis

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 13
- 7/22/2002 6:57:14 PM   
HARD_SARGE

 

Posts: 176
Joined: 5/27/2002
From: Cleveland, Ohio
Status: offline 		Hi Didz
yea I remember my first run in to Shortlands, was to be an Army attack, my Marines were to land the same day at Buin, take that and then a raider force to run to Buka, while the AI was busy trying to counter the attacks at Shortland, which I had a larger Marine TF sitting to the side, to make landings were most needed

all told, I think I had close to 30 K in Army troops and 15 K or so in Marines, Buin landings looked good, broke off the Raiders for Buka, a good chunk of the Army landed, took some heavy damage from the CD's but not enough to stop the landings, had 2 more Army Reg's loaded up and on the way

the next day, the Raiders landed, the back up Marines pulled into Harbor along with the next 2 Regs of Army troops, ready to start unloading in the morning, Buin fell, and Shortland attacked, 76000 men (mind you, 76000 attacked, not defended) killed almost every body on the benches

needless to say, the Marines were rerouted to Buin, the Army to Buka, anything on the shores was pulled off and all unloading was stopped

(stopped the game at that time and went back in as the JP to see if what I had seen was really there, and yes, 76000 fighting men with over 96000 total troops on Shortland)

said dang, AI pulled the wool over my eyes that time, took my lumps and changed my battle plans, BYPASS THE BUGGERS

HARD_Sarge

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 14
Hop that island - 7/22/2002 8:55:54 PM   
denisonh


Posts: 2194
Joined: 12/21/2001
From: Upstate SC
Status: offline 		HARD_Sarge is right with that one, just bypass it.

I would take the historical approach with a base at Munda then invade Bougainville.

_____________________________


"Life is tough, it's even tougher when you're stupid" -SGT John M. Stryker, USMC

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 15
Re: Hop that island - 7/22/2002 9:41:02 PM   
Scouters

 

Posts: 75
Joined: 4/1/2002
From: Tulsa, Oklahoma, USA
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by denisonh
[B]HARD_Sarge is right with that one, just bypass it.

[/B][/QUOTE]

I concur - the AI has thrown over 40k of its troops in jail and handed you the keys. Let 'em sit out the rest of the war eating bugs.

-Scouters

_____________________________

"You know, I've personally flown over 194 missions and I was shot down on every one. Come to think of it, I've never landed a plane in my life."

-Admiral Benson

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 16
- 7/22/2002 10:56:18 PM   
thantis

 

Posts: 185
Joined: 2/25/2002
From: Cooksville, MD
Status: offline 		Or each other...........:eek:

_____________________________

Never Underestimate the Power of a Small Tactical Nuclear Weapon.....

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 17
- 7/23/2002 1:05:38 AM   
Admiral DadMan


Posts: 3627
Joined: 2/22/2002
From: A Lion uses all its might to catch a Rabbit
Status: offline 		[QUOTE]Originally posted by thantis
[B]Or each other...........:eek: [/B][/QUOTE]Overheard on bypassed Shortland Is.:

"Hey man, you gonna eat that last finger?"

_____________________________

Scenario 127: "Scraps of Paper"
(\../)
(O.o)
(> <)

CVB Langley:

(in reply to Didz)
Post #: 18
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